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Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:45 pm
by Nine-Tenths Ideas
I think the only reason this post is remotely controversial is because of its tone. Frankly, the idea that maintaining a modicum of personal grooming habits is a cause for debate seems kind of worrisome. If you're not gonna cut your hair, at least wash it?

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:45 pm
by AKKOLADE
My wife played one VHSL tournament in high school I think. She's been kind enough to staff one my tournaments. I've had to explain to her the concept of quiz bowl funk, which still exists in the Year of our Lord 2018, so she wouldn't be so disgusted that she'd never staff a tournament again. NAQT should be not be sponsored by LetterOne but by Right Guard.

We've had serious threads on this forum about the importance of belts so that nobody has to see your personal supermoon any time your position shifts from "standing up."

My casual wear standards are a clean t-shirt that isn't wrinkled and jeans that fit. I've seen these standards unmet many times at tournaments.

At this point, I'd 100% believe that NAQT enclosing a pamphlet entitled "Toothpaste and You: an Educational Journey" with every set of questions would be a worthwhile investment.

The idea that a thread that is basically 'hey, grooming is good' is completely unnecessary is a completely unnecessary idea. Joe Nutter could just post the lyrics to Del the Funky Homosapien's "If You Must" and it'd be useful to at least 5% of quiz bowl.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:53 pm
by A Very Long Math Tossup
The problem isn't the post itself. It's a discussion that we, as a community, need to have. The problem is Charlie's sweeping generalizations about what constitutes "good hair."

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:00 pm
by AKKOLADE
Charlie Dees using exaggeration as a rhetorical device, my stars and garters.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:01 pm
by xarlev
Dressing decently, described using QuizBowl terms:

The (reverse pyramid) tossup of good clothes:
Giveaway: for ten points, your clothes are the correct size.
Stock clues: Not much excess fabric. No sweat pants or fedoras. The seam where your sleeve starts lines up with the corner of your shoulder. No cargo shorts. A collared shirt when appropriate (probably every tournament, especially when staffing). Colors that go together. A belt.
Real knowledge: Nice, clean shoes/boots. Dark-colored, high quality denim. Fits that are conscious of online trends.
First line: Having a strong personal aesthetic, breaking some of the rules.

The bonus of a good haircut:
For ten points each:
Easy part: [10] Your haircut is shorter on the sides than on the top.
Medium part: [10] Your haircut works well with your face shape.
Hard part: [10] Some kind of undercut, taper, fade, or other detailed style.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:04 pm
by The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
Hair is hair, and rarely directly affects anyone else outside its bearer at quiz bowl events. I'd be happy if everyone just showered thoroughly, brushed their teeth, and put on a clean change of clothing on the mornings of tournaments, or even the night before.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:07 pm
by Cheynem
As Charlie and a few others have pointed out, the point is less about the specific hairstyle you're wearing and more about actually taking time to think about your grooming.

I'll say there's a difference between being an unkempt slob and wearing your hair in a "non-traditional" manner. While I might chuckle at you or look down at you if I find your specific hairstyle goofy or unflattering, I'm probably not going to find you disgusting or repulsive, whereas if you're just a slob who doesn't brush your hair and got out of bed five minutes ago, I might. I think Eric's point is fairly instructive--he's a pretty handsome guy who looks a lot like John Stamos when he cleans up, but at a lot of tournaments, he looked pretty slovenly. I don't think this was a conscious fashion decision; he just didn't clean up. As he himself notes, that's kind of jarring when he saw pictures of himself later.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:23 pm
by ErikC
I find it pretty sad how many posts there are in this (hilarious) thread compared to discussion about recent tournaments and other subjects.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:25 pm
by Auks Ran Ova
ErikC wrote:I find it pretty sad how many posts there are in this (hilarious) thread compared to discussion about recent tournaments and other subjects.
Tournaments these days are generally pretty good and don't generally prompt lots of heated discussion; grooming, on the other hand, is still lagging a bit behind.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:39 pm
by ErikC
Auks Ran Ova wrote:
ErikC wrote:I find it pretty sad how many posts there are in this (hilarious) thread compared to discussion about recent tournaments and other subjects.
Tournaments these days are generally pretty good and don't generally prompt lots of heated discussion; grooming, on the other hand, is still lagging a bit behind.
Discussion shouldn't just be the old complaining about specific questions but that's what most people like so I guess that's how it's gonna be.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:45 pm
by Habitat_Against_Humanity
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) wrote:
Are you straight?
Are you identified as a man?
Are you adopting a fashion to intentionally be provocative?
Are you wearing your hair in such a way that it says something about your self-expression?
Are you wearing your hair in a way that you feel looks actively better than other, more traditional options, for purely aesthetic purposes? Especially a way that other people agree on?
Or are you just being lazy and then hiding behind other defenses to avoid basic expectations of cleanliness?
- Rupi Kaur


Seriously though, Charlie's right about everything in this thread. Try and look decent people.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:49 pm
by The Atom Strikes!
At ACF Nationals and ICT in 2013, my teammates and I had an extensive discussion of who the most handsome/stylish quizbowl men were. Here is an (incomplete) list of people associated with quizbowl who dress and groom themselves in ways that work for them, who look damn good, and who you might think about emulating:

Eric Mukherjee
Andrew Hart
Rob Carson
Dallas Simons
Marshall Steinbaum
Daichi Ueda
Spence Weinreich
Jeremy Eaton
Alex Gross
Jerry Vinokurov

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:14 pm
by The Ununtiable Twine
Chris Borglum and Matt Hayes should be commended for their fedora mastery.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:40 pm
by eliza.grames
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:And honestly, I do think it could do a lot for improving the game's gender balance.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? You honestly think that this is why women play quiz bowl? That we're just bimbos who are here to stare at men who play quiz bowl, and not because, oh, I dunno, we like playing quiz bowl or some nonsense like that? I'm so glad you've come up with a plan to improve the gender balance by hiring male models to staff all tournaments; I'm sure it includes a section on "making quiz bowl pink" too.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:47 pm
by Cheynem
I'm thinking Will meant more along the lines of "less unkempt slobs is more appealing to everyone." I'm straight, but I would rather be around a man who takes care of his personal grooming than someone who doesn't. I see that as more of an universal than a gendered issue, though, as I would assume almost everyone would concur.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:48 pm
by theMoMA
At the risk of staining my beautiful stylish clothing by wading into this pool of muck, I think a charitable reading of Will's post suggests he means that men should not to be actively repulsive so as to drive away women (and presumably, other men with higher standards of personal grooming and/or easily offended noses), not that women would be drawn to the newly found magnetism of quizbowl's men once their patina of filth and ill-fitting attire was wiped away. (As I see Mike has also just posted.)

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:19 pm
by Aaron's Rod
eliza.grames wrote:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:And honestly, I do think it could do a lot for improving the game's gender balance.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? You honestly think that this is why women play quiz bowl? That we're just bimbos who are here to stare at men who play quiz bowl, and not because, oh, I dunno, we like playing quiz bowl or some nonsense like that? I'm so glad you've come up with a plan to improve the gender balance by hiring male models to staff all tournaments; I'm sure it includes a section on "making quiz bowl pink" too.
Yeah, I don't think that's what Will was getting at. For all the discomfort of being the only, or one of the only, people in the room in a certain category (gender, sexuality, I'll assume also race, etc.) it increases my discomfort if the other people also look like they just crawled out of a hole.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:27 pm
by Fat Lip
eliza.grames wrote:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:And honestly, I do think it could do a lot for improving the game's gender balance.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? You honestly think that this is why women play quiz bowl? That we're just bimbos who are here to stare at men who play quiz bowl, and not because, oh, I dunno, we like playing quiz bowl or some nonsense like that? I'm so glad you've come up with a plan to improve the gender balance by hiring male models to staff all tournaments; I'm sure it includes a section on "making quiz bowl pink" too.
I'm actually working on making buzzers that don't buzz as loudly as the buzzers for men.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:03 pm
by Æthelred the Unready Steady Cook
I'm increasingly convinced this is just the blue eyes-brown eyes social experiment but with hairstyles.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:06 pm
by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
eliza.grames wrote:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:And honestly, I do think it could do a lot for improving the game's gender balance.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? You honestly think that this is why women play quiz bowl? That we're just bimbos who are here to stare at men who play quiz bowl, and not because, oh, I dunno, we like playing quiz bowl or some nonsense like that? I'm so glad you've come up with a plan to improve the gender balance by hiring male models to staff all tournaments; I'm sure it includes a section on "making quiz bowl pink" too.
sorry Wang Anshi, Eliza exposed the backup plan I came up with in case you somehow didn't get into residency!

Here is my hypothesis: Based on my observations of human social behavior and gender relations, women are more likely to be disinclined to sticking around a space full of smelly, unkempt men than men are. Speculating as to what those reasons are is beyond my scope.

Here is a list of things that are not my hypothesis:
1) Women are not interested in intellectual activities
2) Women only want to be around attractive people
3) Women are necessarily bad at quizbowl
4) Men are not also repulsed by smelly people with bad facial and other hair, poor apparel decisions, etc.

Of course, these can all be conveniently ignored in order to call people sexists in public!

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:47 pm
by eliza.grames
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: cut down on your sucrose consumption
Oh I'm sorry, (straight) men of quiz bowl, are you grossed out by men who don't cut down on their sucrose consumption? Are overweight teammates something that would cause you to not play quiz bowl? I think we can all agree showering is a universally nice thing and most people are grossed out if you don't shower regularly, but I'm pretty sure Will's sexist comments are only pointed at "improving the gender balance" and getting more women involved based on physical appearances.

P.S. Sorry for leaving out queer people in my rants - ya'll matter too and I'm sorry for being heteronormative in my posts.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:57 pm
by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
eliza.grames wrote:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: cut down on your sucrose consumption
Oh I'm sorry, (straight) men of quiz bowl, are you grossed out by men who don't cut down on their sucrose consumption? Are overweight teammates something that would cause you to not play quiz bowl? I think we can all agree showering is a universally nice thing and most people are grossed out if you don't shower regularly, but I'm pretty sure Will's sexist comments are only pointed at "improving the gender balance" and getting more women involved based on physical appearances.
maybe this is just prominent in my mind because my job involves looking at statistics about the medical cost of diseases caused directly by excess glucose consumption, speaking with professionals who talk about its deleterious effects, etc. perhaps i generally care about the health of members of a community that has contributed a great deal to my personal development and intellectual growth

or perhaps we should all shut up and pretend that excess sugar consumption isn't a top of America's health problems no matter what your gender is

and, of course, call me a sexist while you're at it

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:01 pm
by The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
I know that as a man, I'm not scared of the wimpy things like bad smells. I'm manly enough to be scared of criticism, self-evaluation, and constructive dialogue.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:14 pm
by Guile Island
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
eliza.grames wrote:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: cut down on your sucrose consumption
Oh I'm sorry, (straight) men of quiz bowl, are you grossed out by men who don't cut down on their sucrose consumption? Are overweight teammates something that would cause you to not play quiz bowl? I think we can all agree showering is a universally nice thing and most people are grossed out if you don't shower regularly, but I'm pretty sure Will's sexist comments are only pointed at "improving the gender balance" and getting more women involved based on physical appearances.
maybe this is just prominent in my mind because my job involves looking at statistics about the medical cost of diseases caused directly by excess glucose consumption, speaking with professionals who talk about its deleterious effects, etc. perhaps i generally care about the health of members of a community that has contributed a great deal to my personal development and intellectual growth

or perhaps we should all shut up and pretend that excess sugar consumption isn't a top of America's health problems no matter what your gender is

and, of course, call me a sexist while you're at it
fat person here: shut uppppppppppppppppppppp

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:21 pm
by eliza.grames
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:or perhaps we should all shut up and pretend that excess sugar consumption isn't a top of America's health problems no matter what your gender is
Yes, I'm sure that addressing "excess sugar consumption" will immediately resolve quiz bowl's gender gap. I, for one, am extremely concerned about America's top health problems and the excess sucrose intake by male quiz bowl players really gives me pause about attending tournaments. I can only assume that other women are staying far away from an activity that could lead to health complications. Will is not at all suggesting that he's sexist and women would only get more involved if quiz bowl men were in great shape and had lovely haircuts. He's very, very concerned about diabetes.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:27 pm
by Perturbed Secretary Bird
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: Based on my observations of human social behavior and gender relations, women are more likely to be disinclined to sticking around a space full of smelly, unkempt men than men are. Speculating as to what those reasons are is beyond my scope.
Dude, we are calling you sexist because you are making essentialist statements about women (and fat people!). Please stop doing this. This type of behavior is why women dislike quizbowl.
Sima Guang Hater wrote: If you're turning away members because of your appearance or behavior, that's a problem.
Wow, you might be onto something with this behavior thing. Please let women speak for themselves about what drives us away from quizbowl.

P.S. Eliza, I love and support what you are doing.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:29 pm
by Fuddle Duddle
Remember kiddies every time you eat a snickers at least three women quit an activity they've otherwise loved participating in for years

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:32 pm
by Aaron's Rod
eliza.grames wrote:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:or perhaps we should all shut up and pretend that excess sugar consumption isn't a top of America's health problems no matter what your gender is
Yes, I'm sure that addressing "excess sugar consumption" will immediately resolve quiz bowl's gender gap. I, for one, am extremely concerned about America's top health problems and the excess sucrose intake by male quiz bowl players really gives me pause about attending tournaments. I can only assume that other women are staying far away from an activity that could lead to health complications. Will is not at all suggesting that he's sexist and women would only get more involved if quiz bowl men were in great shape and had lovely haircuts. He's very, very concerned about diabetes.
I think you're maintaining a ridiculously ungracious view of what Will said (uh, in his first couple of posts, not sure why we're talking about diabetes now). You've taken one thing that he's said about eating healthfully and really strung it out ad absurdum. Can we not? People were already giving general life advice, commenting on a thing that offers obvious health benefits is not out of line. Will has already said that he doesn't think that women aren't interested in quizbowl or are only interested in quizbowl for men, or that men also don't want people to shower. Maybe take that at face value instead of trying to read ridiculous things in to what you think he's said?
eliza.grames wrote:P.S. Sorry for leaving out queer people in my rants - ya'll matter too and I'm sorry for being heteronormative in my posts.
The Gays would also like people to shower, for the record.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:36 pm
by Olivia.K
Athena: Eliza, I love and support what you are doing.
I'd just like to also say that I also love and support what Eliza's doing.

Also:
As an card-carrying Gay, all I can say is that... uh, maybe please, please shower. Not to make yourself attractive. Just because it's a reasonable human thing to do.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:43 pm
by ryanrosenberg
My issue with Will's initial post is that the advice he offered (engaging in "intense" physical exercise, eating more healthily, using facial products) seemed much more tailored towards the goal of "being (sexually) attractive to other people", not "being presentable for an extracurricular activity".

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:44 pm
by Fuddle Duddle
Granny Soberer wrote:My issue with Will's initial post is that the advice he offered (engaging in "intense" physical exercise, eating more healthily, using facial products) seemed much more tailored towards the goal of "being (sexually) attractive to other people", not "being presentable for an extracurricular activity".
Yeah it's all solid advice but most of it wasn't terribly germane to the thread

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:59 pm
by xarlev
Yeah I was on board with the fashionposting but maybe let's not give dietary advice to an abstracted mental image of a group of strangers.

Also chiming in with the rest of The Gays to say take a shower.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:16 pm
by jinah
I wanted to clarify something about Eric's specific comments about the gender imbalance in quizbowl: this came out of a specific discussion among members of our team, and is not just some dude going off about what women want. The quote "girl comes to one tournament/practice, sees a bunch of unkempt/whatever guys, thinks yikes and doesn't come back" itself is directly from a (lesbian!) girl on our team.

She, Jaimie, and I all pretty much agree that the idea of joining a club full of extremely unkempt and poorly-dressed men is off-putting. I personally view it as a signaling thing; generally speaking, places dominated by men who appear to have taken no pains with their appearance are also places where women are regarded as outsiders. As someone who started playing quizbowl in college, I highly doubt I would have continued with the game if my teammates had been extremely messy or unkempt, not because I play quizbowl to ogle men with nice haircuts, but because having bad hair is tends to be part of a general package of not giving a shit how you come across to other people, which usually results in pretty obnoxious behavior (and is generally a luxury only afforded to men). Obviously, this does not mean that we think well-dressed men treat women well, and poorly-dressed men treat women poorly, or that having a bad haircut is some kind of grave moral sin*.

tl;dr: I think, and my (female!) teammates agree, that seeing a bunch of unshaven, unwashed men in poorly-fitting clothes talking loudly among each other would give me the impression that this is not a space that is friendly or welcoming to me (which, incidentally, is also how I feel reading angry ad hominem-filled forum threads).

*The exception here is goatees, which really should only be worn by cartoonish supervillains.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:20 pm
by The Ununtiable Twine
it has been scientifically proven that taking a shower before a tournament will increase your power numbers, so do it

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:22 pm
by Taper or die. Can you do any less?
So I only skimmed this thread, but as far as I can tell, this is the only thing that needs a response.
Sima Guang Hater wrote:It's stuff like this that cheapens the entire message to the point of irrelevance. No one's consciousness is being raised and no one's mind is being changed by taking this kind of attitude, nor is it actually going to get a rise out of the kind of people who need their feathers ruffled.

If wearing nail polish and lipstick is part of your gender identity, you're obviously free to express it how you choose. But being nonconformist for no good reason (and subsequently conflating laziness or unprofessionalism with making a statement) is frankly part of the problem.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I was in a sour mood when I posted that, and really just wanted to be as confrontational as possible. I did not mean the bolded part.
The grandmother is {wise, dead}. wrote:I wore lipstick and nail polish to SCT this year with the explicit intention of making narrow-minded people uncomfortable.
Here's what I meant: I'm enjoying hesitantly and timorously pushing the boundaries on the binary because I want to. Makeup is the latest step in that, and because QuizBowl is largely the entirety of my social life, SCT was a big step for me. I was nervous about it, and my defence mechanism was to be as combative as possible. I find it easier to avoid feeling hurt or attacked if I'm too busy feeling angry and defensive instead. So my attitude was definitely "walking in ready to fight". It made it easier for me. I essentially did the same thing when dealing with sexual orientation matters in the Middle East. Hope that clarifies things!

Having said that,
Sima Guang Hater wrote:What exactly are you accomplishing by doing this at the University of Waterloo, a liberal institution of higher learning, represented in parliament by a Liberal of Indian Descent, surrounded by quizbowlers who almost universally support the rights of LGBT people?
These are bad, BAD things to say, and you should not say them. If you'd like to know about my experiences, feel free to reach out. But do NOT presume to know what someone's life is like based on their MP and educational institution.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:26 pm
by Taper or die. Can you do any less?
Two other stray thoughts:

1) I will say that I agree with the general message of this thread. However, the tone is horribly condescending and rather mean-spirited. The bizarre references to "gay neighbourhoods" infuriated me, and I'm not entirely sure why. And in general telling people how to live their lives is bad. That goes for hair and sucrose consumption.

2) Eliza is correct and has my support. I also chortled at the suggestion that *this* is what's needed to fix QuizBowl's gender imbalance, but women should lead that conversation.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:27 pm
by Auks Ran Ova
The grandmother is {wise, dead}. wrote: Here's what I meant: I'm enjoying hesitantly and timorously pushing the boundaries on the binary because I want to. Makeup is the latest step in that, and because QuizBowl is largely the entirety of my social life, SCT was a big step for me. I was nervous about it, and my defence mechanism was to be as combative as possible. I find it easier to avoid feeling hurt or attacked if I'm too busy feeling angry and defensive instead. So my attitude was definitely "walking in ready to fight". It made it easier for me. I essentially did the same thing when dealing with sexual orientation matters in the Middle East. Hope that clarifies things!

Having said that,
Sima Guang Hater wrote:What exactly are you accomplishing by doing this at the University of Waterloo, a liberal institution of higher learning, represented in parliament by a Liberal of Indian Descent, surrounded by quizbowlers who almost universally support the rights of LGBT people?
These are bad, BAD things to say, and you should not say them. If you'd like to know about my experiences, feel free to reach out. But do NOT presume to know what someone's life is like based on their MP and educational institution.
Not that you need my personal approval, but this is a good post!

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:30 pm
by ErikC
The grandmother is {wise, dead}. wrote:
Sima Guang Hater wrote:What exactly are you accomplishing by doing this at the University of Waterloo, a liberal institution of higher learning, represented in parliament by a Liberal of Indian Descent, surrounded by quizbowlers who almost universally support the rights of LGBT people?
These are bad, BAD things to say, and you should not say them. If you'd like to know about my experiences, feel free to reach out. But do NOT presume to know what someone's life is like based on their MP and educational institution.
I'd like to add that most students don't vote for the MP here, and the student body is not really related to the rest of the city and has people from across the country and from around the world that, like many other campuses, have people with very different social beliefs. This isn't to mention the sexism and related homophobia that happens in tech-bro circles.

I'd also like to add that I haven't really seen much of what Mr. Dees is talking about, but perhaps it just doesn't bother me.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:35 pm
by Perturbed Secretary Bird
In response to JinAh's post- that's very good to hear that was a report of real opinions, thank you.
Different women have different worldviews (gasp!), and I personally have been pretty oblivious to hygiene as a signaling device, probably because it wasn't one of my stronger points in the past. And some of the better-groomed men in quizbowl have been the ones who have expressed the most sexist views.
But that's the point- I want qb dudes to stop generalizing about what they think qb women think.

P.S. I also 1000% endorse Aayush's messages.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:43 pm
by eliza.grames
Auks Ran Ova wrote:
The grandmother is {wise, dead}. wrote: Here's what I meant: I'm enjoying hesitantly and timorously pushing the boundaries on the binary because I want to. Makeup is the latest step in that, and because QuizBowl is largely the entirety of my social life, SCT was a big step for me. I was nervous about it, and my defence mechanism was to be as combative as possible. I find it easier to avoid feeling hurt or attacked if I'm too busy feeling angry and defensive instead. So my attitude was definitely "walking in ready to fight". It made it easier for me. I essentially did the same thing when dealing with sexual orientation matters in the Middle East. Hope that clarifies things!

Having said that,
Sima Guang Hater wrote:What exactly are you accomplishing by doing this at the University of Waterloo, a liberal institution of higher learning, represented in parliament by a Liberal of Indian Descent, surrounded by quizbowlers who almost universally support the rights of LGBT people?
These are bad, BAD things to say, and you should not say them. If you'd like to know about my experiences, feel free to reach out. But do NOT presume to know what someone's life is like based on their MP and educational institution.
Not that you need my personal approval, but this is a good post!
I concur with Rob. Stop being a dick, folks.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:45 pm
by xarlev
The grandmother is {wise, dead}. wrote:
Sima Guang Hater wrote:What exactly are you accomplishing by doing this at the University of Waterloo, a liberal institution of higher learning, represented in parliament by a Liberal of Indian Descent, surrounded by quizbowlers who almost universally support the rights of LGBT people?
These are bad, BAD things to say, and you should not say them. If you'd like to know about my experiences, feel free to reach out. But do NOT presume to know what someone's life is like based on their MP and educational institution.
This.
There are homophobes in every space, even "liberal" universities, and QuizBowl certainly has its share of them. And especially, a place's governmental representative being not awful about an issue doesn't mean all the people from the place aren't awful. It's just ignorant to assume that we as a society, even just our universities, have moved past homophobia.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:48 pm
by naturalistic phallacy
Perturbed Secretary Bird wrote:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: Based on my observations of human social behavior and gender relations, women are more likely to be disinclined to sticking around a space full of smelly, unkempt men than men are. Speculating as to what those reasons are is beyond my scope.
Dude, we are calling you sexist because you are making essentialist statements about women (and fat people!). Please stop doing this. This type of behavior is why women dislike quizbowl.
Sima Guang Hater wrote: If you're turning away members because of your appearance or behavior, that's a problem.
Wow, you might be onto something with this behavior thing. Please let women speak for themselves about what drives us away from quizbowl.

P.S. Eliza, I love and support what you are doing.
I endorse this and Eliza's previous posts 100%.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:03 am
by Rococo A Go Go
The grandmother is {wise, dead}. wrote:So I only skimmed this thread, but as far as I can tell, this is the only thing that needs a response.
Sima Guang Hater wrote:It's stuff like this that cheapens the entire message to the point of irrelevance. No one's consciousness is being raised and no one's mind is being changed by taking this kind of attitude, nor is it actually going to get a rise out of the kind of people who need their feathers ruffled.

If wearing nail polish and lipstick is part of your gender identity, you're obviously free to express it how you choose. But being nonconformist for no good reason (and subsequently conflating laziness or unprofessionalism with making a statement) is frankly part of the problem.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I was in a sour mood when I posted that, and really just wanted to be as confrontational as possible. I did not mean the bolded part.
The grandmother is {wise, dead}. wrote:I wore lipstick and nail polish to SCT this year with the explicit intention of making narrow-minded people uncomfortable.
Here's what I meant: I'm enjoying hesitantly and timorously pushing the boundaries on the binary because I want to. Makeup is the latest step in that, and because QuizBowl is largely the entirety of my social life, SCT was a big step for me. I was nervous about it, and my defence mechanism was to be as combative as possible. I find it easier to avoid feeling hurt or attacked if I'm too busy feeling angry and defensive instead. So my attitude was definitely "walking in ready to fight". It made it easier for me. I essentially did the same thing when dealing with sexual orientation matters in the Middle East. Hope that clarifies things!

Having said that,
Sima Guang Hater wrote:What exactly are you accomplishing by doing this at the University of Waterloo, a liberal institution of higher learning, represented in parliament by a Liberal of Indian Descent, surrounded by quizbowlers who almost universally support the rights of LGBT people?
These are bad, BAD things to say, and you should not say them. If you'd like to know about my experiences, feel free to reach out. But do NOT presume to know what someone's life is like based on their MP and educational institution.
This is a good post. For my sake and yours, I hope quizbowl can be a community that always welcomes people whose gender expression doesn’t fit into outdated norms. And really, even if you wanted to be provocative on purpose, there’s nothing harmful in that. Sometimes people deserve a nice shock to make sure they aren’t being assholes, regardless of who their MP is.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:37 am
by Mahria
I can’t speak for every woman in quiz bowl. I certainly can’t speak for the women who have decided quiz bowl is not for them. But I can say that the tone of this thread has made me very very uncomfortable.

I think most people would agree that personal grooming is important for many reasons, but stating that in an incredibly offensive and confrontational way or making irrelevant suggestions about players’ diets and exercise habits doesn’t do anyone any favors.

I suspect that consistent civility and respect for other members of the community would do far more to attract and keep women in the game than any cosmetic change to the players.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:42 am
by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
In response to various people criticizing my post as seeming to aim more at personal aesthetic than general professional presentation - it was indeed something of a scattershot, a bit afield of the initial thrust of this thread towards presentability (particularly on the comment related to dietary intake), and it was not wise to aim so broad with the post. This being said, I will happily defend the general merits of any of the points that I made, and do think that their widespread adoption could be helpful to the game as a whole - though again it's certainly an aside. JinAh's post has eloquently expressed more eloquently than I could the essence of my reasoning as to why I think doing things in that list could have a positive impact, and probably at attracting more men as well as women.

I remain somewhat puzzled by the interpretation of my off-the-cuff list as some sort of sexist screed. At least from my perspective, it was almost entirely aimed at male members of the community, given that I personally haven't seen any quizbowl-playing women with bad facial hair or highly questionable apparel choices (the latter especially being perhaps in no small part related to JinAh's important point about "men can get away with it"). I find even more bizarre the singling out of the comment about sucrose intake as being aimed at women, as if the authors of such comments are asserting that women habitually drink more sugar than men. Maybe this is related to stereotypes about preferences in alcoholic beverages - I certainly can't be sure, since I'm not the author of those comments - but at best that seems like a deliberately uncharitable reading.

After some thought, I have concluded that I can only attribute my puzzlement about the meaning of my own remarks to my own lack of education. Admittedly, my knowledge of topics such as gender studies and politics, sociology, psychology, intersectionality, etc. is entirely amateur and, while am certainly highly interested in these subjects, I have not taken any formal classes in them. I thus invite people to openly 'splain to me as to why I am a sexist Neanderthal with Bad Ideas (as opposed to simply asserting such).

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:51 am
by Cheynem
I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I found it a bit weird that you linked the grooming stuff (and then dietary habits) with "improving the game's gender gap." I charitably interpreted your comment to mean that both men and women find unkempt slobbiness bad, but then you kind of doubled down and said:
Based on my observations of human social behavior and gender relations, women are more likely to be disinclined to sticking around a space full of smelly, unkempt men than men are.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:53 am
by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Boystown, the neighborhood I lived in in Chicago, is uncontroversially a "gay neighborhood," so much so that the sociology book "There Goes the Gayborhood" talks about it. There's nothing bizarre about referring to it that way, and I'm glad to be argued with on actual merit, but if your style is to instead get super offended over me saying I lived in a gay neighborhood and then drag up a ridiculous picture I posted on Facebook to try and fail to shame me, which nobody was talking about here, then I refuse to engage with you seriously.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:54 am
by Sima Guang Hater
The grandmother is {wise, dead}. wrote:
Sima Guang Hater wrote:What exactly are you accomplishing by doing this at the University of Waterloo, a liberal institution of higher learning, represented in parliament by a Liberal of Indian Descent, surrounded by quizbowlers who almost universally support the rights of LGBT people?
These are bad, BAD things to say, and you should not say them. If you'd like to know about my experiences, feel free to reach out. But do NOT presume to know what someone's life is like based on their MP and educational institution.
You are completely correct.

I want to offer an unqualified apology for the statement you quoted above; it ignores your experiences and suffering in a way that was very insensitive. I'm sorry for that, and I hope that you (and everyone else) can find acceptance, kindness, and inclusion in this activity which we all love so much. I've learned a lot from your post (and the posts of other people here), and I hope I can continue to do so.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:54 am
by Lo, a momentary rabbit-stage
I think there’s a fine line with “having some care about your appearance is a good guideline” and actual real rules / codes about what acceptable dress / hair / etc is, especially when those rules do sometimes leave out people who either don’t (or can’t, because not everyone has the same hair type) want to have an undercut with a fade.

As I’ve said in the other appearance threads, cleanliness is really the only thing we should be suggesting (and even then, be careful of how “cleanliness” is constructed around certain hairstyles), saying shit like “if ur balding shave it off!!!” or “your hair should always be faded!!!” is just...a lot, not everyone wants to, or can, look like a marine.

Re: Quizbowl men, get a haircut

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:05 am
by eliza.grames
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:At least from my perspective, it was almost entirely aimed at male members of the community, given that I personally haven't seen any quizbowl-playing women with bad facial hair or highly questionable apparel choicessuch).
I didn't actually know where to start with you, so I quoted a random part of your post. Any part of them will do, really, since they're all fungible, sexist bullshit. Multiple people** have personally DMed me to agree that you are a sexist piece of shit and should stop giving your bad opinions on the forums. Not only have you slut-shamed and fat-shamed women, you've suggested that female involvement in quiz bowl is entirely based on being attracted to male participants. I'm gonna go ahead and guess you didn't see me show up to staff HSNCT 2017 literally covered in bird shit, having not slept, and having just dumped about 48+ bags of spiders into data bags. I'm gonna go ahead and warrant a guess that no one finds that sexy. Female quizbowlers turn up because we love the game, not because you've recently showered and worked out.

P.S. **Will I give names?" Of course not, because I don't suck! ..okay I suck a little bit, but not like this. I may add that they're not all female, so like, everyone agrees you suck.