ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

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ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by DanacondaGolisch » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:30 pm

The University of Central Florida quiz bowl club is proud to announce that we will be hosting Florida's site for ACF Regionals.

DATE/TIME/PLACE: January 26; starting at 9:00 a.m.; in the Business Administration 1 building. I recommend you park in either Garage C or the parking lot labeled C3 on the map at https://parking.ucf.edu/maps/

REGISTRATION: All teams must fill out this form to register with ACF: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... A/viewform

Please also send an email to quizbowlucf@gmail.com with your number of teams, buzzers, and staffers.

REGIONALS PARENT POST: http://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21588 Has information about submissions, difficulty, and distribution.

FEES:
Base fee: $135 ($60 for shorthanded teams of 1 or 2 players)
Buzzer: -$5/functional system
Staffers: -$10/staffer
New to quizbowl discount: -$100

"New to quizbowl" discount is intended for schools that did not send a team to any regular collegiate academic tournament (exclusively Novice tournaments do not count) since September 2017, and have no one on the team(s) claiming this discount who played those tournaments for another school.

FIELD:
Florida A, B, C, D
New College
UCF A and B

This site will be running Ophir's advanced statistics.

EDITED because I initially put the wrong date and fixed it.
updated with location and field
updated with results

RESULTS
Stats at link: http://hsquizbowl.org/db/tournaments/55 ... /combined/
Order of finish:
1 UF A
2 NCF (UG)
3 UF B (UG)
4 UF C (D2)
5 UCF A (UG)
6 UF D (D2)
7 UCF B (D2)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by dtaylor4 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:10 pm

Looking at the stats posted to the TDB, I cannot make heads or tails of the playoff format, and it looks like some teams played 4 playoff games and others only 2. Can anyone enlighten me?

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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by CPiGuy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:15 pm

It appears that three UG teams were tied in the top bracket with a 1-2 playoff record. People who played this tournament report that the TD decided to not carry over prelim results. However, only two of those UG teams appear to have played off for the UG final (which carries with it an autobid to nationals!).

Two questions:

-- Why were prelim records not carried over when they were identical for all teams?
-- Why was UF C denied the opportunity to play for the UG title on the buzzer?

Edit to add: The first issue does not actually compromise the integrity of the tournament, provided that it was clearly communicated to everyone in attendance what games would and would not count for final standings. The second issue absolutely does.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by bradleykirksey » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:36 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:10 pm
Looking at the stats posted to the TDB, I cannot make heads or tails of the playoff format, and it looks like some teams played 4 playoff games and others only 2. Can anyone enlighten me?
Top bracket teams played 3 games against each other. Bottom bracket teams played 3 against each other. Then there was tiebreaker for the UG championship. It appears that a few teams, I think (though I wasn't in charge and I don't know) only played 2 games because they played a match against the sandbag team. They heard all of the tossups, but played some against an ineligible team. It looks weird on the score sheet that they only had 2, but they were already eliminated and had a chance to hear 200 tossups.


As for Thompson's Argument,


Since it was a 7 team field, a few ineligible players essentially sat in a room and buzzed all day, to give people something to do, and I suppose that Daniel opted not to report it. All top bracket teams got 3+ qualifying playoff games.

As I understand it, because the Sandbags beat UF B and NCF, lost to UF C, it looks weird. But the 3 UG teams didn't have the same record. UF C's one extra win wasn't real because it was against a non-real team. But after the full round robin, the standings were

UF A - 6 wins
UF B - 4 wins
NCF - 4 wins
UF C - 3 wins.
Sandbag team doesn't matter
Everyone else fewer than 2 wins.

After all 3 undergrad teams went 1-2 in post-lims, UF B and NCF had 5 wins to UF C's 4 wins. Leaving those two to play for a championship while UF C sat around sad. If you remove the sandbag win (which you need to do because of the constantly changing line-up and because they weren't even really playing) then UF C lost the chance to play for Nats on the buzzer by simply losing more.



I'm sorry if this isn't right or doesn't make sense. I wasn't in charge and I'm easily confused. But I hope this helps.


EDIT:

I'm sorry, I miscounted.

UF B was 5-1 going into the playoffs,
NCF had 4 wins
UF C had 3 wins.

I don't know how the championship was decided, but I don't think UF C should have been in it.
Last edited by bradleykirksey on Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by CPiGuy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:42 pm

UF B appears to have had six wins over non-sandbag teams before the finals. Your explanation also contradicts what people attending the site have said, which is that prelim games were not taken into account. Either way, what should have happened is that there should have been a three-team single-elimination playoff, or UF B should have had the advantage in an advantaged final against NCF. (And this should have been announced before the tournament.)
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by bradleykirksey » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:49 pm

CPiGuy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:42 pm
UF B appears to have had six wins over non-sandbag teams before the finals.
OK, they had 6 wins
NCF had 5
UCF C had 4

right?

Edit: OK, yes, thanks for the edit, I think I get what you're asking better.

It wasn't my decision, I have no idea what was actually happening, but it looks like the TD

1) Didn't have record carryover
and then
2) used pre-lim record as a tiebreaker for the 3 day tie

Or at least, that's my guess.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:34 am

bradleykirksey wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:49 pm

It wasn't my decision, I have no idea what was actually happening, but it looks like the TD

1) Didn't have record carryover
and then
2) used pre-lim record as a tiebreaker for the 3 day tie

Or at least, that's my guess.
If prelim records carried, then UG should have had an advantages final between NCF and UF B. If they didn’t carry, UF C was denied a rightful shot at the UG title.

In short, whoever made this decision shouldn’t be running a meaningful tournament for a while, if ever.
Last edited by dtaylor4 on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by CPiGuy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:16 am

It's also probably a good idea for ACF to officially codify policies on when to carry over and not carry over prelim games (such as "when they're shared by all the teams in the same playoff bracket"), as well as policies for breaking ties at the end of tournaments (what happens when a 3-way tie occurs? must TDs play out an advantaged final or can they hold a one-game final, or even just give the win to a team that clears by 1?). NAQT has these policies spelled out for SCT hosts, and it would make sense for ACF to do the same so that TDs have clear guidance in situations like this.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by LeoLaw » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:36 am

First of all, an important fact here is that the teams involved are New College and UF B, not UCF.

Also, the TD might have made a mistake, but I think it is unfair to say that he “shouldn’t be running a meaningful tournament for awhile.” If ACF had a clear guideline for situations like this one, at least one of us from UF or NCF at the tournament could’ve pointed this out to him. I personally would not have complained for more rounds of quizbowl at the same price.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:56 am

LeoLaw wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:36 am
First of all, an important fact here is that the teams involved are New College and UF B, not UCF.

Also, the TD might have made a mistake, but I think it is unfair to say that he “shouldn’t be running a meaningful tournament for awhile.” If ACF had a clear guideline for situations like this one, at least one of us from UF or NCF at the tournament could’ve pointed this out to him. I personally would not have complained for more rounds of quizbowl at the same price.
Whatever the playoff format would be with regards to carryover games, it should have been made clear before the tournament started. This tournament is a direct qualifier for nationals, so it should be held to a higher standard. If a TD isn't sure what to do, the TD should ask instead of making up some hokey "1v2 playoff" which makes zero god damn sense.

I typo'd UCF, it is fixed in my post above.

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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by sonstige » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:24 pm

Just for my own curiosity (and apologies if this is posted elsewhere on here, the ACF website, etc.) --- but is there a policy on spoiler (or otherwise ineligible) teams joining a field, when such a tournament is a national qualifier?

I would imagine the TD in this case got the OK from ACF to allow this, although I can't recall a time when I played a national qualifier and a spoiler team was in the field. Maybe there are plenty of examples out there which have established this to be an accepted practice, but I can't offhand think of one --- hence my curiosity.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by Aaron's Rod » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:37 pm

sonstige wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Just for my own curiosity (and apologies if this is posted elsewhere on here, the ACF website, etc.) --- but is there a policy on spoiler (or otherwise ineligible) teams joining a field, when such a tournament is a national qualifier?
The ACF Hosting Guidelines detail the penalties incurred for ineligible teams playing without prior permission, hosts devising schedules with fewer than 10 games, and not awarding UG or DII titles.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:00 pm

sonstige wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Just for my own curiosity (and apologies if this is posted elsewhere on here, the ACF website, etc.) --- but is there a policy on spoiler (or otherwise ineligible) teams joining a field, when such a tournament is a national qualifier?

I would imagine the TD in this case got the OK from ACF to allow this, although I can't recall a time when I played a national qualifier and a spoiler team was in the field. Maybe there are plenty of examples out there which have established this to be an accepted practice, but I can't offhand think of one --- hence my curiosity.
Looking at the stats, the games against the spoiler team had stats recorded, but since the spoiler was marked as an exhibition team, other teams' stats against it aren't included in overall standings.

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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by Cody » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:41 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:34 am
In short, whoever made this decision shouldn’t be running a meaningful tournament for a while, if ever.
This is a severe over-reaction, and wrong. In fact, I'm pretty steamed you said this!

Mistakes were made, yes, but they are pretty transparently rookie mistakes. They are mistakes that are easy to learn from and correct for future endeavors, and there is no reason to suspect that the TD will not do so (this is not MUT at NGCSU). Learning from mistakes is how you become better as a TD.

TD, whom I do not know - I hope you TD again, and if you need any help with (formats, or otherwise), drop me a line at voightac@gmail.com.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by CPiGuy » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:38 am

It would appear that ACF has extended an autobid to both NCF and UF B, per the A-value spreadsheet.

I like this decision, but in my opinion this bid should come at the expense of UCF's hosting autobid, rather than at the expense of whichever unfortunate team winds up on the bubble and would have otherwise qualified had an extra UG autobid not been necessary. This is not at all to pass judgement on whether UCF/the TD should be allowed to host again (Cody's post was good and I agree with it), but I think in this case it's unfair to pass the punishment of not qualifying for Nats on to another random team.

Edit to add: there is absolutely some element of self-interest in this post, since my team has a nonzero chance of being right on the bubble, but I would still hold this opinion regardless.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by DanacondaGolisch » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:11 pm

Hello, people. I must apologize for the late reply. My housing switched internet providers and I couldn't connect my laptop for a while, then I had a glut of schoolwork.

I'll start by explaining my mistake. At the end of round 9, it seemed to me that UF B and NCF were sure to have a tied prelim record, which of course means there must be a way to break the tie, preferably with a tiebreaker. I did not understand the correct way that advantage finals worked and was instead looking at the fact that the teams were tied in head-to-head. Also in the back of my head was the rule that Regionals tournaments must last at least as long as 10 rounds and we were right at 10. So this concept was in my head when UF C scored an upset over NCF in round 10 and cleared everything up. I should have used prelims right there. I should have asked literally anyone at the site with more experience than me what to do. I should have emailed ACF for what to do. Instead, I was still stuck on the idea that UF B and NCF were tied in head-to-head and now playoff record. I confused myself about how much these mattered compared to combined record. Knowing that a national qualifier is a big deal, and not wanting to make the wrong decision, I thought it best to let the teams decide it at the buzzer in a tiebreaker. One UF player even asked me, "Is this an advantage final?" and, misunderstanding how those worked, I said no. As soon as my mistakes were made known to me a few days later, it was like a punch in the gut. I felt awful, and I'm not just saying that.
dtaylor4 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:34 am
In short, whoever made this decision shouldn’t be running a meaningful tournament for a while, if ever.
Rude. It was a mistake of ignorance and uncertainty and not one I'll make again. Regardless, I graduate soon and probably won't be running a tournament again for a long while, if ever.
Thank you, Leo and Cody, for defending me on this <3
sonstige wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Just for my own curiosity (and apologies if this is posted elsewhere on here, the ACF website, etc.) --- but is there a policy on spoiler (or otherwise ineligible) teams joining a field, when such a tournament is a national qualifier?

I would imagine the TD in this case got the OK from ACF to allow this, although I can't recall a time when I played a national qualifier and a spoiler team was in the field. Maybe there are plenty of examples out there which have established this to be an accepted practice, but I can't offhand think of one --- hence my curiosity.
There sure is! I did not read it carefully enough and forgot/never knew to get approval on it, for which I have paid a hefty (and well-deserved) penalty. Out of pocket, not out of tournament profits. Simply put, I thought spoilers were always allowed as an alternative to bye rounds, and now I know I'm wrong.
I should probably say, too, that it wasn't just a whim. All of my quiz bowl experience pointed to using a spoiler team to round out the 7-team schedule for an efficient 10-round day. Plus I had a lot of staffers, some of whom popped up last minute. Had I known (my own fault for not reading policies thoroughly) that rounds against spoilers don't count for the limit, or that they were frowned upon, I would have had bye rounds and doubled the playoffs for a 13-round day.
CPiGuy wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:38 am
It would appear that ACF has extended an autobid to both NCF and UF B, per the A-value spreadsheet.

I like this decision, but in my opinion this bid should come at the expense of UCF's hosting autobid, rather than at the expense of whichever unfortunate team winds up on the bubble and would have otherwise qualified had an extra UG autobid not been necessary. This is not at all to pass judgement on whether UCF/the TD should be allowed to host again (Cody's post was good and I agree with it), but I think in this case it's unfair to pass the punishment of not qualifying for Nats on to another random team.

Edit to add: there is absolutely some element of self-interest in this post, since my team has a nonzero chance of being right on the bubble, but I would still hold this opinion regardless.
I have already been penalized by ACF for my crimes at this tournament. I have paid these penalties. Stop trying to come up with new ones when you have suffered no personal wrong from this. Inappropriate, even if you clothe it in sympathy for the "unfortunate team" on the bubble. I don't think I am out of line to firmly tell you your work here is done. If ACF wanted to do this, they would and will.
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Re: ACF Regionals @ UCF (1/26/19)

Post by CPiGuy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:39 pm

DanacondaGolisch wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:11 pm
CPiGuy wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:38 am
It would appear that ACF has extended an autobid to both NCF and UF B, per the A-value spreadsheet.

I like this decision, but in my opinion this bid should come at the expense of UCF's hosting autobid, rather than at the expense of whichever unfortunate team winds up on the bubble and would have otherwise qualified had an extra UG autobid not been necessary. This is not at all to pass judgement on whether UCF/the TD should be allowed to host again (Cody's post was good and I agree with it), but I think in this case it's unfair to pass the punishment of not qualifying for Nats on to another random team.

Edit to add: there is absolutely some element of self-interest in this post, since my team has a nonzero chance of being right on the bubble, but I would still hold this opinion regardless.
I have already been penalized by ACF for my crimes at this tournament. I have paid these penalties. Stop trying to come up with new ones when you have suffered no personal wrong from this. Inappropriate, even if you clothe it in sympathy for the "unfortunate team" on the bubble. I don't think I am out of line to firmly tell you your work here is done. If ACF wanted to do this, they would and will.
I mean, one of my points was that there was a distinct possibility I could suffer a personal wrong for it, and I don't think sympathy for the unfortunate team on the bubble is at all unwarranted -- getting bubbled sucks (trust me, my team got bubbled by 3 spots last year), and it sucks a lot more if you know you wouldn't actually have been bubbled but for a mistake made by a TD at a different site. I take issue with the idea that I'm just engaging in inappropriate virtue-signaling -- this was a real concern! It was also not a wild, out-of-the-blue suggestion -- NAQT can and has done this in the very recent past (for a case that didn't even result in an extra bid having to be handed out!), and in all honesty it seems more relevant than arbitrary monetary penalties. That said, ACF didn't prescribe for potential revocation of bids so it didn't happen -- and that's totally reasonable; it would probably have been equally unfair for you to be denied a spot at Nationals despite not knowing that was a potential consequence for awarding titles incorrectly!

Edit: NCF and UF B are both ranked above the highest team out of the tournament right now, so that's another reason ACF made the right choice here -- even if they had not given both teams an autobid one of them would have taken the A-value bid anyway.
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