Postseason poll

Elaborate on the merits of specific tournaments or have general theoretical discussion here.
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Postseason poll

Post by 1.82 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:00 am

Once again (this time for the last time this year), it's time for a poll. This is the announcement of the postseason poll for collegiate teams.

Please do not post ballots in the thread. Do not vote for high school teams. You can vote for B teams. Ballots must contain 25 teams. E-mail them to me at nch@umd.edu by April 30.

The results of the midseason poll are below, along with each team's performance at ICT (Division I) and ACF Nationals. Note that team composition was not necessarily the same for all teams at both national championships and vote accordingly.

1. Yale Bulldogs: 1st at ICT, 3rd at ACF Nationals
2. California Golden Bears: 2nd at ICT, T-5th at ACF Nationals
3. Pennsylvania Quakers: T-4th at ICT, 2nd at ACF Nationals
4. Chicago Maroons: 3rd at ICT, 1st at ACF Nationals
5. Columbia Lions: T-4th at ICT, 4th at ACF Nationals
6. Cambridge Light Blues: T-5th at ACF Nationals
6. Ohio State Buckeyes: 7th at ICT, T-5th at ACF Nationals
8. Northwestern Wildcats: 25th at ICT, 11th at ACF Nationals
9. Minnesota Golden Gophers: 15th at ICT, 8th at ACF Nationals
10. Chicago Maroons B: 21st at ICT, T-9th at ACF Nationals
11. California Golden Bears B: T-8th at ICT, T-9th at ACF Nationals
12. Missouri Tigers: T-19th at ICT, T-14th at ACF Nationals
13. McGill Redmen: T-11th at ICT, 18th at ACF Nationals
14. Michigan Wolverines: T-4th at ICT, T-14th at ACF Nationals
15. Oklahoma Sooners: 13th at ICT, 19th at ACF Nationals
16. Stanford Cardinal: T-16th at ICT
17. Duke Blue Devils: 26th at ICT, 21st at ACF Nationals
18. Virginia Cavaliers: T-16th at ICT, 25th at ACF Nationals
19. Washington (Mo.) Bears: T-8th at ICT, T-25th at ACF Nationals
20. Toronto Varsity Blues: 18th at ICT, T-29th at ACF Nationals
21. Michigan State Spartans: 14th at ICT, 28th at ACF Nationals
22. Oxford Dark Blues: 13th at ACF Nationals
23. Maryland Terrapins: T-8th at ICT, 12th at ACF Nationals
24. Johns Hopkins Blue Jays: T-14th at ACF Nationals
25. Florida Gators: T-19th at ICT, T-14th at ACF Nationals
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Fuddle Duddle » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:51 am

Just looking at raw data, Florida, Maryland, JHU, and Michigan should move up significantly.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by vinteuil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:09 pm

Agree with Jakob. Also voters should keep in mind how WUSTL got shafted by their ACF prelims bracket.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by heterodyne » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:11 pm

It is worth recalling that Chicago B did not play a full team at ICT, so I would advise taking their ACF finish as indicative.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Cheynem » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:20 pm

So at the risk of summarizing the obvious, i see the top 5 in some of this order:

Yale (1st at ICT, 3rd at Nats, was somewhat shorthanded on Sunday playoffs at Nats)
Berkeley (2nd at ICT, tied for 5th at Nats)
Chicago (3rd at ICT, 1st at Nats, did win ICT DII but I don't think matters for purposes of the A team discussion)
Penn (tied for 4th at ICT, 2nd at Nats)
Columbia (tied for 4th at ICT, 4th at Nats)

Cambridge was tied for 5th at Nats and didn't play ICT.
Ohio State was tied for 5th at Nats. They were 7th at ICT (but decisively so) and were some unfortunate losses/tiebreaker quirks from being at least 6th, possibly higher.

I think Yale and Chicago have to go 1-2 in some order. After that, I would guess some order of Berkeley, Penn, Columbia, then Cambridge and OSU. You'd have to be pretty persuasive to convince me that's not the top 7, although I could maaaaybe see Michigan.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by cornfused » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:34 pm

heterodyne wrote:It is worth recalling that Chicago B did not play a full team at ICT, so I would advise taking their ACF finish as indicative.
I'd advise voters to look at both ICT and ACF... but to both of the things Chicago B's "split squad" did at ICT. Second bracket at Div I and the Div II title ain't half bad.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Benin Rebirth Party » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:37 pm

cornfused wrote: I'd advise voters to look at both ICT and ACF.
Shooting yourself in the foot, eh
vinteuil wrote:Agree with Jakob. Also voters should keep in mind how WUSTL got shafted by their ACF prelims bracket.
MSU got shafted at ACF too.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:48 pm

I'm pretty set on this part of my ballot:

1. Yale (don't think this is a contest)
2. Chicago (most improved top team as well)
3. Penn
4. Columbia (lower average finish than Berkeley, but I think the magnitude of their superiority at ACF is higher than Berkeley's at ICT)
5. Berkeley A
6. Cambridge
7. OSU
8. Minnesota (willing to discount the poor ICT performance, they had a great top bracket performance at ACF)
9. Michigan (despite above, I rate NAQT and ACF formats equally - this probably isn't true for everyone)
10. Berkeley B (top bracket at both Nationals, and ahead of Maryland and Chicago B, who also pulled this off)

As for the rest, interested to hear discussion.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by The Abydos Helicopter » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:22 pm

I appear to be mostly writing pro-British posts at the moment, but Oxford should 1) come higher on your ballots now then they did before and 2) be noted as only missing out on the top bracket by (iirc) 20 points in their tiebreaker game.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by jasongg17 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:24 pm

The Abydos Helicopter wrote:I appear to be mostly writing pro-British posts at the moment, but Oxford should 1) come higher on your ballots now then they did before and 2) be noted as only missing out on the top bracket by (iirc) 20 points in their tiebreaker game.
It's also worth noting that their top of second bracket finish is the best result a British team consisting entirely of British players has ever achieved.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Banned Tiny Toon Adventures Episode » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:53 pm

jasongg17 wrote:
The Abydos Helicopter wrote:I appear to be mostly writing pro-British posts at the moment, but Oxford should 1) come higher on your ballots now then they did before and 2) be noted as only missing out on the top bracket by (iirc) 20 points in their tiebreaker game.
It's also worth noting that their top of second bracket finish is the best result a British team consisting entirely of British players has ever achieved.
who on 2016/2017 oxford wasn't british?
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by vinteuil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:55 pm

Banned Tiny Toon Adventures Episode wrote:
jasongg17 wrote:
The Abydos Helicopter wrote:I appear to be mostly writing pro-British posts at the moment, but Oxford should 1) come higher on your ballots now then they did before and 2) be noted as only missing out on the top bracket by (iirc) 20 points in their tiebreaker game.
It's also worth noting that their top of second bracket finish is the best result a British team consisting entirely of British players has ever achieved.
who on 2016/2017 oxford wasn't british?
Spence?
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Banned Tiny Toon Adventures Episode » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:57 pm

vinteuil wrote:
Banned Tiny Toon Adventures Episode wrote:
jasongg17 wrote:
The Abydos Helicopter wrote:I appear to be mostly writing pro-British posts at the moment, but Oxford should 1) come higher on your ballots now then they did before and 2) be noted as only missing out on the top bracket by (iirc) 20 points in their tiebreaker game.
It's also worth noting that their top of second bracket finish is the best result a British team consisting entirely of British players has ever achieved.
who on 2016/2017 oxford wasn't british?
Spence?
oops somehow forgot about the existence of a very good/relevant person
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by a bird » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:33 pm

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: 8. Minnesota (willing to discount the poor ICT performance, they had a great top bracket performance at ACF)
9. Michigan (despite above, I rate NAQT and ACF formats equally - this probably isn't true for everyone)
10. Berkeley B (top bracket at both Nationals, and ahead of Maryland and Chicago B, who also pulled this off)

As for the rest, interested to hear discussion.
For what it's worth I think Berkeley B might have a slight edge over Minnesota (based on playing both teams at both Nationals). While I think Berkeley B deserves the spot you gave them (or a higher one), I'm really confused by this:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: Berkeley B (top bracket at both Nationals, and ahead of Maryland and Chicago B, who also pulled this off)
Chicago B didn't finish in the top bracket of ICT (half the team played DII), and Berkeley B actually finished T-8 with WUStL and Maryland at ICT. At Nationals Chicago B and Berkeley B finished T-9. Did you mean that their average finish was higher at both tournaments?

As for the rest of the top 25, I would add Oxford to Jakob's list of teams that should move up a few spots.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:03 pm

a bird wrote:
For what it's worth I think Berkeley B might have a slight edge over Minnesota (based on playing both teams at both Nationals). While I think Berkeley B deserves the spot you gave them (or a higher one), I'm really confused by this:
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: Berkeley B (top bracket at both Nationals, and ahead of Maryland and Chicago B, who also pulled this off)
Chicago B didn't finish in the top bracket of ICT (half the team played DII), and Berkeley B actually finished T-8 with WUStL and Maryland at ICT. At Nationals Chicago B and Berkeley B finished T-9. Did you mean that their average finish was higher at both tournaments?

As for the rest of the top 25, I would add Oxford to Jakob's list of teams that should move up a few spots.
Minnesota got more tossups than Berkeley B did in the playoffs of ACF Nationals and had a higher placement, had a higher PPB at both ACF Nationals and ICT, and scored a victory over the 2nd place team (Penn) at Nats, though Penn did also admittedly drop to a few weaker teams at ICT as well.

What I mean to say about Berkeley B is that I would place them ahead of both Maryland and Chicago B for the following reasons:
1) Berkeley B had an incomplete roster at ICT due to Rahul playing DII (I think Pranav and Jonchee are similar skill levels) but placed higher than Maryland
2) Berkeley B also placed higher than Maryland at ACF Nationals
3) Berkeley B had more PPG than Chicago B at ACF Nationals, the only tournament where both teams played at full strength
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by bradleykirksey » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:04 pm

At the risk of becoming "the person who only goes onto the forums to hype up UF"...

UF should probably be considered closer to their finish at Nats (14th) than ICT (19th) because they were full strength at Nats, not ICT. John L just really isn't the same type of player that Tracy is.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by a bird » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:55 pm

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: As for the rest, interested to hear discussion.
Since Will and I mostly agree about the top 10, I'm going to list some thoughts about the rest of the top 25. I would break the remaining ranked teams into the following three categories.

Teams that "proved themselves" or exceeded expectations at nationals (no particular order)
  • Michigan (T-4 at ICT, comparable to the below teams at Nats)
  • Oxford (top of 2nd bracket at Nats)
  • Florida (near the top of 2nd bracket at Nats where they had their full team)
  • Johns Hopkins (also near the top of 2nd bracket oat Nats)
  • WUStL (did quite well at ICT, but finished in the 3rd bracket of Nats partially due to bracketing issues)
  • Maryland
Teams that did about as expected (no particular order):
  • Missouri
  • Oklahoma
    I don't really know how to rank these two teams but they both had impressive seasons, with mirror image finishes at nationals (OU did better at ICT while Missouri did better at ACF).
  • Chicago B (top bracket at Nats where they had their full team)
  • Stanford (their 16th place finish at ICT matches their poll placement, but voters should remember the Cambridge and Oxford were absent from ICT)
  • McGill (top bracket at ICT, and finished 18th at Nats)
  • Michigan State (slightly outperformed their ranking at ICT but finished below at ACF)
  • Toronto (could be put here due to their ICT performance or in the last category)
Teams that did well in the regular season, but performed below their midseason ranking at nationals (no particular order):
  • Northwestern (performed well at Nationals, but poorly at ICT; this team still deserves to be ranked well, but not as highly as they were in the midseason poll)
  • Duke (3rd bracket at ICT and middle of 2nd bracket at Nats)
  • UVA (3rd bracket at Nats and middle of 2nd bracket at ICT)
  • Toronto (comparable finish to UVA but a few places lower)
Other teams worth considering (no particular order):
  • Illinois (finished 20th at Nats, above Duke)
  • Amherst (made second bracket at Nats over UVA to finish 22nd)
  • NYU (made top bracket at ICT over Stanford, but finished at 31st Nats)
  • Harvard A (finished in the top 25 at both nationals, upsetting Hopkins, Duke (in an ICT tiebreaker), and Florida along the way)
Let me know if I've overlooked anything. This isn't meant to be a definitive list, but a starting point for discussion. I'll apologize in advance if anyone feels slighted by my description/omission of their performance.
Last edited by a bird on Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Illinois Admin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:05 pm

Illinois beat Duke, Chicago C, and Florida at Nats for whatever thats worth and also came quite close to beating McGill, Oxford, and reasonably close to Missouri. We also shit out pants against Minnesota B and got absolutely pimp slapped by Oklahoma and Michigan so you know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by Benin Rebirth Party » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:24 pm

Jay from Toronto is only eligible for NAQT, and being a NAQT specialist really helped them at ICT. Patrick's disappearance also hurt their performances at both tournaments. I suggest voters do not consider Patrick in their polls, since he did not play a single tournament with them this season.
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Re: Postseason poll

Post by 1.82 » Thu May 03, 2018 5:27 am

Voting has concluded. The 12 voters were Charles Hang, Andrew Hart, Justin Hawkins, Leo Law, John Marvin, Jakob Myers, Jacob Reed, Graham Reid, Alex Shaw, Kai Smith, Adam Sperber, and Chandler West. Thanks to each of them for taking the time to contribute.

1. Yale Bulldogs (11): 299, highest #1, lowest #2 (previous: #1)
2. Chicago Maroons (1): 289, highest #1, lowest #2 (previous: #4)
3. Pennsylvania Quakers: 275, highest #3, lowest #4 (previous: #3)
4. California Golden Bears: 260, highest #3, lowest #6 (previous: #2)
5. Columbia Lions: 256, highest #4, lowest #5 (previous: #5)
6. Ohio State Buckeyes: 235, highest #6, lowest #7 (previous: #6)
7. Cambridge Light Blues: 234, highest #5, lowest #7 (previous: #6)
8. California Golden Bears B: 209, highest #8, lowest #10 (previous: #11)
9. Minnesota Golden Gophers: 196, highest #8, lowest #13 (previous: #9)
10. Michigan Wolverines: 187, highest #8, lowest #14 (previous: #14)
11. Chicago Maroons B: 186, highest #9, lowest #13 (previous: #10)
12. Maryland Terrapins: 172, highest #10, lowest #14 (previous: #23)
13. Northwestern Wildcats: 132, highest #11, lowest #20 (previous: #8)
14. Oxford Dark Blues: 130, highest #12, lowest #19 (previous: #22)
15. Missouri Tigers: 127, highest #11, lowest #19 (previous: #12)
16. McGill Redmen: 125, highest #12, lowest #20 (previous: #13)
17. Oklahoma Sooners: 115, highest #13, lowest #19 (previous: #15)
18. Florida Gators: 99, highest #13, lowest #21 (previous: #25)
19. Johns Hopkins Blue Jays: 98, highest #14, lowest #20 (previous: #24)
20. Washington (Mo.) Bears: 84, highest #17, lowest #22 (previous: #19)
21. Stanford Cardinal: 55, highest #18, received 11 votes (previous: #16)
22. Michigan State Spartans: 44, highest #19, received 11 votes (previous: #21)
23. Virginia Cavaliers: 34, highest #20, lowest #25 (previous: #18)
24. Duke Blue Devils: 24, highest #21, received 10 votes (previous: #17)
25. Toronto Varsity Blues: 17, highest #23, received 8 votes (previous: #20)

Also receiving votes:

26. New York Violets: 7, highest #22, received 3 votes (previous: received votes)
26. Illinois Fighting Illini: 7, highest #20, received 2 votes (previous: received votes)
28. MIT Engineers: 2, highest #24, received 1 vote (previous: received votes)
29. Amherst Mammoths: 1, highest #25, received 1 vote (previous: unranked)
29. Harvard Crimson: 1, highest #25, received 1 vote (previous: received votes)
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