QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Anything that's on topic but doesn't fit elsewhere, including related events that might be of interest to quizbowl players.
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QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Stained Diviner »

Some of us are going to do some work on QBWiki in the next few days. I am going to start another thread that is more theoretical than this one. In this thread I am looking for suggestions along the lines of:
* Some pages do W well, and I think that more pages should do it.
* There should be a page on X.
* The Y templates should include Z.
* Here are some important pages that should be updated.

Keep in mind that I am looking more for things that should be added or improved rather than things that should be deleted. Also, if it's a topic that you know a lot more about than most community members, it might be easier for you to do the work yourself. That being said, if we like your idea and it's something we can do, then we will spend hours doing it.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Snoopy »

There are dozens if not hundreds of pages that exist but say "this page has no content" (like this one). I'm thinking this was a server error at some point, though it seems like more pages are lost every time I go back there. I think that would be a good place to start.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Snoopy »

I also just recalled this page, which is great and I think should be done for every state.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by vinteuil »

Snoopy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:49 am There are dozens if not hundreds of pages that exist but say "this page has no content" (like this one). I'm thinking this was a server error at some point, though it seems like more pages are lost every time I go back there. I think that would be a good place to start.
This is just how MediaWiki deals with nonexistent pages: see https://www.qbwiki.com/wiki/Asdfasadf
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by jonah »

vinteuil wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:56 am
Snoopy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:49 amThere are dozens if not hundreds of pages that exist but say "this page has no content" (like this one). I'm thinking this was a server error at some point, though it seems like more pages are lost every time I go back there. I think that would be a good place to start.
This is just how MediaWiki deals with nonexistent pages: see https://www.qbwiki.com/wiki/Asdfasadf
I think some pages were actually lost—possibly those with only one revision. Ophir emailed me about this a while ago. I have no idea how or why that might have happened. (It might have happened during migration from when Mike Bentley hosted it, but it might have been more recent. If it was my fault, I'm very sorry!)

Note that "Andrew Kincaid" has "Read", "Edit", and "View history" tabs, while "Asdfasadf" only has "Create".
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Snoopy »

All the pages in question have blue links when you click on them; many of them have/are in categories even if they don't show up on the bottom. They existed at some point for certain.

Edit: I found it; every page with a page creation date of 24 January 2010 is gone. I'm absolutely certain they were there as recently as 2016, because I recall looking at them when I was in high school. No others seem to be affected.

Edit 2: This totals a loss of 374 pages. Massive and irreparable if no backup can be found.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by meebles127 »

I've suggested this elsewhere but I believe that the buzzer systems thread needs an overhaul. It's extremely outdated and that is what lead me to write my buzzer systems thread last year. I'm more than willing to update this page to help teams get strong and durable buzzer systems in their hands
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by vinteuil »

meebles127 wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:48 pm I've suggested this elsewhere but I believe that the buzzer systems thread needs an overhaul. It's extremely outdated and that is what lead me to write my buzzer systems thread last year. I'm more than willing to update this page to help teams get strong and durable buzzer systems in their hands
I look forward to this revision!

Readers of this thread should remember that the entire point of a wiki is that anybody (in this case, anybody in the quizbowl community) is welcome to contribute, and nobody needs to be "licensed" to make changes, even to authoritative-seeming or old articles. (Although I wouldn't encourage editing the articles that are literal archives of essays/posts written elsewhere.)
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Ciorwrong »

vinteuil wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:06 pm
meebles127 wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:48 pm I've suggested this elsewhere but I believe that the buzzer systems thread needs an overhaul. It's extremely outdated and that is what lead me to write my buzzer systems thread last year. I'm more than willing to update this page to help teams get strong and durable buzzer systems in their hands
I look forward to this revision!

Readers of this thread should remember that the entire point of a wiki is that anybody (in this case, anybody in the quizbowl community) is welcome to contribute, and nobody needs to be "licensed" to make changes, even to authoritative-seeming or old articles. (Although I wouldn't encourage editing the articles that are literal archives of essays/posts written elsewhere.)
The issue at least for less-informed people such as myself, is that there are some articles which are hopelessly out of date. As a result, it would take a ton of work to revise them. I don't know many people who could restore 10 years of history to articles like this.

I think a good goal is to have all the College clubs pages have accurate and up to date information on current players and leadership. Not everyone needs to have a page made for them (I certainly don't need a page for example) but I think it would be helpful to know that, for example Dustin Lieu, is not currently leading the USC team.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by ScoBo »

Snoopy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:51 am I also just recalled this page, which is great and I think should be done for every state.
Thanks! As it grows, the table is becoming more of a pain to edit in Wiki markup and I've been wondering if there is a better way to structure it. (The giant table format would be much easier to deal with in something like a Google Spreadsheet.) After I updated it for HSNCT last year, I added a comment on that page's discussion tab expressing this concern. If anyone has any ideas for a potentially better way to structure this kind of page, I'd love to hear them.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Stained Diviner »

vinteuil wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:06 pm
meebles127 wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:48 pm I've suggested this elsewhere but I believe that the buzzer systems thread needs an overhaul. It's extremely outdated and that is what lead me to write my buzzer systems thread last year. I'm more than willing to update this page to help teams get strong and durable buzzer systems in their hands
I look forward to this revision!

Readers of this thread should remember that the entire point of a wiki is that anybody (in this case, anybody in the quizbowl community) is welcome to contribute, and nobody needs to be "licensed" to make changes, even to authoritative-seeming or old articles. (Although I wouldn't encourage editing the articles that are literal archives of essays/posts written elsewhere.)
While this is definitely true, I'll add that this thread could be a once in a lifetime chance to tell other people what to do on QBWiki, and this is a good place to point out that an important page is bad.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Mike Bentley »

jonah wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:03 pm
vinteuil wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:56 am
Snoopy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:49 amThere are dozens if not hundreds of pages that exist but say "this page has no content" (like this one). I'm thinking this was a server error at some point, though it seems like more pages are lost every time I go back there. I think that would be a good place to start.
This is just how MediaWiki deals with nonexistent pages: see https://www.qbwiki.com/wiki/Asdfasadf
I think some pages were actually lost—possibly those with only one revision. Ophir emailed me about this a while ago. I have no idea how or why that might have happened. (It might have happened during migration from when Mike Bentley hosted it, but it might have been more recent. If it was my fault, I'm very sorry!)

Note that "Andrew Kincaid" has "Read", "Edit", and "View history" tabs, while "Asdfasadf" only has "Create".
I had forgotten I used to host this wiki. Fun fact: we used to edit some Maryland high school tournaments via MediaWiki back in the days before Google Docs was a thing. It was a reasonably good way to collaboratively edit documents.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by jonah »

Mike Bentley wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:20 pm
jonah wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:03 pm
vinteuil wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:56 am
Snoopy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:49 amThere are dozens if not hundreds of pages that exist but say "this page has no content" (like this one). I'm thinking this was a server error at some point, though it seems like more pages are lost every time I go back there. I think that would be a good place to start.
This is just how MediaWiki deals with nonexistent pages: see https://www.qbwiki.com/wiki/Asdfasadf
I think some pages were actually lost—possibly those with only one revision. Ophir emailed me about this a while ago. I have no idea how or why that might have happened. (It might have happened during migration from when Mike Bentley hosted it, but it might have been more recent. If it was my fault, I'm very sorry!)

Note that "Andrew Kincaid" has "Read", "Edit", and "View history" tabs, while "Asdfasadf" only has "Create".
I had forgotten I used to host this wiki. Fun fact: we used to edit some Maryland high school tournaments via MediaWiki back in the days before Google Docs was a thing. It was a reasonably good way to collaboratively edit documents.
Oh yeah, I used MediaWiki for writing/editing several tournaments too. It mostly worked pretty well.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by meebles127 »

vinteuil wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:06 pm
meebles127 wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:48 pm I've suggested this elsewhere but I believe that the buzzer systems thread needs an overhaul. It's extremely outdated and that is what lead me to write my buzzer systems thread last year. I'm more than willing to update this page to help teams get strong and durable buzzer systems in their hands
I look forward to this revision!
The buzzer systems page has been updated to better reflect more up to date information.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by BenWeiner27 »

Snoopy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:51 am I also just recalled this page, which is great and I think should be done for every state.
In addition to nationals finishes, I think that it would also be cool if every state had its own page where it lists all the tournament winners from a state/circuit's history (at least definitely state championships and other major tournaments) where they could be viewed in a convenient table.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Ben Dillon »

BenWeiner27 wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:37 am In addition to nationals finishes, I think that it would also be cool if every state had its own page where it lists all the tournament winners from a state/circuit's history (at least definitely state championships and other major tournaments) where they could be viewed in a convenient table.
What if many of these tournaments would be considered "bad quiz bowl"? Should those be listed at all? For example, I've listed *every* Indiana competition at INQBlots in the interests of preserving the history of quiz bowl back to 1974, but the first NAQT tourney wasn't until 2001.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by AGoodMan »

I tried to look into this awhile back and talked with Jonah about it, but is it possible to add citation templates like in Wikipedia? By this I mean when you edit Wikipedia, you can add sources and format them in a specific manner, which will show up in a References or Citations section toward the bottom of the page. I guess this is sort of low priority, but I think this could help make the Wiki look a bit more official.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by cwasims »

I did some work on the Toronto page recently, and I'm fairly happy with how it turned out: https://www.qbwiki.com/wiki/Toronto

I think Wiki pages for clubs should use some transparent and (ideally) verifiable criteria for determining who gets listed in the membership section: I don't think everyone who has played for a team need to be listed, and I laid out what I think is a reasonable proxy for the involvement/skill that I think warrants being recognized on a Wiki page. I would also recommend just listing names in paragraph as opposed to bullet form as it takes up much less space on the page.

There used to be write-ups from some random tournaments that aren't really that important - I elected to delete those and make a table with results from SCT, ICT, ACF Regionals, and ACF Nationals, since I think those give a good sense of the club's regional and national ranking over time, as well as its size (insofar as the number of teams sent to those tournaments is indicative of the overall club's size).

I ended up deleting the hosted tournaments section - I don't really think this is very important, and it would take a while to bring it up to date since U of T hosts a lot of tournaments. I left the history section basically intact since it's the only source we have.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Santa Claus »

Are we going to ever change the guidelines for what information shows up on players’ pages? With the exception of really old stats that longer exist elsewhere, someone could fairly easily find tournament results for basically anybody thanks to Harry’s database, but this is the only information that literally can’t be deleted or Jonah will threaten to ban you. Meanwhile, it is strongly discouraged to include quotes and anecdotes about players, when that is almost certainly the most lasting impression that many players have on the community. As a result, the people with the most-fleshed out articles are usually high schoolers who have included every tournament they have ever played in (and Charles Hang) and many of the players who are currently active in college might have a sentence dedicated to their t-51st HSNCT placement and nothing about their active role in the community since.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Stained Diviner »

ScoBo wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:29 pm
Snoopy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:51 am I also just recalled this page, which is great and I think should be done for every state.
Thanks! As it grows, the table is becoming more of a pain to edit in Wiki markup and I've been wondering if there is a better way to structure it. (The giant table format would be much easier to deal with in something like a Google Spreadsheet.) After I updated it for HSNCT last year, I added a comment on that page's discussion tab expressing this concern. If anyone has any ideas for a potentially better way to structure this kind of page, I'd love to hear them.
This looks like a good way to do it, but no guarantees.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Santa Claus wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:45 amWith the exception of really old stats that longer exist elsewhere, someone could fairly easily find tournament results for basically anybody thanks to Harry’s database, but this is the only information that literally can’t be deleted or Jonah will threaten to ban you. Meanwhile, it is strongly discouraged to include quotes and anecdotes about players, when that is almost certainly the most lasting impression that many players have on the community.
Is this something we should have a conversation about? We should probably decide as a community what the QBWiki pages should contain.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Stained Diviner »

Thank you for the suggestions in this thread.

Joe Feldman and Tyler Vaughan are going to update tournament results. (Joe has already started, though he plans to stretch the work out over several weeks.)
Alex Dzurick is going to list team national appearances from various states.
Mitch Baron and Jon Suh are going to update collegiate team pages, and Mitch is going to try to add tables showing nationals performances.
Avinash Iyer is going to add tables showing nationals performances to high school team pages.
Alejandro Lopez-Lago is working on dead links.

This will leave a lot of work undone, and we'll probably only do a fraction of what is listed above. If you want something else done, you might have to do it yourself. Also, consider yourself encouraged to help the people doing the above jobs, because we could use the help.

Nobody is planning to do anything significant with the pages on individuals, and I agree that the purpose of those pages is still in question. If it was up to me, I would add a line to people's infoboxes that links to Harry White's stats, and then use the article to describe the course of their career, major matches/tournament/accomplishments, contributions to the game, anecdotes, and personal descriptions. It should generally be positive (think of things you would want somebody's family or potential employer to see), though it can describe cheating and other things that are clearly bad that a person did.
Last edited by Stained Diviner on Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Stained Diviner »

Now it's my turn to make a request. Can somebody create an article on Discord? Give a basic description of what the quizbowl community uses it for and provide some links.

I made major changes to the quizbowl software article. If you can do better than me, please improve it further. I'm sure that many of you can do better than me.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Marcion of Sinope »

I've been unable to edit any of the pages from 1/24/2010 that were lost; when I click "Save Changes," I am sent to the "edit conflict" page that results when two or more people attempt to edit a page at the same time. Does anyone more familiar with the software know any potential solutions or workarounds?

(The page for Brandeis was where I first encountered the issue. For the time being, I put the text I wrote on the Discussion page so I can move on to other articles.)
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by jonah »

Marcion of Sinope wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:35 pm I've been unable to edit any of the pages from 1/24/2010 that were lost; when I click "Save Changes," I am sent to the "edit conflict" page that results when two or more people attempt to edit a page at the same time. Does anyone more familiar with the software know any potential solutions or workarounds?

(The page for Brandeis was where I first encountered the issue. For the time being, I put the text I wrote on the Discussion page so I can move on to other articles.)
I took care of this. If anyone encounters a similar problem on other pages, can you email me at [email protected]? I'm not able to pay continuous attention to the QBWiki now, but I can take care of specific things when notified.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by meebles127 »

Stained Diviner wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:29 am Now it's my turn to make a request. Can somebody create an article on Discord? Give a basic description of what the quizbowl community uses it for and provide some links.
I'll work on tackling this.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Santa Claus »

Stained Diviner wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:49 pm Joe Feldman and Tyler Vaughan are going to update tournament results. (Joe has already started, though he plans to stretch the work out over several weeks.)
I’m not sure if this is being approached from the direction of compiling all the results from mirrors of a set or placing tournament results for schools on their articles, but I think it’s worth pointing out how few sets from the past couple years have articles (and even fewer side events).
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by alexdz »

Stained Diviner wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:49 pm Alex Dzurick is going to list team national appearances from various states.
I wasn't able to work as long as I thought I could on this project today, but I did create some basic tables for a few states. Prior to my work on this project, Missouri and Illinois had pages created for this. My new additions are not color-coded or formatted properly yet (notably there's some weird abbreviations to be explained and a need for things like line breaks), but the basic information is there for the following states now:

Pennsylvania
New Jersey
Delaware
Arkansas
Kansas
Nebraska
Iowa

You can find any of these by going to the page "List of high school nationals appearances by {state name} teams" on QBWiki.

I'm intrigued to keep going on this project, and will probably continue with the other three states surrounding Missouri that don't have pages yet (OK, KY, TN) and also expand further from states bordering/near PA (NY, MD, VA, DC, WV). Some of the states with longer lists I'll save for a time when I can devote most of a day to the compilation of the data.

Special thanks to Harry White, who sent me a CSV file of attendance data for NSCs from 1998-2016, which proved extremely helpful in making this go much faster.
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Re: QBWiki Addition Suggestions

Post by Vembanad »

As someone who enjoys reading about Quiz Bowl, I find the existence of this project very heartening. One thing that I don't see discussed anywhere is comprehensive notability guidelines (something along the lines of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability). There is a small enough number of college teams that all of them could conceivably have QBWiki pages, but thousands of high school teams play Quiz Bowl tournaments, and if we want the Wiki to remain in a state of upkeep, then it doesn't seem practical to have pages for every school that has ventured out to a tournament. Schools with high national finishes and consistently strong regional powerhouses definitely deserve pages, but where should we draw the line? (Of course, there are many unsuccessful schools that already have pages, but if we want the QBWiki to have a veneer of legitimacy, we should try to make it internally consistent.) This is perhaps a bigger problem for individual people -- how do we determine who is important enough for an article? It is even more impractical to give every Quiz Bowl player an article, so I think it's important that we determine who should be included, as there are certainly many top players, particularly at the high school level, without pages. (For example, only 6/10 of last year's All-World Players according to Fred Morlan, and 6/10 of the top players according to the Groger Ranks player poll, have pages.) Specific notability guidelines seem like the best way to go about this.

Additionally, I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts on how in-depth pages should go. There are several teams with very detailed accounts of year-to-year exploits (several Illinois teams come to mind -- Stevenson, Uni Lab, and Loyola Academy). I personally enjoy reading these, but should they be included? Would it be feasible to have them for all teams?
Cerulean Ozarow
Hunter '21
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