ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

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ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by vetovian » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:06 am

Eleventh Annual VANCOUVER ESTIVAL TRIVIA OPEN
plus Ontario mirrors in HAMILTON and OTTAWA
SATURDAY, JULY 18, 2009

The Vancouver Estival Trivia Open (VETO) is the nation's longest-running annual quiz bowl tournament. There will be two mirrors in Ontario: one at McMaster University in Hamilton, and the other at the University of Ottawa. For up-to-date information, check the web page http://caql.org/events/veto09.html and the weblog http://veto.caql.org

There will be a bit of a departure from the "guerrilla" style of previous years. If you participated in VETO in the past few years, you'll recall that each team brought copies of its own original packet of questions, for use during one round of games, and this packet was not edited or seen by anyone else associated with the tournament.
What's new this year is that each team that is considered to be relatively inexperienced at quiz bowl writing will be paired off with a team that has one or more members who are more experienced in writing quiz bowl questions for Canadian players; the more experienced team will edit the less experienced team's packet. This means, of course, that each of these inexperienced teams will have to finish a packet and send it to its assigned editor by a deadline, which is Sunday, July 5.

Other than that, VETO will run the same as before:
* each team must bring copies of an original packet of questions, which will either have been edited by members of one other team, or will not have been seen by anyone else at the tournament;
* participants must moderate and keep score during rounds when they aren't playing.

Since there are three sites, every team must e-mail its packet to some assigned counterparts at the other sites a couple of days before the tournament. Some teams will also be asked to bring copies of packets to be received through e-mail from the other sites.

Check the CAQL results page for links to detailed reports of VETO in previous years.

COSTS

This event is FREE of charge for those playing at any site.

WHO CAN PLAY

VETO is an "open" tournament in the sense that we don't exclude anyone because of age, student status, degrees obtained or not obtained, nationality, etc. However, recognizing that people come to VETO with vastly different levels of experience, we'd like to give priority to those who have a history of providing good questions in the tossup/bonus format.

When you tell us who will be on your team, we'll decide whether to assign an editor to your packet. If you do get assigned an editor, your editor will be someone who will be playing in VETO at a different site from yours. (This is in order to allow everyone at your site to play on your packet.)

A team can have any number of players, but no more than four can play at a time. If you don't have a full team of four, we can match you up with other players. Solo teams are OK, too: we'll set the schedule so that other teams will have byes and you won't have to staff more than one room by yourself.

WHEN

Saturday, July 18, 2009, from about 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. local time.

For quiz bowl tourists, here is how VETO fits into the North American summer weekend quiz calendar:
* July 11: Sun 'n Fun at the University of South Florida in Tampa, with mirrors at the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities and the University of Maryland, College Park
* July 18: VETO
* July 25 - 26: Chicago Open
* August 1 - 2: Paléogénies XI, a francophone tournament in Rivière-du-Loup, Quebec
* August 8: VCU Open at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond

If you would like to participate in VETO, please notify us by Canada Day, July 1, 2009.

VANCOUVER LOCATION

We're hoping to return to downtown Vancouver and play at Simon Fraser University at Harbour Centre, but rooms haven't been confirmed yet.

HAMILTON LOCATION

In Hamilton, VETO will be held at McMaster University.
McMaster is about 45 minutes' drive from either downtown Toronto or Pearson International airport, which is Canada's busiest.
It's also about an hour's drive from Niagara Falls.

OTTAWA LOCATION

In Ottawa, VETO will be held at the University of Ottawa, which is just 1 kilometre from Parliament Hill.

FORMAT

Each team is responsible for a question packet, which may be edited by another assigned team as described above. The tournament will also be staffed by players. We'll play at least a full round-robin, as many rounds as packets from the two sites, likely ending in a site final (which some may consider an unfair format).

Games will be conducted according to NAQT rules, except that matches will be untimed, with 20 tossups per round, and there will be no 15-point "power" tossups.

QUESTION PACKETS

Detailed question guidelines are on a separate web page which includes a section with many, many useful reference links categorized by subject.

Rounds will be untimed, with 20 tossups played in each. But you will have to write more than 20 tossups and 20 bonuses, because you may need tie-breaking questions, or you may end up having to throw out some questions because of game errors or because they ask for information that already came up in somebody else's packet.

So your packet should include (at least):
* 24 tossups, each worth 10 points -- no 15-point "powers";
* 22 bonuses, each worth 30 points -- but no single-part, single-answer questions.

Use the following subject distribution for both tossups and bonuses:

Science, Math, Technology 3 -- 4
History 3 -- 4
Literature 3 -- 4
Geography 2 -- 3
Current Events 2 -- 3
Fine Arts 1 -- 2
Religion, Philosophy, Mythology 1 -- 2
Social Science 1 -- 2
Popular Culture, Games, Sports 1 -- 2
General Knowledge 0 -- 3

Canadian content quota:
Of the first 20 tossups, at least 4 must refer to Canadian people, places, things, events, and created works. The same goes for the first 20 bonuses. But overall, don't exceed 50% Canadian content in your packet. Your Canadian questions should also cover diverse subject areas and not be clustered in Geography or Literature, etc.

Tossups should include at least two separate clues, preferably at least four. Multiple-choice bonuses should be used sparingly, if at all, and should provide at least four choices.

In order that we can keep to a reasonable schedule, questions must not be too long:
* No tossup question, and no part of a bonus question, should exceed 6 lines if using a fixed-width font with 79 characters per line.
* No bonus question should ever require more than four separate team conferrals.

To promote fun and variety, teams are encouraged to bring multimedia questions (visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, gustatory). These tend to work better as bonuses than as tossups. Let us know if you plan to have any audio questions, so that we can arrange enough of the proper equipment to play them.
Every packet must contain at least one multimedia question: It can be as simple as presenting a printout of a picture you found through Google and asking a few questions about the picture.

For our further amusement, we encourage rounds with hidden themes. In the past four years, we've had:
* a packet in which every tossup answer was also the name of a school that had participated in the SmartAsk TV game show;
* a packet in which every answer contained the name of an animal;
* a packet in which every answer contained the syllable "NI";
* a packet in which every tossup answer began with the letter T, and every bonus had either answers beginning with the letter B or a theme that began with the letter B;
* a packet in which every tossup answer had some connection to the number two, and every bonus had some connection to the number three;
* a packet in which the answer to every tossup contained the number of the tossup.

The Stanford archive contains most of the question packets used at VETO in 2002 through 2008.

We've taken the list of answers that have come up in VETO in 2005 through 2007 and categorized them by subject. Try to write about things that are not on this list.

PRIZES

The leading individual scorer at VETO in Vancouver will take over the title of West Coast Dominatrix of Relevant Knowledge (WC-DORK).
The leading individual scorer at VETO in Hamilton will take over the title of Nerd Of The East (NOTE).

Anyone may sponsor a prize and select a winner according to any criteria. In the past, we've had up to 22 prizes awarded to invididuals and teams in a single VETO.

CONTACT

If you are interested in participating, please contact the appropriate site coordinator by Canada Day, July 1, 2009.
Vancouver: Peter at pmcc@alumni.sfu.ca (pmcc at alumni.sfu.ca)
Hamilton: Jay at senator_jay@hotmail.com (senator_jay at hotmail.com)
Ottawa: Ben at uotrivia@yahoo.ca (uotrivia at yahoo.ca)

Updates will be posted on the web page http://caql.org/events/veto09.html

"A lot of Imperialist ladies asked me to tea to meet schoolmasters from New Zealand and editors from Vancouver, and that was the dismalest business of all."
- John Buchan, The Thirty-Nine Steps
Peter, SFU alumnus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:10 am

I note with more than a little dismay that my suggestions for actually editing this tournament aren't going to be acted upon.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by vetovian » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:15 am

GETTING TO VANCOUVER

By road, Vancouver is about:
3 hours from Seattle;
9 hours from Eugene, Oregon;
18 hours from Berkeley, California;
24 hours from Irvine, California, or Las Vegas, Nevada;
39 hours from Tulsa, Oklahoma, or Chicago;
60 hours from Fairbanks.

Vancouver International Airport is a premier global gateway served by more than 40 airlines with scheduled direct flights from 31 communities in British Columbia, another 33 locations elsewhere in North America, 12 cities in Asia/Pacific, and 3 cities in Europe.

Devotees of Southwest Airlines or JetBlue may prefer to fly to Seattle/Tacoma and then take the Quick Shuttle or rent a car. Non-residents of Canada should have no problem driving an American rental car across the border, but Canadian residents aren't allowed to do this. Also keep in mind that even if it's cheaper to fly to Sea-Tac, if you factor in the time and money you spend on the 3 - 4 hours ground transportation each way, it may work out to be more worthwhile to take Air Canada or WestJet or another airline directly to Vancouver.

OTHER STUFF TO DO IN VANCOUVER

Separate studies released in 2008 by the U.K.-based Economist Intelligence Unit and in 2009 by the U.S.-based Mercer Human Resource Consulting both concluded that Vancouver offers the highest quality of life of any city in the entire world (or the world outside Switzerland and Austria, according to Mercer). An additional 2008 study by the Economist Intelligent Unit found that Vancouver is "the best place in the world to go on business". We are not exaggerating; check the links yourself.

This will also be an opportunity for you to look around the city before you return to attend the XXI Olympic Winter Games five months later.

Special events to entice you to come for VETO:
* The 32nd Annual Vancouver Folk Music Festival will take place on the same weekend as VETO.
* The XVII World Congress of Aesthetic Medicine is at the downtown convention centre and will also take place the same weekend as VETO.
* The 7th International Conference on Imagination and Education is at Harbour Centre and ends the same day as VETO.
* The day after VETO, you may choose to partake in:
- the 24th annual S.U.C.C.E.S.S. Walk with the Dragon in Stanley Park;
- the 7th annual Classic Car Show at the A & W restaurant on Lougheed Highway in suburban Coquitlam;
- the 21st Century Flea Market at the Croatian Cultural Centre on Commercial Drive.

The day before VETO, at noon on Friday, July 17, there will be a ceremony on the roof of Robert C. Brown Hall at Simon Fraser University's Burnaby campus, to celebrate exactly 10 years since the first VETO, which was also the first-ever quiz bowl tournament in western Canada.

See http://www.tourismvancouver.com for more information about Vancouver, including links to special promotions.

Read or listen to the French consul's poetic tribute to Vancouver: Parler de Vancouver, / C'est vancouversifier.
Peter, SFU alumnus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by vetovian » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:47 am

grapesmoker wrote:I note with more than a little dismay that my suggestions for actually editing this tournament aren't going to be acted upon.
Well, we haven't been able to find an editor for all the packets. I hope that with some of the packets being edited by others, players' overall VETO experience should be improved. The tossup in your signature was written by a team of people who were new to quiz bowl writing.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:31 am

vetovian wrote:
grapesmoker wrote:I note with more than a little dismay that my suggestions for actually editing this tournament aren't going to be acted upon.
Well, we haven't been able to find an editor for all the packets. I hope that with some of the packets being edited by others, players' overall VETO experience should be improved. The tossup in your signature was written by a team of people who were new to quiz bowl writing.
I should hope it was!

Why is there no one willing to do what every other quizbowl tournament does and edit?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by vetovian » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:39 am

everyday847 wrote:Why is there no one willing to do what every other quizbowl tournament does and edit?
The short answer is that we all want to play instead.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:54 am

I recall offering to edit this tournament two iterations ago.

Despite this, I also recall not being approached to edit this iteration.

I think Jerry may have a point, and the community at large here has every right to say what they are currently saying.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Not That Kind of Christian!! » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:59 am

I will offer not to fully edit these packets, both because I don't have time and because I'm not capable of editing some of the more VETO-specific content, but I will be happy to look over the set and do what I can. Alternately, assign me fewer packets to edit more deeply. Are you at least eliminating repeats?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:05 pm

HKirsch wrote:I will offer not to fully edit these packets, both because I don't have time and because I'm not capable of editing some of the more VETO-specific content, but I will be happy to look over the set and do what I can. Alternately, assign me fewer packets to edit more deeply. Are you at least eliminating repeats?
That's generally done on the fly, and then you get a prize (!) if you screw up. How novel!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:58 pm

vetovian wrote:
grapesmoker wrote:I note with more than a little dismay that my suggestions for actually editing this tournament aren't going to be acted upon.
Well, we haven't been able to find an editor for all the packets. I hope that with some of the packets being edited by others, players' overall VETO experience should be improved. The tossup in your signature was written by a team of people who were new to quiz bowl writing.
It doesn't take a quizbowl writing genius to realize that a tossup which contains clues referring to two distinct individuals may not be the best thing ever! You just have to be barely literate and be capable of understanding what words mean.

Here, how about this: I will happily edit any packets that come in on or before the last weekend of June. That's the most I can commit to at this point; if you're interested in taking me up on my offer, get your packets in early.
Jerry Vinokurov
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by women, fire and dangerous things » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:46 am

Hey, American Quizbowl luminaries Hannah Kirsch and Jerry Vinokurov have both offered to do what they can to help make this a good tournament, despite obviously being busy. I think it would be nice if we took them up on their offer. Maybe there's something to be said for VETO being a "different" tournament for people who don't like mainstream tournaments, but since it's the only major summer tournament in Canada (as far as I know), it would probably be in everyone's best interest to make this a good, mainstream tournament for the sake of Quizbowl unity and Canada maybe being able to compete with the States at Quizbowl. Of course, the organizers are free to do whatever they please, but if VETO continues to be run the same way it has for the last decade, I probably won't go, and I'm sure there are others who feel this way.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Camelopardalis » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:31 pm

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:I think it would be nice if we took them up on their offer.
Seconded.

EDIT: Oh, and thank you to Hannah and Jerry for their offer.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:54 am

I might as well use this thread to note that I have received a bunch of packets and will get to work on them this weekend. Thanks to those who have sent questions so far; I remind those who have not that the deadline to do so is midnight this Sunday.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Mike Bentley » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:55 am

grapesmoker wrote:I might as well use this thread to note that I have received a bunch of packets and will get to work on them this weekend. Thanks to those who have sent questions so far; I remind those who have not that the deadline to do so is midnight this Sunday.
Ours should be done tonight.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Camelopardalis » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:40 pm

Bentley Like Beckham wrote:
grapesmoker wrote:I might as well use this thread to note that I have received a bunch of packets and will get to work on them this weekend. Thanks to those who have sent questions so far; I remind those who have not that the deadline to do so is midnight this Sunday.
Ours should be done tonight.
As should mine.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Mike Bentley » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:06 am

Bentley Like Beckham wrote:
grapesmoker wrote:I might as well use this thread to note that I have received a bunch of packets and will get to work on them this weekend. Thanks to those who have sent questions so far; I remind those who have not that the deadline to do so is midnight this Sunday.
Ours should be done tonight.
By tonight I now mean Sunday.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:44 am

I am interested in playing VETO at Hamilton. However, I would need:

(1) a team to play on; and
(2) somebody to drive me to the tournament from Buffalo, NY

I don't know how to drive, so I can't get there myself.

FYI, my trade is being a history/rmp player. I can get lots of questions in those categories but don't really know anything at all about literature. Anybody interested?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:53 pm

Whig's Boson wrote:I am interested in playing VETO at Hamilton. However, I would need:

(1) a team to play on; and
(2) somebody to drive me to the tournament from Buffalo, NY

I don't know how to drive, so I can't get there myself.

FYI, my trade is being a history/rmp player. I can get lots of questions in those categories but don't really know anything at all about literature. Anybody interested?
Scratch this; I am flying into Toronto and playing the Hamilton mirror on Toronto D.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by MacSR » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:56 pm

Glad to hear that packets are being edited. Quick question: Do we get feedback on them?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by tarkvara » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:36 pm

VETO 2003 was my first-ever quiz-bowl tournament, and over the years I've preferred the anarchic lumpiness of the guerilla format to the stodgy homogeneity of many edited packet-sets. One of the best parts of VETO has always been the pleasant surprise at encountering a quirky, interesting, original question. All I can ask is that Jerry and Hannah remain true to the spirit of VETO and do their editing with a light hand. I still have nightmares about the lifeless husk which was all that remained after Jerry eviscerated^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hedited our ACF Winter submission. That being said, many thanks to Jerry and Hannah for offering to edit our little tournament.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by DumbJaques » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:16 pm

I still have nightmares about the lifeless husk which was all that remained after Jerry eviscerated^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hedited our ACF Winter submission.
Please perform the miracles of resurrection by posting your original submission in this thread.

Also Jerry, I am most troubled to learn of your radical interpretation of the duties of an editor. Is this bizarre system in which "editors" are forced to "edit" the questions going to be mandated for 2010 ACF Regionals? Because I didn't sign on for that kind of fascism.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:19 pm

DumbJaques wrote:
I still have nightmares about the lifeless husk which was all that remained after Jerry eviscerated^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hedited our ACF Winter submission.
Please perform the miracles of resurrection by posting your original submission in this thread.

Also Jerry, I am most troubled to learn of your radical interpretation of the duties of an editor. Is this bizarre system in which "editors" are forced to "edit" the questions going to be mandated for 2010 ACF Regionals? Because I didn't sign on for that kind of fascism.
Everyone knows Jerry is a raging and radical fascist. Your own ignorance of this when signing on is none of his concern.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:26 pm

Thanks to everyone who submitted packets. That should keep me busy for the next 3 weeks.
MacSR wrote:Glad to hear that packets are being edited. Quick question: Do we get feedback on them?
I will try to generate as much feedback as I can. My first priority will be obviously to edit the questions, and after that provide feedback. I think it'll be better to wait until after the tournament and ask specific questions because I doubt I will have the time to go over every packet and explain every edit.
VETO 2003 was my first-ever quiz-bowl tournament, and over the years I've preferred the anarchic lumpiness of the guerilla format to the stodgy homogeneity of many edited packet-sets. One of the best parts of VETO has always been the pleasant surprise at encountering a quirky, interesting, original question. All I can ask is that Jerry and Hannah remain true to the spirit of VETO and do their editing with a light hand. I still have nightmares about the lifeless husk which was all that remained after Jerry eviscerated^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hedited our ACF Winter submission. That being said, many thanks to Jerry and Hannah for offering to edit our little tournament.
Eric, I think everyone knew what they were getting into when they decided to send me their questions. I can't guarantee anything other than that I will do my best to preserve things that make for good quizbowl and remove things that make for bad quizbowl. Also, I hope you don't take our Winter editing decisions personally; we had some choices to make about packet combinations and editing choices, and we went with our best judgment at the time. If you have questions about specific editing decisions I'd be glad to try and answer them publicly or privately.
Also Jerry, I am most troubled to learn of your radical interpretation of the duties of an editor. Is this bizarre system in which "editors" are forced to "edit" the questions going to be mandated for 2010 ACF Regionals? Because I didn't sign on for that kind of fascism.
Then what kind of fascism did you sign up for? Besides, everyone knows working with me isn't like fascism at all; it's more like glorious socialist revolution.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:56 pm

grapesmoker wrote:Then what kind of fascism did you sign up for? Besides, everyone knows working with me isn't like fascism at all; it's more like glorious socialist revolution.
The revolution will not be televised; it will be thrown to the people in notebook form.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by tarkvara » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:04 am

grapesmoker wrote:I hope you don't take our Winter editing decisions personally; we had some choices to make about packet combinations and editing choices, and we went with our best judgment at the time.
Nothing personal; I chalk it up as a learning experience. It was the first time we had written questions for ACF packet, and nobody bothered to mention that there was a canon, so in hindsight it's understandable that the bulk of our questions would be rejected. It's just that it came as a shock at the time.

However, VETO has no canon and (in theory) an SCT-level difficulty threshold, so presumably that shouldn't be an issue this time. So there should be no reason to reject a tossup on ookpik or a bonus on the musical career of Charlie Angus.

Thanks again for editing. I still don't understand why you would want to edit something like VETO, but I'm appreciative nonetheless.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:59 am

I'll posit that it's impossible to construct a tournament that is both SCT level AND has no restrictions on answer space.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Mike Bentley » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:14 am

tarkvara wrote:So there should be no reason to reject a tossup on ookpik or a bonus on the musical career of Charlie Angus.
I can think of like 10 good reasons to reject those questions, and certainly hope Jerry does so for everyone's sake.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by tarkvara » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:56 am

Bentley Like Beckham wrote:I can think of like 10 good reasons to reject those questions, and certainly hope Jerry does so for everyone's sake.
Really? Please explain. Questions on Canadian cultural icons and prominent New Democrats have always been an essential part of VETO. Why would they be rejected? And why would some guy from Maryland care about VETO questions in the first place?

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Sir Thopas » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:59 am

Bentley Like Beckham wrote:
tarkvara wrote:So there should be no reason to reject a tossup on ookpik or a bonus on the musical career of Charlie Angus.
I can think of like 10 good reasons to reject those questions, and certainly hope Jerry does so for everyone's sake.
I hope they get replaced with tossups on Okot p'Bitek and Charles Mingus.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:07 am

tarkvara wrote:
Bentley Like Beckham wrote:I can think of like 10 good reasons to reject those questions, and certainly hope Jerry does so for everyone's sake.
Really? Please explain. Questions on Canadian cultural icons and prominent New Democrats have always been an essential part of VETO. Why would they be rejected? And why would some guy from Maryland care about VETO questions in the first place?

Eric Smith
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I don't write a tossup on American cultural icon apple pie because it's stupid. I don't pass a tossup on the porn career of Mary Carey, who ran for Governor of California when Arnold was elected, off as academic because it's not. However, you're suggesting that a packet should reasonably contain a tossup on a figurine that looks like an owl and the music career of an otherwise fairly influential politician. That's twelve kinds of insane.

Also, never use the "why is an outsider interested in the special, special way that we play quizbowl where it is okay for questions to be bad of course" argument again. Also, he's playing VETO, so wham, even if we were to use your unfair criterion where I don't get to care about VETO because I am not playing it, he does.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:14 pm

tarkvara wrote:However, VETO has no canon and (in theory) an SCT-level difficulty threshold, so presumably that shouldn't be an issue this time.
I don't really understand what this means. There is no special "VETO canon" of course, but that's quite beside the point. As I said before, what I'm trying to do is to make questions conform with the standards of good quizbowl.
So there should be no reason to reject a tossup on ookpik or a bonus on the musical career of Charlie Angus.
Well, I don't know what those things are; if they are vitally important to Canadian culture, then I could be convinced that they should be kept, but otherwise, I think not. Part of the problem with VETO (c.f. a final score of 90-75 from either last year or the year before) is that it included questions on things that were horribly obscure. This is bad and I'm going to fix that by rewriting things that I find to be too obscure. Perhaps a Canadian not playing this tournament could volunteer to be a reference for whether something is or is not important to Canadians; otherwise, I'll just use my best judgment.
Thanks again for editing. I still don't understand why you would want to edit something like VETO, but I'm appreciative nonetheless.
I want to help move VETO to a summer tournament (with a Canada influence of course) that can be enjoyed by all and that features good questions.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:20 pm

tarkvara wrote:Really? Please explain. Questions on Canadian cultural icons and prominent New Democrats have always been an essential part of VETO. Why would they be rejected?
I don't know who qualifies as a "prominent" New Democrat (well, Tommy Douglas, noted subject of an Emergency bonus, does). Just to compare, Mark Sanford is currently a prominent South Carolinian, but I'll be damned if I knew who he was 6 months ago. People fade in and out of prominence all the time, especially in politics, so questions about a random dude who did some thing that people in a different province might have cared about is not "prominent." If we're talking about a figure with actual national prominence, then of course I can see the motive for keeping that kind of question.
And why would some guy from Maryland care about VETO questions in the first place?
Andy already explained why this is a bad argument to make, so: don't make it! You're basically asking why people who do thing X care about thing X, and that can't go anywhere good.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:35 pm

TRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPLLLLLE POST

Would anyone at either of the Canadian sites object if Brown or some other Boston-area team had a "mirror" of VETO? I think there are enough people in the area who might enjoy playing in some sort of doubles or singles format.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:07 pm

I'm actually willing to believe that both:

1. A tournament with lots of Canadian teams has a larger canon of Canadian content than the typical American invitational.*

and

2. Writers should feel free to explore the edges of the canon at unusual summer events.

But those are both still a long way from the claim that the tournament lacks a canon entirely. Indeed, if it is meant to be roughly the same difficulty as DI SCT, the canon is likely to be very similar to that of ACF Regionals anyway (and if it's not, that might explain an 90-75 game...)

* I had never heard of an ookpik before this thread, so I won't comment on that. Better example:
VETO 2006 wrote:3. Andrew Hamilton Gault put up $100,000 to finance its formation, which officially took place on August 10th, 1914. Nine days later it was fully manned. Its members won two Victoria Crosses at Passchendaele and another at Parvillers, and participated in the Sicilian campaign in World War II. More recently, Operation Apollo saw 700 members of its third battalion deployed to Afghanistan. For ten points, identify this Winnipeg- and Edmonton-based regiment, named for a granddaughter of Queen Victoria.
ANSWER: Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
This is an interesting and important topic: but one that I'd reject as too difficult for any tournament with a primarily American audience. Now then: a tournament whose main site is in western Canada? Sure, no problem, likely to be answered at something much closer to an acceptable rate.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:11 pm

I personally like the idea of finding a Canadian who won't be playing VETO to act as a sounding board for Jerry, because I know if I were editing a Canadian themed tournament I would have no idea what's going on for those questions. Do we know of anyone who wont be there?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:28 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:I personally like the idea of finding a Canadian who won't be playing VETO to act as a sounding board for Jerry, because I know if I were editing a Canadian themed tournament I would have no idea what's going on for those questions. Do we know of anyone who wont be there?
I have a Canadian friend in the physics department whom I can rely on in a pinch. He's not a quizbowl player, but he knows stuff, so if no one steps forward I should be able to make do.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:34 pm

grapesmoker wrote:TRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPLLLLLE POST

Would anyone at either of the Canadian sites object if Brown or some other Boston-area team had a "mirror" of VETO? I think there are enough people in the area who might enjoy playing in some sort of doubles or singles format.
Finish the tournament early, or at least get it in a playtestable condition by like the eighth, and I'll be in the area to play it. If that's not temptation enough!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:40 pm

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:
grapesmoker wrote:TRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPLLLLLE POST

Would anyone at either of the Canadian sites object if Brown or some other Boston-area team had a "mirror" of VETO? I think there are enough people in the area who might enjoy playing in some sort of doubles or singles format.
Finish the tournament early, or at least get it in a playtestable condition by like the eighth, and I'll be in the area to play it. If that's not temptation enough!
Aren't you helping me with the bio and chem?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:18 pm

I planned on it but hadn't gotten any emails from you so I didn't know if my help wasn't needed. I'd love to.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by DumbJaques » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:22 pm

If this is done by the weekend before (or at least done in some substantial portion), we could run some kind of doubles thing at Maryland during Sun n Fun Weekend.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:53 pm

DumbJaques wrote:If this is done by the weekend before (or at least done in some substantial portion), we could run some kind of doubles thing at Maryland during Sun n Fun Weekend.
Have you ever heard of a tournament finishing a week before schedule?!

In all seriousness, I'll be doing my best to do as much as I can as fast as I can, and if there's anything worth playing at Sun-n-Fun, I'll bring it with me. Also, Andy, your help on the science would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:00 pm

I won't be at the Maryland site, but if people in Minneapolis where I might or might not be headed aren't going to VETO, I'd kind of enjoy playing the original submissions just to play them.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:27 pm

Jerry:

I won't be playing VETO due to Scrabble commitments. If you need to bounce anything off me, I can be reached at andy-at-andysthoughts-dot-com.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Matt Weiner » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:29 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:I won't be at the Maryland site, but if people in Minneapolis where I might or might not be headed aren't going to VETO, I'd kind of enjoy playing the original submissions just to play them.
I would kind of like to do this at Maryland.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by tarkvara » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:23 pm

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Also, never use the "why is an outsider interested in the special, special way that we play quizbowl where it is okay for questions to be bad of course" argument again.
I must respectfully disagree. Part of what has always made VETO enjoyable is the anything-goes nature of the questions. Some of the most enjoyable questions of VETOs past have been questions (tasting unidentified white powders, acting out ballet positions, etc.) which anyone here would surely reject as being "bad". So yes, part of the charm of VETO really has been the "special, special way that we play quizbowl where it is okay for questions to be bad".
Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Also, he's playing VETO, so wham, even if we were to use your unfair criterion where I don't get to care about VETO because I am not playing it, he does.
Sorry, I had no idea he was playing VETO. I had always understood that VETO's reputation among American quiz-bowlers was so low that none of you would deign to play here. I stand corrected.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by AKKOLADE » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:49 pm

tarkvara wrote:
Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Also, never use the "why is an outsider interested in the special, special way that we play quizbowl where it is okay for questions to be bad of course" argument again.
I must respectfully disagree. Part of what has always made VETO enjoyable is the anything-goes nature of the questions. Some of the most enjoyable questions of VETOs past have been questions (tasting unidentified white powders, acting out ballet positions, etc.) which anyone here would surely reject as being "bad". So yes, part of the charm of VETO really has been the "special, special way that we play quizbowl where it is okay for questions to be bad".
If you're disagreeing with his point that VETO's questions aren't a big issues, ok, whatever (even though I think you're wrong).

If you're disagreeing with his point that people who are not in area X should not care about the state of quiz bowl in area X, then that's wrong. The purpose of this site is to discuss quiz bowl; if someone wishes to point out faults or criticize a tournament, regardless of where it is, there's nothing wrong with that. People from other areas can be very helpful when it comes to improving quiz bowl.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:17 pm

tarkvara wrote: tasting unidentified white powders
Does this sound...REALLY sketchy to anyone else?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:49 pm

tarkvara wrote:
Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Also, never use the "why is an outsider interested in the special, special way that we play quizbowl where it is okay for questions to be bad of course" argument again.
I must respectfully disagree. Part of what has always made VETO enjoyable is the anything-goes nature of the questions. Some of the most enjoyable questions of VETOs past have been questions (tasting unidentified white powders, acting out ballet positions, etc.) which anyone here would surely reject as being "bad". So yes, part of the charm of VETO really has been the "special, special way that we play quizbowl where it is okay for questions to be bad".
I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Pittsburgh and not be concerned about what happens in Vancouver. Bad quizbowl anywhere is a threat to quizbowl everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside North America can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:17 pm

Caveat: I am not Canadian and I am not playing VETO.

This argument that VETO is this special special tournament where it's okay for bad questions to happen would hold more water with me if not for the fact that the organizers of VETO set up the editing system, first with the experienced/inexperienced team system and then in taking up outsiders like Jerry's offer to help edit. If everyone in VETO was okay with business as usual and bad questions for all (whatever that means), then they did not have to set up any editing system. Jerry did not stage a sit-in at VETO and demand that the questions conform, he merely spoke for a number of the people on this forum (including past VETO attendees) that they would be more willing to participate in VETO if the questions were of a better written, higher quality. The organizers of VETO apparently agreed.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: VETO 7/18/2009 in Vancouver, Hamilton, Ottawa

Post by Not That Kind of Christian!! » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:18 pm

grapesmoker wrote:
DumbJaques wrote:If this is done by the weekend before (or at least done in some substantial portion), we could run some kind of doubles thing at Maryland during Sun n Fun Weekend.
Have you ever heard of a tournament finishing a week before schedule?!

In all seriousness, I'll be doing my best to do as much as I can as fast as I can, and if there's anything worth playing at Sun-n-Fun, I'll bring it with me. Also, Andy, your help on the science would be greatly appreciated.
I'll take some arts and lit off your hands if you're still interested in help.
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