ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

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ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by rahulkeyal » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:06 pm

Please discuss specific questions or any errata within this thread.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Arabidopsis failiana » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:34 pm

I feel like "ox" definitely should have been accepted for the cow tossup. I'm fairly sure that when I read the Odyssey, it referred to "ox-eyed Hera."
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Steeve Ho You Fat » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:38 pm

The Boeing 737 MAX isn't a Dreamliner, and none of them have crashed in Malaysia.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by gettysburg11 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:40 pm

The Georgia Tech A/UCSD A packet mentioned "LA's Walt Disney Concert Hall," then the Cornell A/Penn State B/Wesleyan packet asked for what city the concert hall was in later on.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Muriel Axon » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:46 pm

The question on St. Thomas Aquinas should at least prompt on Thomas, for the same reason that questions on Leonardo da Vinci tend to accept Leonardo.

Not a gameplay issue, but alleles don't have to become fixed through drift -- selection is often also important.

Also not a gameplay issue, but I don't think it's really true that the ontological argument is more popular than the cosmological or teleological arguments. Given the rise of the Kalam cosmological argument, this seems a bit doubtful, but also: What does this even mean?

Teams in my room were confused that altos were described as 'uncommon.' Perhaps this was meant as 'uncommon in the particular context described in the question,' but if so, it wasn't clear.

I thought there were a fair number of questions in this set that were really good, but unlike errata, I didn't keep track of these! Be assured that I did like this set.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by connor.mayers » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:50 pm

Unless my moderator read the question incorrectly, the math question on "four" claimed that four was the degree of a quadratic.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by CPiGuy » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:52 pm

Describing tornadoes as "structures" is kind of questionable.

There were like 3 questions between tossups and bonus parts to which the answer was "water". I think two of them were in the same round, too.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Muriel Axon » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:56 pm

CPiGuy wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:52 pm
There were like 3 questions between tossups and bonus parts to which the answer was "water". I think two of them were in the same round, too.
I don't remember what these questions were, but this is not necessarily a problem! (Here, I deleted the extremely banal sentence "Water is ubiquitous in human culture.") Two in the same packet would ideally be separated -- but I remember a MUT packet where the answer line "Mexico" came up four times, in separate categories, and I don't think it actually tripped anyone up.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by ganman0305 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:22 am

Steeve Ho You Fat wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:38 pm
The Boeing 737 MAX isn't a Dreamliner, and none of them have crashed in Malaysia.
Oh shoot, I conflated details from the MH 370 disappearance with the recent Boeing Crash in Indonesia! That's an editing mistake on my fault and I apologize.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by cftsoc3 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:05 am

I seem to recall the sonata giveaway being exceptionally confusing, though perhaps I just didn't parse it correctly.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by hexagonman » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:10 am

I felt that the Hanukkah tossup was way too easy with the lead-in. Anyone who went to Hebrew School at any point could first-line it.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by ykevu » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:46 am

connor.mayers wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:50 pm
Unless my moderator read the question incorrectly, the math question on "four" claimed that four was the degree of a quadratic.
The question said "quartic," so probably a misspeak.
CPiGuy wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:52 pm
Describing tornadoes as "structures" is kind of questionable.
That's my bad; I should've found a more suitable pronoun.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Karansebes Schnapps Vendor » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:00 am

I felt the ouroboros clue in the aromatic tossup could have done with a disclaimer that the answer was not "cyclic" - this was a neg in my room despite seeming like a pretty natural answer.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Evan Lynch » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:26 am

Karansebes Schnapps Vendor wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:00 am
I felt the ouroboros clue in the aromatic tossup could have done with a disclaimer that the answer was not "cyclic" - this was a neg in my room despite seeming like a pretty natural answer.
I'm pretty sure that was already disclaimed in the previous sentence when the conditions described by Hückel's rule were outlined (planarity, being cyclic and 4n+2 pi electrons).

On that point, double-checking the text of the question, "Molecules with this property have 4n + 2 electrons" should definitely include at least "pi" and possibly also "in a conjugated system", depending on how painfully exact you want to be. Apologies for not spotting this on my readthrough last week.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Milhouse » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:27 am

The Krebs cycle tossup probably should have accepted _tricarboxylic acid cycle_ or _TCA cycle_.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by The Abydos Helicopter » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:15 am

Arabidopsis failiana wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:34 pm
I feel like "ox" definitely should have been accepted for the cow tossup. I'm fairly sure that when I read the Odyssey, it referred to "ox-eyed Hera."
Both Autenreith and Cunliffe,the standard Homeric lexica translate it as Ox-eyed
Last edited by The Abydos Helicopter on Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by csa2125 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:53 am

cftsoc3 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:05 am
I seem to recall the sonata giveaway being exceptionally confusing, though perhaps I just didn't parse it correctly.
For 10 points, identify this genre of instrumental music for a solo instrument without orchestral backing, contrasted with the sung cantata.
ANSWER: sonatas
Believe this was trying to communicate "it's not a concerto," and then that it's "named similarly to cantata." The contrast with cantata has been clued much earlier in a previous question, but it seemed that the knowing the naming similarities or some rudimentary knowledge of Romance language words for "to sing" and "to sound" wasn't worth rewarding that heavily.

I apologize if it was confusing. I could have alternately had a "fill in the blank" giveaway on "Moonlight sonata" or something along those lines.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Perturbed Secretary Bird » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:37 am

I was reading some rounds since the site was short-staffed, and I felt very, very uncomfortable saying the word "coon" in the vaudeville bonus. I don't think this word should be used in questions at all, much like I wouldn't use the n-word.

If I remember correctly, the Native American lit bonus was coded as "world lit." Why wasn't it US lit?
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Aaron's Rod » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:32 am

Cabrini Green is not in Bronzeville. Probably I'd say it's on the Near North Side; the Latin School of Chicago coach said it was in Old Town.

The bonus clue that mentioned the connection between the words "Adonis" and "Adonai" was super cool!
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by csa2125 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:48 am

Muriel Axon wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:46 pm
Also not a gameplay issue, but I don't think it's really true that the ontological argument is more popular than the cosmological or teleological arguments. Given the rise of the Kalam cosmological argument, this seems a bit doubtful, but also: What does this even mean?
Given Kalam is popular now, that may no longer be true. This was largely done to say "it's a counterpart to / in the same vein as cosmological and teleological arguments," but we should have fact-checked this better or found a better way to accomplish the same task in that clue.
Teams in my room were confused that altos were described as 'uncommon.' Perhaps this was meant as 'uncommon in the particular context described in the question,' but if so, it wasn't clear.
[10] Pergolesi’s Stabat Mater is scored for soprano and a soloist with this uncommon vocal range. The same Italian term describes instruments sized between a tenor and soprano, such as a popular E-flat saxophone.
ANSWER: alto
It's maybe more accurate to same the term is uncommon (now since "contralto" is used for the same thing). Don't have stats on how common vocal ranges are right now, but was intended to signal "this isn't the easy part yet," though that may not have worked out.


I thought there were a fair number of questions in this set that were really good, but unlike errata, I didn't keep track of these! Be assured that I did like this set.
[/quote]
Thanks!
gettysburg11 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:40 pm
The Georgia Tech A/UCSD A packet mentioned "LA's Walt Disney Concert Hall," then the Cornell A/Penn State B/Wesleyan packet asked for what city the concert hall was in later on.
We had separate visual and auditory editors. Definitely need to be more careful about repeats in the future.
hexagonman wrote:
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I felt that the Hanukkah tossup was way too easy with the lead-in. Anyone who went to Hebrew School at any point could first-line it.
Given Judaism is still something of a minority religion in the US, this doesn't seem like a huge problem, aside from the fact that a good share of quiz bowlers are Jewish or have Jewish friends and such. I similarly expect devout Catholics to first-line questions on the pope.
Even at Fall, it does seem that there should be a good clue or two at the start to differentiate between "serious" and "very serious" students of the religion, though, which doesn't always happen.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by t-bar » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:53 am

I thought this set was very good, though I noticed two errata that I don't think have been mentioned yet:

Bonus 16.3 in packet C is written in a confusing way:
Packet C wrote: [10] Description acceptable. The horses in The Derby at Epsom have this specific, unusual trait, which was only discovered upon comparison with the photographic studies of Eadweard Muybridge (“Edward my-bridge”).
ANSWER: the horses are running in a way that’s anatomically impossible [or the horses run with all four legs off the ground at once; accept equivalents like the horses are positioned in a way that real horses do not move]
Presumably, this question is getting at the fact that the horses in the painting mentioned are running with their legs both off the ground and outstretched. As Muybridge's photographs showed, both of these conditions obtain at some point in a galloping horse's gait, just not at the same time. So I'm somewhat confused by the directive to accept "all four legs off the ground at once," since that's not actually "unusual." I see what the question writer was going for, but I think the question failed to clearly articulate the distinction that it tried to make.

Bonus 9.2 in packet E is incorrect:
Packet E wrote: [10] In addition reactions, this rule states that when an acid is added to an asymmetrically substituted carbon, the proton is attached to the more heavily substituted carbon.
ANSWER: Markovnikov’s rule
The proton attaches to the less substituted carbon.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by caroline » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:07 pm

Perturbed Secretary Bird wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:37 am
If I remember correctly, the Native American lit bonus was coded as "world lit." Why wasn't it US lit?
It was coded as “other lit” (hence the World/Other Literature tag), which is meant to cover literature questions which mix the other subcategories (British, European, American, World) instead of sticking to just one*. The bonus fell under this categorization because it mixed American lit (Silko, Erdrich) and world (the Kiss of the Spider Woman clue). Native American lit is definitely US lit! :)

*We weren’t super consistent about this, partly due to editors splitting categories, so some bonuses didn’t follow this - for example, the Garcia Lorca/Neruda/Ginsberg bonus was tagged as European Lit.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:19 pm

Arabidopsis failiana wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:34 pm
I feel like "ox" definitely should have been accepted for the cow tossup. I'm fairly sure that when I read the Odyssey, it referred to "ox-eyed Hera."
This was the subject of a result-changing protest in a match at the HS mirror at U Chicago. Initially negged response of 'ox' was ruled correct by the protest committee.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:00 pm

t-bar wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:53 am
I thought this set was very good, though I noticed two errata that I don't think have been mentioned yet:

Bonus 16.3 in packet C is written in a confusing way:
Packet C wrote: [10] Description acceptable. The horses in The Derby at Epsom have this specific, unusual trait, which was only discovered upon comparison with the photographic studies of Eadweard Muybridge (“Edward my-bridge”).
ANSWER: the horses are running in a way that’s anatomically impossible [or the horses run with all four legs off the ground at once; accept equivalents like the horses are positioned in a way that real horses do not move]
Presumably, this question is getting at the fact that the horses in the painting mentioned are running with their legs both off the ground and outstretched. As Muybridge's photographs showed, both of these conditions obtain at some point in a galloping horse's gait, just not at the same time. So I'm somewhat confused by the directive to accept "all four legs off the ground at once," since that's not actually "unusual." I see what the question writer was going for, but I think the question failed to clearly articulate the distinction that it tried to make.
FWIW, the respondent in the room where I read this bonus part was able to articulate a description that I thought was good enough, as he communicated it had to do with the feet all being off the ground.
Possibly related; I accepted, after prompting on just "gambling," a player's round 11 TU answer of "gambling on E-sports," given the answer line directed me to accept specific answers so long as they mention both betting and a sport, and I know for a fact E-sports betting is something you can do at certain web sites accessible in the US.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by A Very Long Math Tossup » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:15 pm

Perturbed Secretary Bird wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:37 am
I was reading some rounds since the site was short-staffed, and I felt very, very uncomfortable saying the word "coon" in the vaudeville bonus. I don't think this word should be used in questions at all, much like I wouldn't use the n-word.

If I remember correctly, the Native American lit bonus was coded as "world lit." Why wasn't it US lit?
Hard agree with both of these.

Even though "coon song" is the proper historical term for the genre, there's no getting around the fact that "coon" is a racial slur when applied to people. Now, I have no problem with slurs being quoted in scholarly or artistic works on the history of race in America, but nobody should be forced to say them if they'd rather not. Furthermore, as a mod in a quizbowl tournament who hasn't read the packet beforehand, the fact that a racial slur is coming out of your mouth can catch you completely off guard. All this discomfort could have been avoided if the bonus had simply mentioned the song's use in minstrel shows.

I was surprised by the classification of the Native American lit bonus as well, and I think the impact of this sort of subdistributing is often overlooked. Categories like "American Literature" are socially constructed, and their boundaries are determined by the questions we choose to put in them. Labeling a question as "World Lit" is a performative utterance which affects the American-ness of the author. Native Americans are already marginalized in US history—let's try not to exclude them from the discourse all together.

Also, while we're on the subject of this bonus, the consensus among staffers at our site is that Ceremony was a particularly brutal hard part and wouldn't have been out of place at Regionals. We could be wrong, though.

EDIT: I just saw Caroline's post; I forgot about the Puig clue. I suppose it's forgivable in this case, but it's worth considering whether we'd classify a bonus the same way if it was 90% Nathaniel Hawthorne plot clues with a non-American title thrown in for accessibility. Curiously, the Camus bonus in packet C that mentioned Algerian author Kamel Daoud was still classified as "European Lit."
Last edited by A Very Long Math Tossup on Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by ganman0305 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:20 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:00 pm
t-bar wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:53 am
I thought this set was very good, though I noticed two errata that I don't think have been mentioned yet:

FWIW, the respondent in the room where I read this bonus part was able to articulate a description that I thought was good enough, as he communicated it had to do with the feet all being off the ground.
Possibly related; I accepted, after prompting on just "gambling," a player's round 11 TU answer of "gambling on E-sports," given the answer line directed me to accept specific answers so long as they mention both betting and a sport, and I know for a fact E-sports betting is something you can do at certain web sites accessible in the US.
Yup, that's absolutely perfect! I didn't actually think of including e-sports into the mix, so that's incredibly interesting.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by CaseyB » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:28 pm

From Packet L, Tossup 8
ANSWER: Mario Vargas Llosa (“YO-suh”) [or Jorge Mario Pedro Vargas Llosa ]

From Packet O, Bonus 16
ANSWER: Federico García Lorca [prompt on García ]

Similarly, I recall that in the past I've been prompted if I said "Márquez" for Gabriel García Márquez. Why are these answer lines (seemingly) inconsistent? Which answers should be accepted here and which answers should be prompted?
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Cheynem » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:02 pm

I thought the category was "World Literature/Other," i.e. literature that crosses a variety of topics. World literature can be hard to completely fill out at a tournament like Fall, so sometimes classifying things in this category (especially since they can be called "Other" without, er, othering the authors) is necessary, even if they could otherwise go in other categories.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:05 pm

I was surprised by the classification of the Native American lit bonus as well, and I think the impact of this sort of subdistributing is often overlooked. Categories like "American Literature" are socially constructed, and their boundaries are determined by the questions we choose to put in them. Labeling a question as "World Lit" is a performative utterance which affects the American-ness of the author. Native Americans are already marginalized in US history—let's try not to exclude them from the discourse all together.

...

EDIT: I just saw Caroline's post; I forgot about the Puig clue. I suppose it's forgivable in this case, but it's worth considering whether we'd classify a bonus the same way if it was 90% Nathaniel Hawthorne plot clues with a non-American title thrown in for accessibility. Curiously, the Camus bonus in packet C that mentioned Algerian author Kamel Daoud was still classified as "European Lit."
No serious people in this community are arguing that Native American literature is not a valid part of the "American Literature" canon and I think it's questionable of any of us to impute some sort of bad faith to editors when they classify a bonus with a mix of content in the "World/Other Literature" category. In particular, at low difficulties, filling the quotas for "World/Other Literature" with accessible material that isn't too much of a plug-and-chug/repeat from past tournaments of similar difficulty is hard.

As people are pointing out here, the geography boundary gets a bit arbitrary at times, particularly when literary traditions easily overflow into one another. Picking at this doesn't seem to be particularly productive. You don't see this because NAQT classifications aren't shown in the packets, but tons of NAQT bonuses that are called "American Literature" have a bonus part that'd fit comfortably into British or European lit, etc. As long as we're hitting a good mix of topics, is this really a problem?
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Borrowing 100,000 Arrows » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:38 pm

Cheynem wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:02 pm
I thought the category was "World Literature/Other," i.e. literature that crosses a variety of topics. World literature can be hard to completely fill out at a tournament like Fall, so sometimes classifying things in this category (especially since they can be called "Other" without, er, othering the authors) is necessary, even if they could otherwise go in other categories.
Yeah, echoing what Mike said, when I was writing Terrapin last year, I put a lot of commonwealth literature in the "World/Other" category (especially in crunch time when we needed questions to finish the set.) This doesn't mean that the author thinks that Native American writers aren't American.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by rahulkeyal » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:44 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:19 pm
Arabidopsis failiana wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:34 pm
I feel like "ox" definitely should have been accepted for the cow tossup. I'm fairly sure that when I read the Odyssey, it referred to "ox-eyed Hera."
This was the subject of a result-changing protest in a match at the HS mirror at U Chicago. Initially negged response of 'ox' was ruled correct by the protest committee.
Yes, that answer is definitely correct and should have been in the answerline (my apologies!)
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:05 pm
I was surprised by the classification of the Native American lit bonus as well, and I think the impact of this sort of subdistributing is often overlooked. Categories like "American Literature" are socially constructed, and their boundaries are determined by the questions we choose to put in them. Labeling a question as "World Lit" is a performative utterance which affects the American-ness of the author. Native Americans are already marginalized in US history—let's try not to exclude them from the discourse all together.

...

EDIT: I just saw Caroline's post; I forgot about the Puig clue. I suppose it's forgivable in this case, but it's worth considering whether we'd classify a bonus the same way if it was 90% Nathaniel Hawthorne plot clues with a non-American title thrown in for accessibility. Curiously, the Camus bonus in packet C that mentioned Algerian author Kamel Daoud was still classified as "European Lit."
No serious people in this community are arguing that Native American literature is not a valid part of the "American Literature" canon and I think it's questionable of any of us to impute some sort of bad faith to editors when they classify a bonus with a mix of content in the "World/Other Literature" category. In particular, at low difficulties, filling the quotas for "World/Other Literature" with accessible material that isn't too much of a plug-and-chug/repeat from past tournaments of similar difficulty is hard.

As people are pointing out here, the geography boundary gets a bit arbitrary at times, particularly when literary traditions easily overflow into one another. Picking at this doesn't seem to be particularly productive. You don't see this because NAQT classifications aren't shown in the packets, but tons of NAQT bonuses that are called "American Literature" have a bonus part that'd fit comfortably into British or European lit, etc. As long as we're hitting a good mix of topics, is this really a problem?
I think Will hits the nail on the head here. So long as the overall distribution of topics is appropriate and representation is considered, I think that the labeling of a particular question doesn't quite need to be scrutinized. I made it clear from the outset that half of "World/Other" literature should be strictly World, while the "Other" questions would be a mix of any topics (with individual packets containing a question from each of World and "Other"). Caroline did an excellent job making sure the world literature was well distributed and represented a diverse group of writers from a variety of regions.
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I was reading some rounds since the site was short-staffed, and I felt very, very uncomfortable saying the word "coon" in the vaudeville bonus. I don't think this word should be used in questions at all, much like I wouldn't use the n-word.
I sincerely apologize for this and should have realized that word was problematic. The question will be edited prior to the final version being uploaded to avoid the use of slurs.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by halle » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:05 pm

t-bar wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:53 am

Presumably, this question is getting at the fact that the horses in the painting mentioned are running with their legs both off the ground and outstretched. As Muybridge's photographs showed, both of these conditions obtain at some point in a galloping horse's gait, just not at the same time. So I'm somewhat confused by the directive to accept "all four legs off the ground at once," since that's not actually "unusual." I see what the question writer was going for, but I think the question failed to clearly articulate the distinction that it tried to make.
Since this was a bit of a tricky answerline, I wanted to be generous with the descriptions that were acceptable. I think that if a player knows that the answer has to do with the horses' legs being positioned inaccurately, and they say something to the effect of "the horses have all their legs in the air at once," that they have demonstrated enough knowledge to get the points--after all, the question is testing knowledge of the painting and it's art historical context, not the anatomical structure of horses, and it seems cruel to penalize a player for correctly giving a general description of the relevant feature of the painting, even if the description leaves something to be desired when it comes to specificity.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by caroline » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:28 pm

A Very Long Math Tossup wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:15 pm
I was surprised by the classification of the Native American lit bonus as well, and I think the impact of this sort of subdistributing is often overlooked. Categories like "American Literature" are socially constructed, and their boundaries are determined by the questions we choose to put in them. Labeling a question as "World Lit" is a performative utterance which affects the American-ness of the author. Native Americans are already marginalized in US history—let's try not to exclude them from the discourse all together.

...

EDIT: I just saw Caroline's post; I forgot about the Puig clue. I suppose it's forgivable in this case, but it's worth considering whether we'd classify a bonus the same way if it was 90% Nathaniel Hawthorne plot clues with a non-American title thrown in for accessibility.
Yes, if it was 90% Nathaniel Hawthorne plot clues with a non-American title thrown in for accessibility then I would classify it as "World/Other Literature." I understand the category tag is a bit confusing—I was confused by it myself initially!—but "World Literature" and "Other Literature" are two distinct subcategories which are then combined into one tag. World is 0.5/0.5 and Other is 0.5/0.5, thus making up 1/1 together, which is how they end up as one tag (that, and as mentioned in this thread, difficulties filling out the world lit distribution at this level), but they function separately. Examples similar to the Nathaniel Hawthorne one you provided as a hypothetical are the "Renascence"/cummings/Heaney bonus and Little Red Riding Hood/Carter/Handmaid's Tale bonus, which I tagged as "Other Literature" because they mixed subcategories.
A Very Long Math Tossup wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:15 pm
Also, while we're on the subject of this bonus, the consensus among staffers at our site is that Ceremony was a particularly brutal hard part and wouldn't have been out of place at Regionals. We could be wrong, though.
I agree with you (although I wouldn't classify it as a hard part at Regionals in its current form, it's definitely very difficult!). While 98% of the time I do not consider "it's written by a minority writer" (in this case, a Native American female writer) as a good excuse to include something too difficult, I decided to let it get through this 2% of the time. Also, real-world importance is IMO not a good excuse at this level, but it's still worth considering the novel has real-world importance.
A Very Long Math Tossup wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:15 pm
Curiously, the Camus bonus in packet C that mentioned Algerian author Kamel Daoud was still classified as "European Lit."
Yeah, this is similar to the Garcia Lorca/Neruda/Ginsberg bonus I mentioned above. Justin was responsible for British/European, and I don't think he knew bonuses like this were for the misc/other category; I wasn't entirely clear on it myself (i.e. whether he could mix subcategories in his questions), so I didn't remark on it. In hindsight, I probably should've clarified this, but I didn't and don't consider it a huge deal, as I hardly think the takeaway from this would be "I/Justin secretly think Kamel Daoud is European."

What Mike, Will, and Rahul have said on this is correct. And yes, Native American authors are American. I appreciate the issue being brought up nonetheless, though, as I definitely agree such classifications are important and if done incorrectly, can be othering for American POC writers.

Thanks to UGA A for submitting the bonus, by the way—if you're reading this, you were my favorite literature submission. :)
CaseyB wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:28 pm
From Packet L, Tossup 8
ANSWER: Mario Vargas Llosa (“YO-suh”) [or Jorge Mario Pedro Vargas Llosa ]

From Packet O, Bonus 16
ANSWER: Federico García Lorca [prompt on García ]

Similarly, I recall that in the past I've been prompted if I said "Márquez" for Gabriel García Márquez. Why are these answer lines (seemingly) inconsistent? Which answers should be accepted here and which answers should be prompted?
My apologies for this! Yeah, I should've clarified this in the answerline—I wasn't sure myself but somehow forgot to ask. I'd probably prompt on a partial last name (?), at least at Fall level, but would ask first.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Milhouse » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:53 pm

caroline wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:28 pm
CaseyB wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:28 pm
From Packet L, Tossup 8
ANSWER: Mario Vargas Llosa (“YO-suh”) [or Jorge Mario Pedro Vargas Llosa ]

From Packet O, Bonus 16
ANSWER: Federico García Lorca [prompt on García ]

Similarly, I recall that in the past I've been prompted if I said "Márquez" for Gabriel García Márquez. Why are these answer lines (seemingly) inconsistent? Which answers should be accepted here and which answers should be prompted?
My apologies for this! Yeah, I should've clarified this in the answerline—I wasn't sure myself but somehow forgot to ask. I'd probably prompt on a partial last name (?), at least at Fall level, but would ask first.
My apologies if what you mean here is that you should prompt on just Llosa (which I think is correct), but regarding Federico García Lorca my understanding based on various previous conversations is that the best practice is to accept just Lorca, regardless of whatever inconsistency that implies with other similar Spanish last names.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by rùdrâ » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:58 pm

[10] The ghee, or clarified butter, consumed by Agni is produced by these animals. As these animals are considered
sacred, Hindus do not consume their meat.
ANSWER: cows [or cattle; or bulls]
I'm all for questions on ghee and cows coming up, but this feels like a bit of a waste of a myth bonus part since it seems like it's asking if you know that dairy products come from cows, or if you know one of the few things that almost everyone is aware of when it comes to Hinduism.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by caroline » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:59 pm

Milhouse wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:53 pm
caroline wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:28 pm
CaseyB wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:28 pm
From Packet L, Tossup 8
ANSWER: Mario Vargas Llosa (“YO-suh”) [or Jorge Mario Pedro Vargas Llosa ]

From Packet O, Bonus 16
ANSWER: Federico García Lorca [prompt on García ]

Similarly, I recall that in the past I've been prompted if I said "Márquez" for Gabriel García Márquez. Why are these answer lines (seemingly) inconsistent? Which answers should be accepted here and which answers should be prompted?
My apologies for this! Yeah, I should've clarified this in the answerline—I wasn't sure myself but somehow forgot to ask. I'd probably prompt on a partial last name (?), at least at Fall level, but would ask first.
My apologies if what you mean here is that you should prompt on just Llosa (which I think is correct), but regarding Federico García Lorca my understanding based on various previous conversations is that the best practice is to accept just Lorca, regardless of whatever inconsistency that implies with other similar Spanish last names.
Yeah, I meant Vargas Llosa, sorry for not making that clear—I didn't write the García Lorca part (the other lit editor did), so I wasn't paying much attention to it, though I should have. Thanks for letting me know!
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by justinfrench1728 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:09 pm

A Very Long Math Tossup wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:15 pm
Curiously, the Camus bonus in packet C that mentioned Algerian author Kamel Daoud was still classified as "European Lit."
caroline wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:28 pm
Yeah, this is similar to the Garcia Lorca/Neruda/Ginsberg bonus I mentioned above. Justin was responsible for British/European, and I don't think he knew bonuses like this were for the misc/other category; I wasn't entirely clear on it myself (i.e. whether he could mix subcategories in his questions), so I didn't remark on it. In hindsight, I probably should've clarified this, but I didn't and don't consider it a huge deal, as I hardly think the takeaway from this would be "I/Justin secretly think Kamel Daoud is European."
I think it is necessary to distinguish "European literature" from "literature written by Europeans." Because the The Mersault Investigation directly responds to The Stranger, it is as much within the canon of French literature as it is Algerian literature.

Also, even if Daoud was only tangentially connected to "European literature," that shouldn't be an issue either. There is no reason the distribution of "European literature" needs to be restricted to authors that identify or are identified as European. In fact, since the "World literature" distribution is so low, I would argue that the other literature sub-categories should ask about "world" authors when it is thematic and difficulty-appropriate.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by rahulkeyal » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:49 pm

rùdrâ wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:58 pm
[10] The ghee, or clarified butter, consumed by Agni is produced by these animals. As these animals are considered
sacred, Hindus do not consume their meat.
ANSWER: cows [or cattle; or bulls]
I'm all for questions on ghee and cows coming up, but this feels like a bit of a waste of a myth bonus part since it seems like it's asking if you know that dairy products come from cows, or if you know one of the few things that almost everyone is aware of when it comes to Hinduism.
I completely see where you're coming from. Originally, the bonus part looked like this:
[10] Agni is the Hindu god of this substance. In Greek mythology, Prometheus steals this substance from the gods.
When assembling the final packets, we realized this bonus part was in the same packet as a tossup on fire (in video games) and a bonus part on the Reichstag fire. I decided this one should be changed (as it required the least work) to avoid an answerline being repeated too many times in a single packet. This may have not been the ideal replacement, but I think it served its purpose. Ironically, we didn't catch the repeat of water mentioned up thread, but we did do our best to avoid these sorts of feng shui issues across the set where applicable.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Perturbed Secretary Bird » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:01 pm

Just wanted to say that I didn't assume bad faith on the part of the editors re: the Native American bonus, and I apologize if my tone seemed brusque!
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by ansonberns » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:03 am

rahulkeyal wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:49 pm
we did do our best to avoid these sorts of feng shui issues across the set where applicable.
This is very minor, but if we're pointing out bad feng shui Packet M has a tossup on Korea, a bonus part on North Korea, and a bonus part on South Korea.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by reindeer » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:20 pm

csa2125 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:48 am
hexagonman wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:10 am
I felt that the Hanukkah tossup was way too easy with the lead-in. Anyone who went to Hebrew School at any point could first-line it.
Given Judaism is still something of a minority religion in the US, this doesn't seem like a huge problem, aside from the fact that a good share of quiz bowlers are Jewish or have Jewish friends and such. I similarly expect devout Catholics to first-line questions on the pope.
Even at Fall, it does seem that there should be a good clue or two at the start to differentiate between "serious" and "very serious" students of the religion, though, which doesn't always happen.
I actually don't think you need to have gone to Hebrew school; anyone who has ever had the rules of dreidel explained to them (which happens widely to people with Jewish families or friends, in secular public schools, etc) could recognize it. I think it's fine to write clues that are more accessible to people with particular life experiences, but it's also possible to overdo it and this clue is definitely too easy.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by hexagonman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:14 pm

reindeer wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:20 pm
csa2125 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:48 am
hexagonman wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:10 am
I felt that the Hanukkah tossup was way too easy with the lead-in. Anyone who went to Hebrew School at any point could first-line it.
Given Judaism is still something of a minority religion in the US, this doesn't seem like a huge problem, aside from the fact that a good share of quiz bowlers are Jewish or have Jewish friends and such. I similarly expect devout Catholics to first-line questions on the pope.
Even at Fall, it does seem that there should be a good clue or two at the start to differentiate between "serious" and "very serious" students of the religion, though, which doesn't always happen.
I actually don't think you need to have gone to Hebrew school; anyone who has ever had the rules of dreidel explained to them (which happens widely to people with Jewish families or friends, in secular public schools, etc) could recognize it. I think it's fine to write clues that are more accessible to people with particular life experiences, but it's also possible to overdo it and this clue is definitely too easy.
With this and other Jewish Holidays, I think a better lead-in would involve something from the scripture, as cultural traditions are much more prevalent knowledge to the Reform community (which makes up a fair bit of American Jewish community). Between the Talmud and other collections of Jewish scholarly work, this should not be too hard to find to make the toss-up a bit harder. (not meant to be rude)
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:19 pm

reindeer wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:20 pm
csa2125 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:48 am
hexagonman wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:10 am
I felt that the Hanukkah tossup was way too easy with the lead-in. Anyone who went to Hebrew School at any point could first-line it.
Given Judaism is still something of a minority religion in the US, this doesn't seem like a huge problem, aside from the fact that a good share of quiz bowlers are Jewish or have Jewish friends and such. I similarly expect devout Catholics to first-line questions on the pope.
Even at Fall, it does seem that there should be a good clue or two at the start to differentiate between "serious" and "very serious" students of the religion, though, which doesn't always happen.
I actually don't think you need to have gone to Hebrew school; anyone who has ever had the rules of dreidel explained to them (which happens widely to people with Jewish families or friends, in secular public schools, etc) could recognize it. I think it's fine to write clues that are more accessible to people with particular life experiences, but it's also possible to overdo it and this clue is definitely too easy.
With the caveat that the area where I grew up is definitely disproportionately Jewish, I agree with this statement - dreidel was explained to us in (public) elementary school when we learned about Hannukah.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by It's Drew » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:41 pm

I played on a team who submitted a packet that wasn't used (Purdue B), and heard some of my clues used nearly word-for-word in other packets, often very early in tossups I would not normally be able to get since they'd normally be well outside my categories. This strikes me as something that shouldn't happen.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by 100% Clean Comedian Dan Nainan » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:07 am

It's Drew wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:41 pm
I played on a team who submitted a packet that wasn't used (Purdue B), and heard some of my clues used nearly word-for-word in other packets, often very early in tossups I would not normally be able to get since they'd normally be well outside my categories. This strikes me as something that shouldn't happen.
Repeats seem pretty unavoidable in a packet sub tournament, especially one as large as ACF Fall. At regionals last year I think every lit question I submitted was a repeat with other content in the set (which got me a good amount of points).
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Mahavishnu » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:14 pm

hexagonman wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:14 pm
reindeer wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:20 pm
csa2125 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:48 am
hexagonman wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:10 am
I felt that the Hanukkah tossup was way too easy with the lead-in. Anyone who went to Hebrew School at any point could first-line it.
Given Judaism is still something of a minority religion in the US, this doesn't seem like a huge problem, aside from the fact that a good share of quiz bowlers are Jewish or have Jewish friends and such. I similarly expect devout Catholics to first-line questions on the pope.
Even at Fall, it does seem that there should be a good clue or two at the start to differentiate between "serious" and "very serious" students of the religion, though, which doesn't always happen.
I actually don't think you need to have gone to Hebrew school; anyone who has ever had the rules of dreidel explained to them (which happens widely to people with Jewish families or friends, in secular public schools, etc) could recognize it. I think it's fine to write clues that are more accessible to people with particular life experiences, but it's also possible to overdo it and this clue is definitely too easy.
With this and other Jewish Holidays, I think a better lead-in would involve something from the scripture, as cultural traditions are much more prevalent knowledge to the Reform community (which makes up a fair bit of American Jewish community). Between the Talmud and other collections of Jewish scholarly work, this should not be too hard to find to make the toss-up a bit harder. (not meant to be rude)
No worries. My initial assumption regarding the lead-in was that, by failing to use Hebrew words or reveal otherwise obviously Jewish characteristics, only individuals who had specifically interacted with (and preferably, used) a dreidel would be able to buzz for their points. This did occur, but I seem to have underestimated how many non-Jewish people would be familiar with the given fact, as well as how easy the fact would be for basically every somewhat ardent Jew. If a different clue popped out to me that was adequately interesting and specific, while still masking the fact that it was a Jewish holiday, I certainly would have placed in front of the current lead-in. Nevertheless, you are correct that it was too easy, and I should have, as you said, clued some aspect of related scripture, or some other relevant aspect of the observance. Sorry for any buzzer races that may have occurred correspondingly.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by ganman0305 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:53 pm

Aaron's Rod wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:32 am
Cabrini Green is not in Bronzeville. Probably I'd say it's on the Near North Side; the Latin School of Chicago coach said it was in Old Town.

The bonus clue that mentioned the connection between the words "Adonis" and "Adonai" was super cool!
That was a mistake on my part for not indicating that the Robert Taylor Homes are in Bronzeville, and then Cabrini Green is elsewhere!
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by ganman0305 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:55 pm

100% Clean Comedian Dan Nainan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:07 am
It's Drew wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:41 pm
I played on a team who submitted a packet that wasn't used (Purdue B), and heard some of my clues used nearly word-for-word in other packets, often very early in tossups I would not normally be able to get since they'd normally be well outside my categories. This strikes me as something that shouldn't happen.
Repeats seem pretty unavoidable in a packet sub tournament, especially one as large as ACF Fall. At regionals last year I think every lit question I submitted was a repeat with other content in the set (which got me a good amount of points).
Hey Drew and Chandler, just as an example of this from this year's packet, we had 3-4 different submissions from different teams all on Fire Emblem, which was synthesized into one question. Similarly, there were like 3-4 submissions all about Frankenstein, which turned into just one final question. With the canon of Fall, its hard to not have at least some level of layover, and as Chandler said, it does happen at Regionals as well.
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Victor Prieto » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:38 pm

ganman0305 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:55 pm
Hey Drew and Chandler, just as an example of this from this year's packet, we had 3-4 different submissions from different teams all on Fire Emblem, which was synthesized into one question. Similarly, there were like 3-4 submissions all about Frankenstein, which turned into just one final question. With the canon of Fall, its hard to not have at least some level of layover, and as Chandler said, it does happen at Regionals as well.
Question: can you clarify what you mean when you wrote "synthesized into one question" and "turned into just one final question?" Do you mean a sentence from a Frankenstein question in Purdue B's submission was combined with sentences picked from Frankenstein questions in other submissions to build a final (pardon the pun) Frankenstein question?
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Re: ACF Fall 2019 Specific Question Discussion and Errata

Post by Mahavishnu » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:01 pm

Victor Prieto wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:38 pm
ganman0305 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:55 pm
Hey Drew and Chandler, just as an example of this from this year's packet, we had 3-4 different submissions from different teams all on Fire Emblem, which was synthesized into one question. Similarly, there were like 3-4 submissions all about Frankenstein, which turned into just one final question. With the canon of Fall, its hard to not have at least some level of layover, and as Chandler said, it does happen at Regionals as well.
Question: can you clarify what you mean when you wrote "synthesized into one question" and "turned into just one final question?" Do you mean a sentence from a Frankenstein question in Purdue B's submission was combined with sentences picked from Frankenstein questions in other submissions to build a final (pardon the pun) Frankenstein question?
I'm not Ganon, but to provide my own relevant input, assuming a certain topic will see use in the set, multiple submissions on that same topic will inevitably be "boiled down" to a single question, regardless of the number of original submissions. As mentioned above, both the packet submission model and the relatively smaller amount of askable material at this difficulty level will all but ensure that some team will hear questions on material similar to that which they submitted. Certainly, no plurality of questions from differing submissions will be combined Frankenstein-esque (unless I suppose, that the submissions of the teams in question are planned to be grouped together into the same packet, although from my experience, the editing process typically wouldn't work like that anyways). While whatever final edited question certainly may (unintentionally) overlap with clues provided in other submissions, this is often unavoidable, and it certainly wouldn't occur by choice (or by the method you described).
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