PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

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PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:13 am

No real reason that I'm posting this other than that it came up in a lecture today and reminded me of a minor gripe I have, which is that Reza Shah/Reza Pahlavi is not an acceptable name for Mohammed Reza Shah. The only acceptable person to call "Reza Shah" is his father. I just dug up a bunch of questions from the last five years that get this wrong because I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy, and here they are, coming from sources as diverse as NHBB/HSAPQ, Minnesota housewrites, IMSAnity, HERMES, and others (I can't do the same search for NAQT, but I think it's a safe assumption that this is also an error there):
13.The assassination of this country’s presiding warlord in 1747 led to a 50-year period of anarchy. In 1963, this country’s leader initiated a reform program called the White Revolution. The Constitutional Revolution led to the creation of this country’s parliament, the Majlis, and ultimately led to the downfall of its Qajar dynasty. Later, the CIA sponsored Operation Ajax in this country to overthrow Mohammad Mosaddeq after its oil industry was nationalised. For 10 points, name this country once ruled by Reza Shah Pahlavi.
ANSWER: Iran
(Technically not wrong but it's obvious they're talking about the son).
10. Answer some questions about colorful revolutions, for 10 points each:
[10] This was the color of the turbans of members of a revolution that overthrew the Yuan Dynasty, and should not be confused with the Yellow Turban Revolution during the Han Dynasty.
ANSWER: red (accept Red Turban Rebellion)
[10] Shah Reza Pahlavi led the White Revolution in this country to try to placate dissidents. Involving land and voting reforms, it obviously failed because the Shah was ousted 15 years later here.
ANSWER: Islamic Republic of Iran
[10] This revolution occurred in the mid 20th century, and contributed to the rapid growth rates in countries like India. It came about mainly because of pesticides and fertilizers, and its namesake color is often associated with environmentalism as well.
ANSWER: Green Revolution
16.In 1979 52 Americans were held hostage in this country's US embassy. For 10 points each:
[10] The Islamic Revolution and the rise of Ayatollah Khomeini occurred in this country, which also fought a war against Iraq from 1980 to 1988.
ANSWER: Islamic Republic of Iran
[10] The Iranian Revolution overthrew Reza Pahlavi, who went by this title as the hereditary ruler of Iran.
ANSWER: Shah
[10] More recently, this color has been claimed by supporters of Mir Hossein Moussavi’s electoral campaign and opponents of Ahmadinejad in Iran.
ANSWER: green
10. Women were extended the right to vote by Reza Pahlavi [“puh-laavi”] during the White Revolution in this country. Pahlavi was later overthrown by a proponent of Vilayat E-Faqih [“villa-yat eh-fakih”]. Ruhollah Khomeini led this country whose current president has faced scrutiny for resuming its nuclear program and putting three American hikers on trial when they accidentally crossed the Iraqi border. For 10 points, name this Middle Eastern country currently led by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, with capital at Tehran.
ANSWER: Islamic Republic of Iran
T6. In a so-called revolution of this color, Shah Reza Pahlavi advocated for land reform and the
enfranchisement of women. A Finnish sniper with the most confirmed kills ever was named for this
color, as was the shipping company who owned the RMS ​Titanic​. During the Russian Civil War, a
faction of this color fought against the​(*) Red Bolsheviks. Erich von Falkenhayn attacked Verdun in order
to “bleed the French [this color]”, and during the Battle of Bunker Hill, American troops were told not to
shoot until they could see this color in the enemy’s eyes. For 10 points, name this color of the flag of
surrender.
ANSWER: White
22. This leader initiated a Literacy Corps that allowed those drafted into military service to
perform their service tutoring in villages. He ordered the arrest of his intelligence chief
Nematollah Nassiri, and his wife Farah Diba accumulated the most valuable collection of
modern art outside of the United States. This man assumed his highest post after Soviet Union
and Great Britain replaced his father during World War II, and his secret police force was known
as the Savak. This man reversed Mohammad Mosaddeq's nationalization of British petroleum
interests and initiated the westernizing White Revolution. For 10 points, name this leader who
was overthrown in the Islamic Revolution and replaced with the Ayatollah Khoemeni as the
leader of Iran.
ANSWER: Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi [accept either underlined; prompt on “Shah of Iran”]
This NASAT tossup one is extra wrong - if we don't accept "Johnson" by itself for LBJ, then you DEFINITELY can't just take "Pahlavi" by itself here.
Operation Ajax was a CIA-backed plot to overthrow Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in
this country, and previously the Zand and Safavid Dynasties ruled this country. For ten points
each:
[10] Name this country, that fought a war which fought an eight-year war with its neighbor,
Iraq. The United States supported Iraq over hard feelings about this country holding American
hostages for over a year in Tehran.
ANSWER: Islamic Republic of Iran
[10] Mossadegh was replaced in Operation Ajax, which put this man into power after the 28
Mordad coup. This monarch, backed by the United States, established the SAVAK secret police.
ANSWER: Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (prompt on “Shah (of Iran))
[10] Shah Pahlavi enacted this series of reforms in 1963, which included giving women the right
to vote and establishing the Literacy Corps.
ANSWER: White Revolution
Similar to the above, with the added problem of not taking the obvious regnal name by itself.
55. In 1975, this leader founded the Rastakhiz Party, making his country a single-party state. He promoted
land ownership and women's rights in the White Revolution, which particularly offended a longtime
opponent who denounced him through cassette tapes made in Paris. His power was solidified after
Operation Ajax, which deposed Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh (moh-SAH-deck). For the point,
name this Iranian autocrat, who was overthrown in a 1979 revolution.
ANSWER: Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi [prompt on Pahlavi; prompt on The Shah]
Also in error, because if I were to say "Mohammed Reza" by itself that should be just fine, "Shah" is just the common practice of his title being appended to his name.
21. This dynasty's forces suppressed the Foresters Movement and ended the brief Soviet Republic of
Gilan. One member of this dynasty forced Seyyed Tabatabaee to be appointed prime minister and
took the title of Sardar Sepah or "commander in chief." The American Arthur Millspaugh was given
broad financial powers by this dynasty. Under this dynasty, the attack on Siahkal spurred the
expansion of torture in facilities such as Evin Prison by the (*) SAVAK. This dynasty engineered a
lavish 2500th anniversary celebration and launched the White Revolution, but also strengthened its power
by accepting an American coup against Mohammed Mossadiq. For 10 points, name this dynasty under
which two kings named Reza Shah ruled Iran.
ANSWER: Pahlavi Dynasty
This book makes repeated references to an essay about a funeral in Pickens County, Georgia, attended
by one Henry Grady. One chapter in this work cites an example of a multi-billion dollar contract given
to the Textron corporation by Reza Shah II to illustrate how development cannot be bought. This work
includes an extended critique of the inability of contemporary macroeconomics to come to terms with
stagflation. It highlights the KMT’s success in implementing the Land to the Tiller program to catalyze
the growth of the first title entities, and uses military production and the Tennessee Valley Authority as
examples of “transactions of decline.” It cites Shinohata in Japan and Bardou in France to explain how
the first title entities provide markets, jobs, transplants, technology, and capital to generate the second
title phenomenon. For 10 points, what book, whose title references a work of Adam Smith, explains how
places like Los Angeles and Tokyo contribute to prosperity, and was written by Jane Jacobs?
ANSWER: Cities and the Wealth of Nations
The final two here are wrong in an interesting way - given that the father and son do not share a name, then you can't ever call him "Reza Shah II." There is no Iranian history book anywhere that would do this.

Shouts out to the many sets that do call him "Mohammed Reza Shah" in full.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:22 am

Also, Wikipedia, Britannica, and Encyclopedia Iranica consistently adhere to this name scheme.

Of note: the current pretender to the throne of Iran is Crown Prince Reza, so he could theoretically be called "Reza Shah II."
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Cheynem » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:53 am

Your overall point is correct, but I don't think there's anything wrong with taking Pahlavi by itself (to be fair, I see nothing wrong in taking Johnson by itself either for LBJ). There are only two Pahlavi dynasty members and one is not often asked about in high school--to me, this would be like just taking "Taft" for William Howard Taft in a high school set, even though Robert Taft was pretty important too.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:27 pm

Cheynem wrote:Your overall point is correct, but I don't think there's anything wrong with taking Pahlavi by itself (to be fair, I see nothing wrong in taking Johnson by itself either for LBJ). There are only two Pahlavi dynasty members and one is not often asked about in high school--to me, this would be like just taking "Taft" for William Howard Taft in a high school set, even though Robert Taft was pretty important too.
The standard practice I've encountered at tournaments is that I am always prompted on "Johnson" (I believe NAQT even has a rule about this), so operating from that baseline assumption I think Pahlavi would also need to be prompted.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by The Stately Rhododendron » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:37 pm

Cheynem wrote:Your overall point is correct, but I don't think there's anything wrong with taking Pahlavi by itself (to be fair, I see nothing wrong in taking Johnson by itself either for LBJ). There are only two Pahlavi dynasty members and one is not often asked about in high school--to me, this would be like just taking "Taft" for William Howard Taft in a high school set, even though Robert Taft was pretty important too.
Should "Orleans" be accepted for Louis Philippe? Your example isn't great, because "Pahlavi" isn't just their last name, like "Taft", it's their royal house! People refer to WH Taft as "Taft" all the time - we think of president by their last name, except when there's more than one. We never refer to royalty by their family name exclusively.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Important Bird Area » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:58 pm

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) wrote:
Cheynem wrote:Your overall point is correct, but I don't think there's anything wrong with taking Pahlavi by itself (to be fair, I see nothing wrong in taking Johnson by itself either for LBJ). There are only two Pahlavi dynasty members and one is not often asked about in high school--to me, this would be like just taking "Taft" for William Howard Taft in a high school set, even though Robert Taft was pretty important too.
The standard practice I've encountered at tournaments is that I am always prompted on "Johnson" (I believe NAQT even has a rule about this), so operating from that baseline assumption I think Pahlavi would also need to be prompted.
We don't have a formal rule about this, but our typical practice is to prompt on "Johnson" for U.S. president questions.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Cody » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:11 pm

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) wrote:
Cheynem wrote:Your overall point is correct, but I don't think there's anything wrong with taking Pahlavi by itself (to be fair, I see nothing wrong in taking Johnson by itself either for LBJ). There are only two Pahlavi dynasty members and one is not often asked about in high school--to me, this would be like just taking "Taft" for William Howard Taft in a high school set, even though Robert Taft was pretty important too.
The standard practice I've encountered at tournaments is that I am always prompted on "Johnson" (I believe NAQT even has a rule about this), so operating from that baseline assumption I think Pahlavi would also need to be prompted.
Prompting on Johnson for LBJ is a pet peeve of mine. It's my opinion that the standard practice is dumb.

Prompting is supposed to clarify the answer that a player is giving—giving players credit for a wrong answer, or credit for "multiple" answers at once, is against the spirit of the game.

Mike Cheyne notes one instance where you would not consider prompting: the other potential answers are not asked at the level the question is being asked at. This is the reason why you should be accepting "Bach" for J S Bach in regular-difficulty high school sets, despite the fact that many of his children are askable at higher levels. It's a good reason to accept Pahlavi by itself, and so it is an entirely different practice from prompting on Johnson (as Andrew Johnson and LBJ are both common enough answers in regular-difficulty high school sets).

Another reason not to prompt is when the answer given clearly refers to the correct answer. Say there is a question at Chicago Open on DeWitt Clinton or Bill Clinton that uses "he" to refer to the answerline. Prompting on "Clinton" just because there have been multiple Clintons in politics is asinine.

I welcome counter datapoints, but I believe it's just as asinine to prompt on Johnson just because Andrew Johnson and LBJ have both been presidents. Since when has anyone actually confused these two extremely different presidents that served a century apart? Unlike with John Adams and John Quincy Adams, there's zero potential for confusion given the time periods each lived in. Additionally, the chance of players actually gaining an edge by answering presidential questions with "Johnson" is nil (come November 8, people surnamed Johnson have been 4.44% of the presidents; prompting to distinguish them makes that 2.22%. You get way to slightly better returns just by naming a president in any ~50-100 year period that includes the time period implied by the question text).
Last edited by Cody on Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Corry » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:16 pm

I encountered this problem somewhat recently while editing for the HSNCT. I couldn't think of any particularly satisfactory way to set up an answer line for Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi. In my opinion, all of the following should be acceptable: Shah Pahlavi, Mohammed Reza, Mohammed Reza Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi, and just "Shah" (in the popular imagination, "Shah" always refers to the second dude). Even "Pahlavi" might be enough.

So I just copped out and asked for the Pahlavi Dynasty instead.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Important Bird Area » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:26 pm

Cody wrote:Prompting on Johnson for LBJ is a pet peeve of mine. It's my opinion that the standard practice is dumb.
What's your position re: "prompt on Roosevelt"?
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Cheynem » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:51 pm

The Roosevelts were slightly closer in time period; I sometimes prompt on them, I sometimes don't.

Maybe I'm just wacky--there was only one member of the House of Orleans to be king of France--so I might accept "Orleans" for Louis-Philippe.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Cody » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:52 pm

bird bird bird bird bird wrote:
Cody wrote:Prompting on Johnson for LBJ is a pet peeve of mine. It's my opinion that the standard practice is dumb.
What's your position re: "prompt on Roosevelt"?
I lean heavily towards prompting. They are very close in time period, very well-known, and someone could well mix up their policies (Square Deal vs New Deal; establishing national parks vs what the Civilian Conservation Corps did; both progressive in the non-party meaning of the term; etc.).

That said, I would have no problem with a question that says: accept Roosevelt after "this polio-stricken, wheelchair-bound President" has been read.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by The Stately Rhododendron » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:40 pm

Cheynem wrote:The Roosevelts were slightly closer in time period; I sometimes prompt on them, I sometimes don't.

Maybe I'm just wacky--there was only one member of the House of Orleans to be king of France--so I might accept "Orleans" for Louis-Philippe.
Coincidentally, I'm doing some historical research into the French Revolution and found that it was none other than Citoyen Michel Cheyne of the Convention nationale who proposed renaming Louis XVI as Citoyen Louis Capet. I thought it was about stripping him of his title and pedigree, but perhaps it was actually about convenience!
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by ProfessorIanDuncan » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:28 pm

I disagree with Cody about the prompting on DeWitt Clinton example, because George Clinton is a major figure in New York politics at more or less the same time period in American history. I would definitely confuse these two in a tossup.
I dont think its impossible that someone would end up saying something like Bill Clinton in that case simply because they blanked on a first name when they are prompted (I've done similar things).
The main problem is when you prompt someone on something like Reza Pahlavi, its possible that someone hasnt heard of his father, or Mohammed Reza Pahlavi as referred to as anything other than Shah Reza Pahlavi. (I've seen an analogous situation happen)
Cases such as Johnson and Roosevelt don't really fall under this category.
Additionally, if someone first lines a tossup on Roosevelt it seems reasonable to prompt them because at that point there isn't a lot of context to differentiate the two. (Presumably WW2 isnt mentioned in the first line of an FDR tossup or something like that).

I think Charlie's point comes down how strict you want to be on these things. If you think someone doesnt deserve points for failing to differentiate between Mohammed Reza Shah and his father, then obviously prompting of Reza Shah is the right thing to do. If you think its obvious that when someone says Reza Shah they unambiguously mean Mohammed Reza Shah, then just accept it outright. Although I'll agree with Charlie, that if you are using Mohammed Reza Pahlavi as a clue, you should be differentiating him from his father.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Cody » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:51 pm

ProfessorIanDuncan wrote:I disagree with Cody about the prompting on DeWitt Clinton example, because George Clinton is a major figure in New York politics at more or less the same time period in American history. I would definitely confuse these two in a tossup.
Oh, that's the other guy I couldn't remember. Sure, in that case I would prompt on "Clinton" for DeWitt Clinton. I would not prompt on "Clinton" for Bill Clinton.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:21 pm

Corry wrote:I encountered this problem somewhat recently while editing for the HSNCT. I couldn't think of any particularly satisfactory way to set up an answer line for Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi. In my opinion, all of the following should be acceptable: Shah Pahlavi, Mohammed Reza, Mohammed Reza Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi, and just "Shah" (in the popular imagination, "Shah" always refers to the second dude). Even "Pahlavi" might be enough.

So I just copped out and asked for the Pahlavi Dynasty instead.
ANSWER: Mohammad Reza Shah [or Mohammad Reza Pahlavi; prompt on "Pahlavi"; do not accept or prompt on "Reza"]

I disagree that "the shah" is in any way a correct or promptable answer, for what I think are obvious reasons about how many shahs of Iran there have been, many of whom are askable figures, especially his father. You have to draw the "things have names" line somewhere and this I think is well beyond that line.
I think Charlie's point comes down how strict you want to be on these things. If you think someone doesnt deserve points for failing to differentiate between Mohammed Reza Shah and his father, then obviously prompting of Reza Shah is the right thing to do. If you think its obvious that when someone says Reza Shah they unambiguously mean Mohammed Reza Shah, then just accept it outright.
My point is that there is no situation where saying "Reza" by itself is a correct answer for "Mohammad Reza" and that the current status quo of quizbowl and ill-informed western newspaper editors routinely just calling him "Reza" is a misleading inaccuracy. The rules about John Quincy Adams are actually especially applicable here -
NAQT's official rules wrote:In rare cases, an otherwise acceptable answer may be ruled incorrect when it creates ambiguity with another plausible answer (e.g., even though first and last names are almost always sufficient, John Adams would not be acceptable—or promptable—for John Quincy Adams, as it creates confusion with the full name of his presidential father.)
The only thing that is different here is that John Quincy could actually be called "John Adams" in some contexts by standard American naming conventions. Mohammad Reza cannot ever be properly called Reza. His regnal name should be treated no differently than if it were hyphenated. The exact reason I thought to post this thread is because this exact same rule was clarified in my class about the middle east today - if we ever call him "Reza Shah" on our final we will lose points.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:33 pm

The Stately Rhododendron wrote:
Cheynem wrote:Your overall point is correct, but I don't think there's anything wrong with taking Pahlavi by itself (to be fair, I see nothing wrong in taking Johnson by itself either for LBJ). There are only two Pahlavi dynasty members and one is not often asked about in high school--to me, this would be like just taking "Taft" for William Howard Taft in a high school set, even though Robert Taft was pretty important too.
Should "Orleans" be accepted for Louis Philippe? Your example isn't great, because "Pahlavi" isn't just their last name, like "Taft", it's their royal house! People refer to WH Taft as "Taft" all the time - we think of president by their last name, except when there's more than one. We never refer to royalty by their family name exclusively.
"Pahlavi" manages to be neither of these things - Reza Shah's birth name was Reza Khan, and he added Pahlavi to his name upon his accession simply because he decided if he named himself after an ancient Iranian language it would help link him to the glorious Aryan past.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:08 pm

I would never accept "The Shah of Iran" or "Shah Pahlavi" as an answer for this particular figure - though I'd certainly prompt on the latter. But I think it's accurate to say that this particular figure was referred to as "The Shah" and "Shah Pahlavi" in media and popular culture far more frequently than Louis-Philippe was referred to as "the King" or "King Orleans".
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Peter13 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:23 pm

I agree with aspects of everyone here that one should not just accept Reza Shah for Muhammad Reza. Prompting depends on the context and level given, but I do agree with other examples that one must look at the time period and relevance of the character and make a judgement on that. One thing to note: Would it be acceptable for me to accept Marquez for Gabriel Garcia Marquez? I can (off the top of my head) think of no other important Marquez that comes up in regular difficulty (and below) level tournaments. Obviously, this would show knowledge of the author, but at the same time, this is often prompted (or even not accepted at all) because of the syntax of Spanish names. I would really like to hear people's opinions on this versus the Reza Shah example.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by theMoMA » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:05 pm

In the Spanish naming tradition, individuals have a first name and two surnames: the paternal surname, which is the main family surname and comes first, and the maternal surname, which comes second. In this case, García is the family (paternal) surname, and Marquez is the maternal family name. The maternal name is typically not used to solely identify a family or individual. For instance, Francisco Franco's full name is Francisco Franco Bahamonde, but we know him as Francisco Franco, because the maternal name is typically dropped when stating an individual's first and last name.

There are many instances, however, in which people with Spanish surnames are identified by both the paternal and maternal names. This typically occurs when the family surname is common. (For instance, "García" is a very common surname in Spanish-speaking countries, and the most common in Spain; the authors Gabriel García Marquez and Federico García Lorca are thus referred to by both surnames as a means to disambiguate them from the many other Garcias of the world.)

In both Spanish-speaking countries and English-speaking ones, it is common to identify a person with a Spanish surname who goes by both their paternal and maternal surnames (i.e. García Marquez or García Lorca) by only the second (maternal) surname. For instance, it's common parlance to speak of the author "Lorca," and to a lesser extent, "Marquez."

To reflect this, a good answer line should indicate that the family surname (i.e. the paternal surname, in this case "García") is acceptable outright. If the maternal surname has achieved a sufficient status that it is commonly used on its own to identify the person, it should be acceptable outright as well; in cases such as García Marquez, where it's not as common to refer to the person as simply "Marquez," it may be more appropriate to prompt on the maternal surname, rather than accepting it outright.

Of course, the combination of the paternal and maternal surnames in the correct order should always be acceptable as well, regardless of whether the maternal surname is commonly used (i.e. "Franco Bahamonde" is just as acceptable as "Garcia Lorca," although "Bahamonde" on its own would not likely be acceptable or even promptable in the case of Franco, as he is never known by just that name).
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:33 pm

I do actually think that, despite the fact it may contradict my point above, the way quizbowl insists on saying "Garcia Lorca" is not correct because his name is SO widely written as "Lorca" in scholarly writing AND on the covers of his books in English (I do not think that Mohammed Reza Shah's name being misprinted as "Reza Shah" in some sources rises anywhere close to this level of widespread inaccuracy because it's not like his own writings are published under a misleading name. I guess I think it's less excusable for people to mistake his name than it is for a person to mistake the name of a guy who has had his books listed in the Library of Congress under "Lorca, Federico Garcia" before).

Here are many good examples of "Lorca" emphasis -
https://www.amazon.com/Lorca-Plays-Wedd ... ords=lorca
https://www.amazon.com/Selected-Poems-F ... ords=lorca
https://www.amazon.com/Lorca-Jimenez-Se ... nd+jimenez
https://www.amazon.com/Selected-Poems-F ... ords=lorca
https://www.amazon.com/Three-Tragedies- ... ords=lorca
https://www.amazon.com/Lorca-Dream-Life ... ords=lorca
Also many many hits on JSTOR - https://www.google.com/search?q=jstor&o ... Ajstor.org

I think it is not fair to the people who read these kinds of major publications of Garcia Lorca's work that they can say his most famous name and not get the points.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by theMoMA » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:40 pm

I wrote that "Lorca" should be acceptable: "If the maternal surname has achieved a sufficient status that it is commonly used on its own to identify the person, it should be acceptable outright as well."
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:41 pm

Yeah I was skimming and not reading closely, and just having the same visceral reaction I always do to this frequent yet frequently wrong answerline problem.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Peter13 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:19 pm

I agree with both of you (Charlie and Andrew). Relating back to the original point that I was trying to get at, it seems that there is some sort of point of acceptance between unacceptability (like in the Reza Shah example) and acceptability (Lorca). My point was where do we draw the line between these two (my best thought off the top of my head was to use Marquez). If we are going by knowledge to make the distinction, I would argue that the paternal name is many times irrelevant, but if we go by more of a referential / syntactical way of interpreting answerlines, then we cannot accept or prompt on things like Garcia Marquez or even Garcia Lorca. In my opinion at least, there is no set in stone way of dealing with this continuum, and the moderator must decide what to do. (Whether we should draw a line is another matter altogether).
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by sharkcrossing » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:04 am

Going off this, shouldn't we not accept Tokugawa for Tokugawa Ieyasu given Tokugawa Iemitsu and many of the other shoguns during that particular bakufu were important in Japanese history. Plus, similar to Pahlavi (which is kind of added on) Tokugawa is a name he gave himself later in his career. Shouldn't we need more specific answers in this case as well? This seems especially true as accepting simply Minamoto for Minamoto no Yoritomo would seem a bit odd to me. Also, it would seem odd that Mansa Musa is accepted as well. At the very least, Musa I should be required given that Mansa is simply a legal title and there were multiple mansas called musa. While the other "Mansa Musas" are admittedly much less important, it seems odd not to use the same system as naming European kings.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by jonpin » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:39 am

Cody wrote:
ProfessorIanDuncan wrote:I disagree with Cody about the prompting on DeWitt Clinton example, because George Clinton is a major figure in New York politics at more or less the same time period in American history. I would definitely confuse these two in a tossup.
Oh, that's the other guy I couldn't remember. Sure, in that case I would prompt on "Clinton" for DeWitt Clinton. I would not prompt on "Clinton" for Bill Clinton.
This seems quite strange. Were Hillary Clinton to become President, would you maintain this position, on the basis that "Well, one of them is a 'he' and one of them is a 'she', so there's no need to prompt to distinguish them?" Especially if a question is written so as to delay the use of a gender-determining pronoun, that doesn't seem like a good idea.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Cheynem » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:46 am

Typically, "Musa" is the only thing underlined in Mansa Musa. We usually just accept Musa because especially at lower levels you are not going to ask about any other Musa.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Cody » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:56 am

jonpin wrote:
Cody wrote:
ProfessorIanDuncan wrote:I disagree with Cody about the prompting on DeWitt Clinton example, because George Clinton is a major figure in New York politics at more or less the same time period in American history. I would definitely confuse these two in a tossup.
Oh, that's the other guy I couldn't remember. Sure, in that case I would prompt on "Clinton" for DeWitt Clinton. I would not prompt on "Clinton" for Bill Clinton.
This seems quite strange. Were Hillary Clinton to become President, would you maintain this position, on the basis that "Well, one of them is a 'he' and one of them is a 'she', so there's no need to prompt to distinguish them?" Especially if a question is written so as to delay the use of a gender-determining pronoun, that doesn't seem like a good idea.
That's the situation I set up in my first post: the question uses "he" (or similar) to refer to the answerline. Otherwise, yes, you would need to prompt.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:43 am

sharkcrossing wrote:Going off this, shouldn't we not accept Tokugawa for Tokugawa Ieyasu given Tokugawa Iemitsu and many of the other shoguns during that particular bakufu were important in Japanese history.
Who accepts this? At any tournament I've been involved in, saying "Tokugawa" gets you a prompt. There have been many questions on other Tokugawas, at least at the college level.
Plus, similar to Pahlavi (which is kind of added on) Tokugawa is a name he gave himself later in his career. Shouldn't we need more specific answers in this case as well? This seems especially true as accepting simply Minamoto for Minamoto no Yoritomo would seem a bit odd to me. Also, it would seem odd that Mansa Musa is accepted as well. At the very least, Musa I should be required given that Mansa is simply a legal title and there were multiple mansas called musa. While the other "Mansa Musas" are admittedly much less important, it seems odd not to use the same system as naming European kings.
I think what's happening here is that, on paper, quizbowl adheres to a strict rule, but in practice quizbowl frequently violates this rule to accept answers based on what people are commonly called even if that common usage is technically incorrect. Perhaps this thread is a call to move quizbowl's on-paper rules closer to the latter standard.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by jonpin » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:22 pm

Cody wrote:
jonpin wrote:
Cody wrote:
ProfessorIanDuncan wrote:I disagree with Cody about the prompting on DeWitt Clinton example, because George Clinton is a major figure in New York politics at more or less the same time period in American history. I would definitely confuse these two in a tossup.
Oh, that's the other guy I couldn't remember. Sure, in that case I would prompt on "Clinton" for DeWitt Clinton. I would not prompt on "Clinton" for Bill Clinton.
This seems quite strange. Were Hillary Clinton to become President, would you maintain this position, on the basis that "Well, one of them is a 'he' and one of them is a 'she', so there's no need to prompt to distinguish them?" Especially if a question is written so as to delay the use of a gender-determining pronoun, that doesn't seem like a good idea.
That's the situation I set up in my first post: the question uses "he" (or similar) to refer to the answerline. Otherwise, yes, you would need to prompt.
I don't like this practice at all. Both Bill and Hillary Clinton are established figures in their own right in the same epoch. At this point, _Clinton_ needs to be prompted for either one of them in basically any case.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Cody » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:30 pm

jonpin wrote:
Cody wrote:
jonpin wrote:
Cody wrote:
ProfessorIanDuncan wrote:I disagree with Cody about the prompting on DeWitt Clinton example, because George Clinton is a major figure in New York politics at more or less the same time period in American history. I would definitely confuse these two in a tossup.
Oh, that's the other guy I couldn't remember. Sure, in that case I would prompt on "Clinton" for DeWitt Clinton. I would not prompt on "Clinton" for Bill Clinton.
This seems quite strange. Were Hillary Clinton to become President, would you maintain this position, on the basis that "Well, one of them is a 'he' and one of them is a 'she', so there's no need to prompt to distinguish them?" Especially if a question is written so as to delay the use of a gender-determining pronoun, that doesn't seem like a good idea.
That's the situation I set up in my first post: the question uses "he" (or similar) to refer to the answerline. Otherwise, yes, you would need to prompt.
I don't like this practice at all. Both Bill and Hillary Clinton are established figures in their own right in the same epoch. At this point, _Clinton_ needs to be prompted for either one of them in basically any case.
It's my opinion that prompts should be only be used when clarification is truly necessary. I believe that saying "this man did x" removes the need for clarification between Bill & Hillary Clinton. Cases where it isn't as clear? Sure. But, writers need to think through how their question interacts with the potential answerlines—there are times where issuing a prompt on something may be correct in the general case, but not in the specific case of the question being read.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:35 pm

What do we lose by prompting on Clinton? The prompt adds perhaps 6 seconds to the game.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by sharkcrossing » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:01 pm

I have yet to find a single tournament that prompts on Tokugawa for Tokugawa Ieyasu. Maybe I am simply looking in the wrong places, but all the high school and college packets I can find simply have Tokugawa underlined or have both Tokugawa and Ieyasu underlined but it instructs to accept both.

In actuality, I understand why Musa does not warrant a prompt (at virtually any level of play in my opinion) for Musa I. I was not actually suggesting that Tokugawa or Mansa Musa deserves a prompt, I was merely gathering similar cases to Mohamed Reza Shah Pahlavi that also accept only part of the name. To be clear, Tokugawa virtually never deserves a prompt to me. When actually discussing Tokugawa Ieyasu in the context of Japanese history, it is very uncommon to refer to him by his full name. Usually discussions of other shoguns of the era (most importantly Tokugawa Iemitsu) do warrant mentioning both names and thus a prompt should be given on non-Ieyasu members of the shogunate in my opinion.

I find difficulty justifying prompting on Pahlavi, especially at low levels of play, for the reason that the name Shah Pahlavi is such a commonly used name to refer to Mohamed Reza.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Victor Prieto » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:13 pm

Skepticism and Animal Feed wrote:
sharkcrossing wrote:Going off this, shouldn't we not accept Tokugawa for Tokugawa Ieyasu given Tokugawa Iemitsu and many of the other shoguns during that particular bakufu were important in Japanese history.
Who accepts this? At any tournament I've been involved in, saying "Tokugawa" gets you a prompt. There have been many questions on other Tokugawas, at least at the college level.
I don't know if we hold Nobunaga in greater esteem than Tokugawa, but
Arthur, B.; [i]The Spring Offensive[/i]; 2010, p. 8. wrote:ANSWER: Oda Nobunaga (accept either name)
Some more answerlines scattered across various tournaments over the past six years:
2011 Chicago Open History Tournament wrote:ANSWER: Oda Nobunaga (accept either)
2011 Early Autumn Collegiate Novice wrote:ANSWER: Oda Nobunaga [accept either]
[quote="Penn Bowl 2013: Do Not Accept or Prompt on "Cloaking""]ANSWER: Oda Nobunaga [prompt on “Oda”][/quote]
VCU Open 2015 wrote:ANSWER: Oda Nobunaga [prompt on: Nobunaga]
Missouri Open 2015 wrote:ANSWER: Oda Nobunaga
MLK 2016 wrote:ANSWER: Oda Nobunaga <WN>
The last one I commented about in the MLK discussion thread. I really would like to advocate Max's approach and prompt Japanese names to avoid unfairly boning people who just don't know which name to say, since I believe there's just too much variation in the names people encounter in their own studies.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:16 pm

There's pretty much no other askable members of the Oda clan at below-CO difficulty, and certainly no others which are askable as tossup answers. This is not true of the Tokugawa clan. That said, I think "Tokugawa" should be prompted unless the question says "this member of the Tokugawa clan"

Prompting for Musa, as noted, makes no sense because Musa just means "Moses" and that name (by itself) refers only to the Abrahamic character in standard use.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Corry » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:45 pm

Skepticism and Animal Feed wrote:
sharkcrossing wrote:Going off this, shouldn't we not accept Tokugawa for Tokugawa Ieyasu given Tokugawa Iemitsu and many of the other shoguns during that particular bakufu were important in Japanese history.
Who accepts this? At any tournament I've been involved in, saying "Tokugawa" gets you a prompt. There have been many questions on other Tokugawas, at least at the college level.
For NAQT, last year's HSNCT and ICT DII both accepted Tokugawa outright, and prompted on Ieyasu.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Camille Palkia » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:45 am

I understand we're veering off the original topic, but regarding Japanese names, I think its a bit lax to err completely on the side of prompting any negligible part of a name. Even when "uniquely" identifying within the context of their particular field (e.g. literature translated in English), prompting an answer like "Yukio" or "Kenzaburo" to me is equivalent to prompting someone on "Laszlo" or "Jhumpa" or "Flannery". If you would never do that for those people, why do it for Japan?

Conversely, it is important to understand the contexts in which someone is more likely to be uniquely identified or exclusively referred to by their first name - this is usually when the first name is an art name or a pseudonym, e.g. Katsushika Hokusai or Izumi Kyoka. For these people, even when basically exclusively referred to in print by their "given" name and answering with the surname seems illogical, either should be acceptable.

As for historical figures and clan members, I think it is fair to basically extend the above rule, but factor in that major clans cannot be uniquely identifying and need prompts. The Oda clan does not contain any other truly prominent members, Oda Nobunaga, but Taira no Kiyomori or Minamoto no Yoshitsune should never accept just a clan name. My concern is where this rule logically ends. What is the community consensus on someone like Fujiwara no Michinaga? Arguably the least logically clear, strict rules should dictate Murakami Haruki should always need a prompt on Murakami at at a collegiate level even when this defies common sense. I would like to see people with more vested interest come to a clear and consistent ruling convention on this.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:58 am

I agree with Foster's position on Japanese names. I would think of Japanese clans as similar to other noble/royal houses in this respect - you would never just take "Hohenstaufen" for Frederick Barbarossa (and frankly I don't know if you even deserve a prompt on that, but I guess generosity is in order) or just "Liu" for the founder of the Han dynasty, Liu Bang.

I would disagree with the idea that prompting on Murakami at the college level (at least above ACF Fall) defies common sense - Murakami Ryu is definitely askable (at least as a bonus part) above ACF Fall, and he's probably tossupable at high levels. Similarly, accepting Tokugawa alone is rational until you get past the ACF Fall level, at which point other Tokugawa people definitely are reasonably askable and you should be prompting. Ieyasu alone should be accepted as a uniquely identifying answer at all levels of play - just google "Ieyasu" and see how many other people show up as results!

EDITED: As for Michinaga, I'd apply the same Google test - googling "Michinaga" doesn't really get you a whole lot of results besides the Fujiwara guy, so I would accept his given name alone (and prompt on his family name). Same with Kamatari - at least, if the context is clearly Japan, and we're not talking about exiled Burundians or manga characters.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Camille Palkia » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:23 am

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:I would disagree with the idea that prompting on Murakami at the college level (at least above ACF Fall) defies common sense - Murakami Ryu is definitely askable (at least as a bonus part) above ACF Fall, and he's probably tossupable at high levels. Similarly, accepting Tokugawa alone is rational until you get past the ACF Fall level, at which point other Tokugawa people definitely are reasonably askable and you should be prompting. Ieyasu alone should be accepted as a uniquely identifying answer at all levels of play - just google "Ieyasu" and see how many other people show up as results!
To clarify, my point was not a comment on the merit of Murakami Ryuu's work or his stature as a literary figure - but rather, as it is now, demanding a prompt on Murakami is anti-transparent, it makes immediately clear that the writer has written a question or bonus part on Murakami R. In order for questions on him to properly exist, it would demand consistently requiring a prompt at all levels of play, and for all moderators to put that into practice and not reflexively accept just "Murakami" when knowledge is clear, which is perhaps paradoxical.
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:EDITED: As for Michinaga, I'd apply the same Google test - googling "Michinaga" doesn't really get you a whole lot of results besides the Fujiwara guy, so I would accept his given name alone (and prompt on his family name). Same with Kamatari - at least, if the context is clearly Japan, and we're not talking about exiled Burundians or manga characters.
For this, I was really hoping to get a consensus from people at what difficulty point more information than "Fujiwara" is necessary. It is more nebulous to me which individual Fujiwara clan members are prominent enough that this becomes necessary.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:28 pm

I think Murakami should be prompted (for Haruki) at above ACF Fall difficulty and outright accepted at lower difficulty. Frankly, I think it really has to depend on level of play to determine what is "reasonable" - though I'm not opposed on principle to having the same standard for all levels of play.

As for Fujiwara, there are several different important Fujiwaras. Frankly, I'm not sure which is most famous, but I would probably be inclined to prompt no matter what.
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Re: PSA: Mohammed Reza Shah is not "Reza Shah"

Post by jasongg17 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:02 pm

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:I think Murakami should be prompted (for Haruki) at above ACF Fall difficulty and outright accepted at lower difficulty. Frankly, I think it really has to depend on level of play to determine what is "reasonable" - though I'm not opposed on principle to having the same standard for all levels of play.

As for Fujiwara, there are several different important Fujiwaras. Frankly, I'm not sure which is most famous, but I would probably be inclined to prompt no matter what.
Definitely with Will on this one. I doubt anybody but Michinaga would ever be tossed up, but a bunch of the early Heian Fujiwaras are definitely worthy of being asked as Nats/CO-level hard parts.
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