ACF Fall for high schoolers

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heterodyne
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Re: ACF Fall for high schoolers

Post by heterodyne » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:38 am

in on these shenanigans wrote:
heterodyne wrote:
The Last 21 Stanley Cup Winners wrote: Kinda off-thread now, but you need to unknowingly get dragged to only one collegiate event as a ninth grader to meet ACF's packet submission requirement two years later.
So outside of Texas, there is only one high schooler who would have to write a packet this year. In TX there are likely a few more but those stats aren't on the DB and I don't feel like going to Romero's site to check them. I don't think that this is an actual phenomenon.
False; this happens more often than you think.
I was under the impression that the HS mirrors in 2013 and 2014 had a specific dispensation that they wouldn't trigger the packet requirement?

EDIT: Apparently that's a constructed memory or something. Whoops.
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Re: ACF Fall for high schoolers

Post by Benin Rebirth Party » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:48 am

heterodyne wrote:
The Last 21 Stanley Cup Winners wrote: Kinda off-thread now, but you need to unknowingly get dragged to only one collegiate event as a ninth grader to meet ACF's packet submission requirement two years later.
So outside of Texas, there is only one high schooler who would have to write a packet this year. In TX there are likely a few more but those stats aren't on the DB and I don't feel like going to Romero's site to check them. I don't think that this is an actual phenomenon.
Current ACF Nationals Champion Patrick Liao took me to two collegiate tournaments while I was in grade 10. I suspect any weak collegiate region could have strong high school presence, even if the high schoolers themselves aren't thaaaat good. ANGST in the summer of 2010 was something like my third collegiate tournament and also saw tenth grader Rein Otsason make his collegiate debut. Maybe this actually isn't a real thing outside of Canada back in the early 2010s, a time that Ben Smith called the dark ages of Canadian Quizbowl, but it still affected one region.
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Re: ACF Fall for high schoolers

Post by gustavadolf » Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:51 pm

http://www.hsquizbowl.org/db/tournament ... _no_final/

(Romero didn't run ACF Fall last year)
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Re: ACF Fall for high schoolers

Post by heterodyne » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:35 pm

gustavadolf wrote:http://www.hsquizbowl.org/db/tournament ... _no_final/

(Romero didn't run ACF Fall last year)
The pertinent one for this year's packet requirement is 2013, which he did run.
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Re: ACF Fall for high schoolers

Post by Maury Island incident » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:36 pm

heterodyne wrote:
gustavadolf wrote:http://www.hsquizbowl.org/db/tournament ... _no_final/

(Romero didn't run ACF Fall last year)
The pertinent one for this year's packet requirement is 2013, which he did run.
Still, the fact that LASA sent an F team means that there are certainly freshmen and sophomores out there playing collegiate tournaments.
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Re: ACF Fall for high schoolers

Post by gaurav.kandlikar » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:47 am

Thanks to everyone who provided valuable input on this topic. We've announced some changes to this year's HS mirrors of ACF Fall here. Hosts should be updating their announcements to reflect these changes soon. Feel free to email us with any questions.
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Re: ACF Fall for high schoolers

Post by Guile Island » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:22 am

Just out of curiosity because someone else will probably have this question: now that High School only mirrors of Fall are not packet-required, does playing a HS mirror of Fall still start the two-year exemption window for purposes of future packet requirements?
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Re: ACF Fall for high schoolers

Post by dhumphreys17 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:59 am

I know I'm probably the least qualified person on this thread to give an opinion on this topic, but I'm going to do so anyway, because I have a strong opinion on this issue.

As I understand it (and I certainly don't speak for ACF or anyone else), ACF's packet submission guidelines applied to high schoolers because they were being treated like collegiate teams. They were playing in collegiate events against collegiate teams, so if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Going on a more logical tangent, I will use two assumptions, a caveat and a clarification to make an accompanying conclusion:

ASSUMPTION 1. For collegiate-level events, seasoned participating teams should contribute to the creation of the packet set. (Contrapositive: For non-collegiate events, participating teams should not contribute to the creation of the packet set.)
ASSUMPTION 2. Teams considered collegiate teams write questions for collegiate-level events.
CAVEAT. High school mirrors of collegiate-level events don't count as collegiate-level events, even though they're run on the same questions.
CLARIFICATION. Any team playing at a collegiate-level event is defined as a collegiate team.
CONCLUSION. Teams playing at a high school mirror of ACF Fall should not write questions for it, as under Assumption 1 and the Caveat, it isn't a collegiate event.

That's the logic of the matter as I see it. It's a tangled web, but it boils down to this: until recently, ACF held high schools that participated in its tournaments to the same standards as colleges in terms of ability to participate and expectation of contribution to the packet set. Now that the standard isn't the same (high schools aren't able to participate in collegiate-level ACF Fall, see the Caveat), so should that expectation.

On the monetary issue, I agree with most of the people in this thread: if ACF wants to charge high school teams $120 to play a collegiate set, even if they aren't playing against other collegiate teams, then they have every right to do that, and it's a reasonable notion. However, ACF should perhaps consider a drop in the fee if they want to expand the set's target audience to high schools.

At the end of the day, I think ACF is in a somewhat uncomfortable position caused by the evolution of quiz bowl in general. There's a good number of high schools that are looking for something harder to play than NAQT-IS or your average HS housewrite, and HSNCT and PACE are only once (twice?) a year. ACF Fall quenches that thirst, but it's target audience is collegiate teams. The problem is that ACF is run on the philosophy that participating, seasoned teams submit questions, which is toxic to high school participation.
heterodyne wrote:If you've played enough to meet ACFs packet submission requirement then I think you can handle a half packet of fall level questions.
OK, but take a team like ours for example. Our team wouldn't want to play against collegiate teams (we're still at a point in our development when we'd be totally crushed by them) even if we could. But a competitive high school mirror of ACF Fall would be enticing, as we've qualified for PACE and need to prepare in order to contend in a smaller field that generally speaking consists of the top 100 teams at HSNCT without the other 172 teams as a buffer, and PACE's questions are tough in comparison to HSNCT. None of our players have ever played ACF, so we wouldn't have to worry about packet submission for our first tourney of this type. However, after that, we'd be expected to submit a half-packet. Our team doesn't have the infrastructure to create a half-packet that's subject-balanced, so we'd go to an NAQT invitational instead. Other teams may be in the same scenario. To rephrase, "enough" means "one ACF Fall tournament". I'm simply not sure that's fair.

EDIT: So ACF's Global announcement says that HS-only mirrors don't have to submit packets for ACF Fall. Mea culpa. No grievance on that front anymore, so no grievance whatsoever.

That's my two cents. Thank goodness I'm not entitled to three.
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