SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

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SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

Hello quizbowl,

I apologize for getting this up late. My finals were this past week and I don't need to explain that this was the most complicated final exam week of my life.

Logistics:
I will be running an OPEN mirror of SUN on Discord on Sunday, April 19. Note this was originally ACF Nationals weekend. The plan is to start at 7 am PST or 10 am EST and finish before 6 pm EST. I am initially instituting a 10 team field cap until I can secure staff. Personally, I'd be more in favor of five person teams than moving to strange formats with lots of rounds because staffer time is valuable and Discord events can often seem like a slog by round 6 or so. I hope this desire is understandable.

I also think 9 rounds + advantaged finals is a good amount for a tossup + bonus Discord event. Form your team here. Note that only an email to me harrisbunker AT gmail DOT com constitutes a valid registration. Putting your name on the sheet does not indicate anything other than interest in playing. I understand many teams formed before this announcement went up, and of course they get priority registration, but I like things to be as accountable and organized as possible especially when dealing with Discord permissions, etc. A waitlist will be maintained as necessary.

The cost of this event will be $65 dollars per team. The only acceptable forms of payment are Venmo or Paypal made out to me. Dealing with the mail and checks and school budget offices will be exceedingly annoying right now and I want this to be as simple as possible. In your registration email, indicate exactly how you plan to pay me. It's much easier if all of a team pays from one account than in four payments of $16.25 .

Audience and Eligibility:
This tournament is for all players. The set was written for a collegiate novice audience so expect it to be far easier than other collegiate quizbowl sets of this calendar year. Our difficulty is like previous iterations of ACF Fall or FST. As such, if you are a collegiate novice, I recommend you either wait until the Fall to play this set in person or seek out one of the closed college SUN mirrors which should hopefully go up soon. Experienced players should tell their novice teammates and incoming players to try to play an in-person mirror. This set was supposed to be played in-person and foster good quizbowl experiences.

At this time, unless there is pushback from the field, I am allowing super teams made of multiple elite collegiate players because the set will be easy for the presumed field. I would recommend exercising some prudence, but I don't have the desire nor the team to legislate this for this ultimately pretty casual mirror.

High school students are encouraged to play the closed SUN, tossup only, tournament here.

Staffing:
I will be compensating staff for this. I am paying $25 dollars for experienced staff. They will need to be able to read a round within 30 minutes and also keep score in a spreadsheet or Neg5 (this is TBD.) If you wish to staff, email me ASAP and having a Venmo is a big plus.

After the tournament, feedback on the set is appreciated but I ask players not to spend time on this during the tournament so we can move at a brisk pace. For any questions, please email me, post below or DM me on Discord.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

The field as of now is:
1. what is this cursed team (Conor Thompson et al.)
2. Daniel Hothem et al.
3. Aayush + Will Alston
4. Rumbo Steefahming (Rohin et al.)
5. Alex Li et al.
6. Swapnil + David
7. disgusting and barbarous (Connor Mayers et al.)
8. Avinash Iyer et al.
9. Vincent Du et al.
10. Father McLain and His Children (Brad et al.)

Others should try to register ASAP. I see a lot of teams on the sheet that have not signed up. By the way, if team names are not made by the night before the tournament, I will probably assign them or just use Last Name et al. Please let me know if you I missed your registration.

WAITLIST:
11. Michael Yue et al.
12. Cringe Cowboy Compadres (Deepak Muthyala et al.)
13. Nick Dai et al.
14. James Hadley et al.
15. Mazin Omer et al.
16. Collin Ace et al.


EDIT: Started waitlist (3/31/20)
Last edited by Ciorwrong on Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

I now have registrations from nine teams. We are one team away from a field cap and I will reassess the staffing and field situation after this. Please check to see if you have registered and are noted because I might have missed your email.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Amethyst »

I'd be interested in forming a team if anyone is interested! I'm reasonably decent at Bio and Chem and can maybe contribute elsewhere.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

A waitlist has been added. I may try to get additional staffers depending on interest or if there is a good format for 12 team mirrors. If teams are okay with something like two pools of 6 for prelims (5 games) and then 3 crossover playoff games and a final (8/9 games), I could expand. My worry as always is making a Discord tournament too long and unbearable. Even at this difficulty, the rounds may take longer than people are used to. Any thoughts on a potential format are welcome.

Edit: There are a lot of the teams "registered" on the unofficial scoresheet. Note that as I said in the OP, this does not constitute a valid registration. Given my full time PhD student course load + other responsibilities, I really do not wish to run a two day tournament for this. It might be prudent for high schoolers to instead pursue the closed Discord mirror. We might be able to have a 14 team mirror work but I don't want to do a 14 team RR for example.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Will bonuses at this event be able to distinguish teams particularly well? I'm wondering if this would be more appropriate as a tossup-only mirror. For most teams involved, I take it that this is mainly going to be buzzer practice for fun, and most bonuses will get quickly 20d or 30d.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Red Panda Cub »

naan/steak-holding toll wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:03 pm Will bonuses at this event be able to distinguish teams particularly well? I'm wondering if this would be more appropriate as a tossup-only mirror. For most teams involved, I take it that this is mainly going to be buzzer practice for fun, and most bonuses will get quickly 20d or 30d.
I would be in favour of TU only, for what it's worth.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Smuttynose Island »

I'm much less interested in playing a TU only event and signed up under the assumption that we'd play bonuses. I've found that bonuses are a nice way to stay engaged during an online event.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Deepika Goes From Ranbir To Ranveer »

I'd favour doing bonuses purely from a "more QB is more fun" perspective.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

Personally, as Daniel mentioned, I'd prefer this be run with bonuses even if the average ppb is 25 or whatever it's going to be. Here is a straw poll people can use to express their opinions in a more concise way. My primarily goal here is to have a fun tournament that won't last forever.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Mike Bentley »

Deepika Goes From Ranbir To Ranveer wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:28 pm I'd favour doing bonuses purely from a "more QB is more fun" perspective.
If there's a format where we can fit more games in by not doing bonuses I could be persuaded to do that, but I'm fine with the current plan too.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

Mike Bentley wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:51 pm
Deepika Goes From Ranbir To Ranveer wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:28 pm I'd favour doing bonuses purely from a "more QB is more fun" perspective.
If there's a format where we can fit more games in by not doing bonuses I could be persuaded to do that, but I'm fine with the current plan too.
We have 13 full packets because this is a novice set. Given this constraint, things like a 14 team RR on tossups only become exceedingly difficult unless people don't actually want to play a final which seems bad to me.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by CPiGuy »

The best format for a 14 team mirror, to me, seems like paired brackets (each team plays all 7 teams in the other bracket), and then split 4/3 with the bottom bracket getting a bye as one of their three playoff rounds.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

CPiGuy wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:58 pm The best format for a 14 team mirror, to me, seems like paired brackets (each team plays all 7 teams in the other bracket), and then split 4/3 with the bottom bracket getting a bye as one of their three playoff rounds.
I'm personally fine with this format and will attempt to get enough staff for a 14 team mirror.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

In light of recent events, I am reconsidering bonuses for the open online mirror of this set.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by CPiGuy »

Ciorwrong wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:48 am In light of recent events, I am reconsidering bonuses for the open online mirror of this set.
I endorse this even without recent events; I think I've expanded on my reasons for that elsewhere but bonuses are the primary contributing factor to online tournaments feeling like an unfun slog.
CPiGuy wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:58 pm The best format for a 14 team mirror, to me, seems like paired brackets (each team plays all 7 teams in the other bracket), and then split 4/3 with the bottom bracket getting a bye as one of their three playoff rounds.
If you're going to not use bonuses, you can easily accommodate 16 teams with an 11-round format. (I mention this because I see the waitlist is currently at 16 teams.)
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

I'm looking for at least two more experienced mods so I can make the field 14 teams and use Conor's idea. Please DM me for further information. If I can't get the moderation staff together by 9 pm Pacific tomorrow, I will decide to run a 10 team round robin but will still be tossups only. I apologize for any confusion or frustration and ask for understanding during this hectic period. Staff is apparently in short supply due to other tournaments.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by 5 Fingaz to the Male Gaze »

Has there been a decision made as to whether this tournament will be tossup-only or not? Also, has there been any consideration given to adjusting the tournament price if we just play tossups, in light of the fact that people presumably signed up under the impression that it would be run with bonuses and thus we would be playing far less questions than we originally were paying for?
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

5 Fingaz to the Male Gaze wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:42 am Has there been a decision made as to whether this tournament will be tossup-only or not? Also, has there been any consideration given to adjusting the tournament price if we just play tossups, in light of the fact that people presumably signed up under the impression that it would be run with bonuses and thus we would be playing far less questions than we originally were paying for?
I have enough staff to run a 14 team tournament. I am willing to reduce the mirror fee to $50/team now but you are getting more games. Part of the reason I am doing this online mirror is to recoup the lost income for myself and my writers when we spent hundreds of hours working on this set only to have almost all the in-person mirrors cancelled due to COVID-19. I understand this is not ideal, and frankly, my entire perspective on Discord events has shifted in the past week. I am at least a man of my word and still intend to run this event as 14 team RR tossups only. If this is disagreeable to anyone, I'd ask they post or contact me.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by CPiGuy »

Seeing as the average team plays about half the bonuses in the tournament, 13 rounds of tossups is about the same amount of quizbowl as 9 rounds of tossups and bonuses. More if you're bad. I don't have a problem with paying the same amount.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by 5 Fingaz to the Male Gaze »

CPiGuy wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:08 pm Seeing as the average team plays about half the bonuses in the tournament, 13 rounds of tossups is about the same amount of quizbowl as 9 rounds of tossups and bonuses. More if you're bad. I don't have a problem with paying the same amount.
This is assuming that tossups and bonuses are equivalent within the scheme of the quizbowl playing experience, an assessment with which I fundamentally disagree. I am not particularly interested in litigating my personal preference between tossups-only and tossup-bonus, since I doubt that anyone will change anyone's mind about this, but I will say that I would greatly appreciate a lowered playing fee.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Mike Bentley »

5 Fingaz to the Male Gaze wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:29 pm
CPiGuy wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:08 pm Seeing as the average team plays about half the bonuses in the tournament, 13 rounds of tossups is about the same amount of quizbowl as 9 rounds of tossups and bonuses. More if you're bad. I don't have a problem with paying the same amount.
This is assuming that tossups and bonuses are equivalent within the scheme of the quizbowl playing experience, an assessment with which I fundamentally disagree. I am not particularly interested in litigating my personal preference between tossups-only and tossup-bonus, since I doubt that anyone will change anyone's mind about this, but I will say that I would greatly appreciate a lowered playing fee.
It's worth putting into perspective here that quizbowl is a crazily undervalued activity compared to the amount of work that goes into writing questions and staffing tournaments. The existing mirror fee of $65 per teams means this is bringing in $130 per moderator. Given that hosting a Discord tournament easily takes 10 hours, even just paying the moderators a below minimum wage (in Washington at least) rate of $13 an hour eats up all the costs of hosting this tournament and you haven't even paid writers/editors for their greater time investment yet.

Of course, many people are facing tougher economic times than they were a month ago and I can see how every dollar counts. But if the like $4 difference reducing the already low $16.25 entry fee for hours of entertainment is going to be the difference between you playing and not playing, I might suggest other ways that you could save that money / earn $4 in income instead.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Yeah, frankly I don't really want to play this tournament unless the mods are paid at least $40 for their work for the day - that's what I've paid for the last several tournaments I've organized. It's well below minimum wage, but it's still something, and has been very successful at recruiting mods in the past (many folks have told me they wouldn't staff tournaments without this payment). I get that this monetary difference is substantial for some younger members of the audience, as opposed to non-students with savings and/or full time jobs, and I think it may be worth figuring out tiered pricing in the future, as this has been done successfully in the past with open teams vs school teams.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

naan/steak-holding toll wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:12 pm Yeah, frankly I don't really want to play this tournament unless the mods are paid at least $40 for their work for the day - that's what I've paid for the last several tournaments I've organized. It's well below minimum wage, but it's still something, and has been very successful at recruiting mods in the past (many folks have told me they wouldn't staff tournaments without this payment). I get that this monetary difference is substantial for some younger members of the audience, as opposed to non-students with savings and/or full time jobs, and I think it may be worth figuring out tiered pricing in the future, as this has been done successfully in the past with open teams vs school teams.
As I outlined on the Discord, this tournament is basically a write-off to me and I'm running it because I said I would--not because I particularly want to or expect to make a killing.

I 1000 percent agree with Mike Bentley but unfortunately this is probably not the best place to debate pricing structures. I am willing to pay moderators $40 out of my share of this set because I've basically written this entire set off as a loss for me. I apologize for how disastrous this has been and I hope people enjoy themselves this weekend. Hopefully, this set can get mirrored in the Fall in person for those interested and I severely apologize for how big of a cluster :capybara: this has been.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Mike Bentley »

So is there a final settled format for this tournament?
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

We are doing 14 teams RR tossups only. Basically, everyone on the team list is in the field unless you have told me you are going to drop. I will try to send something out later this afternoon.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Mike Bentley »

I think our team may have an open spot. Email me ([email protected]) if you're interested.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Mike Bentley »

Mike Bentley wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:24 pm I think our team may have an open spot. Email me ([email protected]) if you're interested.
Ok this spot has been filled (Nitin Rao is replacing Daniel Hothem).
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Mike Bentley »

Quick PSA for anyone like me who didn't pay close attention to the tournament's date: The tournament is on Sunday, not tomorrow.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Mike Bentley wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:40 pm Quick PSA for anyone like me who didn't pay close attention to the tournament's date: The tournament is on Sunday, not tomorrow.
I also made this mistake and am now scrambling to change my weekend plans.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

I have sent out a preliminary logistics email to the 14 teams I had from the waitlist and the formal team list after accounting for drops, etc. Please let me know if you anticipated the email but did not receive it. I will send out more information after teams confirm their attendance via email tomorrow.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this in the email and thankfully Conor Thompson did so in his confirmation: attaching a roster confirmation is good because I'd bet a lot of the rosters are fluid right now.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Mike Bentley »

naan/steak-holding toll wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:13 pm
Mike Bentley wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:40 pm Quick PSA for anyone like me who didn't pay close attention to the tournament's date: The tournament is on Sunday, not tomorrow.
I also made this mistake and am now scrambling to change my weekend plans.
So I was apparently not the only person on my team to make this mistake. We have another opening if anyone wants to join.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Mike Bentley »

Mike Bentley wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:06 pm
naan/steak-holding toll wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:13 pm
Mike Bentley wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:40 pm Quick PSA for anyone like me who didn't pay close attention to the tournament's date: The tournament is on Sunday, not tomorrow.
I also made this mistake and am now scrambling to change my weekend plans.
So I was apparently not the only person on my team to make this mistake. We have another opening if anyone wants to join.
This has been filled again. Also, if someone can forward the logistics mail to me ([email protected]) that would be much appreciated!
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by CPiGuy »

We have an opening if anyone wants to join me, Josh Rubel, and Amith Punyala.

Knowing the humanities is preferred but we're just here to have fun.

Edit: Openings filled.
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

I sent out a brief final logistics email for this with the link to the Discord server. Please let me know if you anticipated this and did not receive it. Stats will be uploaded on Neg5 throughout the day. A schedule can be found here. I look forward to seeing teams compete bright and early tomorrow morning!
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Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

Post by Ciorwrong »

This tournament happened. I think much fun was had by all. Teams should feel free to join the discussion forum for SUN 2020 to get a .zip file with the packets. I gotta make the initial posts in the subforum but this should happen later today.

Avinash has graciously decided to convert the stats to SQBS but before this happens, please let me know all the stat corrections that have to happen. I really want to thank the staff and especially Caroline Mao, Luc, Arnav, JackE and Kyle for stepping up the plate. This was probably the best-run Discord tournament I've ever participated in on the staffing side.
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UC San Diego Economics 2019 -

at least semi-retired
whatamidoinghere
Wakka
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:07 pm

Re: SUN Open on Discord (April 19, 2020)

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Avinash Iyer
Mission San Jose '21
SATURNALIA, CALISTO
"You're only as good as your last haircut"
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