2008 TJIAT (10/18/08) at TJHSST

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:19 pm

Questions/comments.

This sounds like an awesome tournament and we really can't wait to go. We shall be there bright and early after the almost-2½-hour drive.

How many guaranteed matches are there? I feel like i'm confused on the numbers, with somewhere seeing 7 plus however many are left for consolations, and now on the "recent" schedule at least... 10 matches? Plus more? Clarification is all i need.

I would have no problem volunteering to moderate, and i would most likely enjoy doing so... will there be a scorekeeper with me, if so?

btressler · Post by **btressler** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:54 pm

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:I would have no problem volunteering to moderate, and i would most likely enjoy doing so... will there be a scorekeeper with me, if so?

I would also volunteer to moderate, but in past years there was TJ reluctance to allow coaches to be readers. Is that still the case?

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:11 pm

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Questions/comments.

This sounds like an awesome tournament and we really can't wait to go. We shall be there bright and early after the almost-2½-hour drive.

How many guaranteed matches are there? I feel like i'm confused on the numbers, with somewhere seeing 7 plus however many are left for consolations, and now on the "recent" schedule at least... 10 matches? Plus more? Clarification is all i need.

I would have no problem volunteering to moderate, and i would most likely enjoy doing so... will there be a scorekeeper with me, if so?

There will be 10 guaranteed matches, five in the initial round-robin and five either in the playoff brackets or in the consolation rounds.

Also, we do hope to have scorekeepers for every room, but I'm not making any promises.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:14 pm

Bad Boy Bill wrote:
Caesar Rodney HS wrote:I would have no problem volunteering to moderate, and i would most likely enjoy doing so... will there be a scorekeeper with me, if so?
I would also volunteer to moderate, but in past years there was TJ reluctance to allow coaches to be readers. Is that still the case?

There shouldn't be a problem with coaches being allowed to read. What we'll probably end up doing is to arrange it such that a team doesn't read for his own team, on the grounds that I don't want to hear accusations of "OMG TEH RAEDER IS BIASED". I don't have any problems with it, but I have a feeling others will.

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:23 pm

Yeah, i mean i've read for my kids before at tournaments (hard to avoid at the Del. NAQT tourney), but certainly i don't mind being placed where i won't encounter them. Seems fair. I just have one team anyway, and they say they play better when i'm not watching them so...

Anyway, about the "guaranteed matches." I guess i'm just confused by this...

closesesame wrote:The 48 teams are bracketed into 6 brackets of 8 teams each. After these 7 rounds of round-robin play, one of two things happens depending on a team's record...

And this...

hwhite wrote: 9:15 AM: First round starts
11:45 AM: End of round 5, start of lunch
12:45 PM: Return from lunch, rebracketing announcement
1:00 PM: Start of round 6
3:30 PM: End of round 10, awards, playoff announcements, etc.
3:45 PM: Start of round 11
6:15 PM: Worst-case scenario for end of Finals.

Dunno, maybe i'm just missing something. Are there going to be byes... or something? Why does one say 7 rounds, then rebracketting... and the other say 10 rounds, then playoffs/consolations?

Blackboard Monitor Vimes · Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:29 pm

Frater Taciturnus wrote:
hwhite wrote: depending on what happens, including but lot limited to teams showing up and the number of moderators (which is what we've had problems with in previous years, *coughcough*).
if number of moderators is going to be an issue, I could possibly ride up from Richmond for the day. If a team coming from, say, Richmond, gives me a ride, they could count that as a moderator discount.

If that's directed at us, George, we're scrambling to assemble transportation for our own players. Sorry.

Frater Taciturnus · Post by **Frater Taciturnus** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:31 pm

MLWGS-Gir wrote:
Frater Taciturnus wrote:
hwhite wrote: depending on what happens, including but lot limited to teams showing up and the number of moderators (which is what we've had problems with in previous years, *coughcough*).
if number of moderators is going to be an issue, I could possibly ride up from Richmond for the day. If a team coming from, say, Richmond, gives me a ride, they could count that as a moderator discount.
If that's directed at us, George, we're scrambling to assemble transportation for our own players. Sorry.

nah, just in general.

closesesame · Post by **closesesame** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:16 pm

The teams that make the playoffs (the top 12) will have 13 guaranteed rounds. Everyone plays 7 rounds in the preliminary round-robin, and then the top 12 play 5 playoff rounds and 1 game for placement.

The consolation teams will play more than 7. According to Harry, if consolation teams will be guaranteed 5 additional rounds, then I guess consolation teams are guaranteed 12 rounds.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:03 pm

ITT Harry White makes a fool of himself.

Anyway, post fixed, but at least I got the ending time right.

Robbie Ram · Post by **Robbie Ram** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:37 pm

hwhite wrote:Also, three teams have dropped, so if you wish to sign up, you can now.

It would have been nice if someone at TJ (*ahem*, Harry) had let me know that teams had dropped, since we tried to register *twice* now *and* left a post (with email address) on this thread saying "please let us know and/or save a spot for us if one comes open". One (vacation) day after 3 teams dropped, we're locked out of the field *again*??? This is frustrating, to say the least.

Our full team will probably show up at TJ on Saturday morning just to haunt the TD and heckle the other teams. I'm serious. (Well, maybe not about the heckling. Maybe.)

Angry Babies in Love · Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:22 pm

hwhite wrote:
8-9 AM: Registration
9-9:15 AM: Rules Meeting
9:15 AM: First round starts
12:45 AM: End of round 7, start of lunch
1:45 PM: Return from lunch, rebracketing announcement
2:00 PM: Start of round 8
4:30 PM: End of round 12, awards, playoff announcements, etc.
4:45 PM: Start of round 13
6:15 PM: Worst-case scenario for end of Finals.

Out of curiosity, what exactly are the chances of said "worst-case scenario" actually being the actual end time?

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:49 pm

We're one of the teams that dropped, but I'm willing to moderate/scorekeep if you'd like, especially if it'll help increase the field size. Since I see Harry has posted here but not answered my e-mail, I'll presume that he hasn't had a chance to check e-mail yet. I'll be somewhat out of town Thursday and Friday, so I'll need to hear by about 8PM or so via e-mail or board if you'd like me to assist. After that, phone me if you'd like me to assist. I'll be sending another e-mail shortly with my phone number in the event this is your best option.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:10 pm

rmgeokid wrote:Out of curiosity, what exactly are the chances of said "worst-case scenario" actually being the actual end time?

For the "worst case scenario" to occur, one championship bracket would have to have an advantaged final in which the disadvantaged team wins the first game. Its within the realm of possibility, but then again, 6:15 isn't that bad of an end-time for 15 rounds of Quizbowl, is it not?

Howard wrote:We're one of the teams that dropped, but I'm willing to moderate/scorekeep if you'd like, especially if it'll help increase the field size. Since I see Harry has posted here but not answered my e-mail, I'll presume that he hasn't had a chance to check e-mail yet. I'll be somewhat out of town Thursday and Friday, so I'll need to hear by about 8PM or so via e-mail or board if you'd like me to assist. After that, phone me if you'd like me to assist. I'll be sending another e-mail shortly with my phone number in the event this is your best option.

I don't think I got your e-mail (Greyson may have, I didn't), but we would love to have your help.

Robbie Ram wrote:
It would have been nice if someone at TJ (*ahem*, Harry) had let me know that teams had dropped, since we tried to register *twice* now *and* left a post (with email address) on this thread saying "please let us know and/or save a spot for us if one comes open". One (vacation) day after 3 teams dropped, we're locked out of the field *again*??? This is frustrating, to say the least.

Our full team will probably show up at TJ on Saturday morning just to haunt the TD and heckle the other teams. I'm serious. (Well, maybe not about the heckling. Maybe.)

Unfortunately, there were more than three teams who had requested slots. However, I did send you an e-mail about you potentially getting a slot.

Angry Babies in Love · Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:18 pm

hwhite wrote:
rmgeokid wrote:Out of curiosity, what exactly are the chances of said "worst-case scenario" actually being the actual end time?
For the "worst case scenario" to occur, one championship bracket would have to have an advantaged final in which the disadvantaged team wins the first game. Its within the realm of possibility, but then again, 6:15 isn't that bad of an end-time for 15 rounds of Quizbowl, is it not?

Touché. From what I remember from last year's tournaments, they were run relatively efficiently. I was just curious because our homecoming is that night.

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:07 pm

hwhite wrote:I don't think I got your e-mail (Greyson may have, I didn't), but we would love to have your help.

Great. I'll be there.

closesesame · Post by **closesesame** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:56 pm

Robbie Ram wrote: It would have been nice if someone at TJ (*ahem*, Harry) had let me know that teams had dropped, since we tried to register *twice* now *and* left a post (with email address) on this thread saying "please let us know and/or save a spot for us if one comes open". One (vacation) day after 3 teams dropped, we're locked out of the field *again*??? This is frustrating, to say the least.

Our full team will probably show up at TJ on Saturday morning just to haunt the TD and heckle the other teams. I'm serious. (Well, maybe not about the heckling. Maybe.)

Actually, Mr. Campana, I sent you an e-mail yesterday at 9:16 PM with a link to our registration page that notified you that a spot had opened up. At that point I think we were down to 45 or 46 teams...

Robbie Ram · Post by **Robbie Ram** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:53 am

closesesame wrote:
Robbie Ram wrote: It would have been nice if someone at TJ (*ahem*, Harry) had let me know that teams had dropped, since we tried to register *twice* now *and* left a post (with email address) on this thread saying "please let us know and/or save a spot for us if one comes open". One (vacation) day after 3 teams dropped, we're locked out of the field *again*??? This is frustrating, to say the least.

Our full team will probably show up at TJ on Saturday morning just to haunt the TD and heckle the other teams. I'm serious. (Well, maybe not about the heckling. Maybe.)
Actually, Mr. Campana, I sent you an e-mail yesterday at 9:16 PM with a link to our registration page that notified you that a spot had opened up. At that point I think we were down to 45 or 46 teams...

I never got that email, Naren... but thanks for trying. It's all good, though... Harry emailed me last night and said a spot had opened up, so we did now officially register and are "in". We would have hated to miss one of the best tournaments of the year, especially since it's practically next door!

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:06 pm

One team has dropped out, so there is one more slot open. Also, I should probably note that after today, dropping out will incur a $30 late fee.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:17 pm

How do you expect to enforce that?

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:17 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:How do you expect to enforce that?

Other tournaments have had late drop-out fees as well.

Anyway, there are now 2 open slots.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:24 pm

That still doesn't answer my question.

Mechanical Beasts · Post by **Mechanical Beasts** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:24 pm

hwhite wrote:Other tournaments have had late drop-out fees as well.

Anyway, there are now 2 open slots.

How did they enforce them? The FBI?

closesesame · Post by **closesesame** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:29 pm

We pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:34 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:That still doesn't answer my question.

Not speaking for TJ, but it's pretty simple, really. Until you pay, you cannot register for any more tournaments at the school in question. If they don't come back and don't pay, that's okay, too.

Sorry about the e-mails, Harry. Found out I left a letter out of the domain.

closesesame · Post by **closesesame** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:24 pm

Hey everyone,

If you're planning to come to our tournament to moderate (or are a coach of a team and would like to moderate), could you please e-mail our TD Harry White? I think he'd like an accurate count of the number of moderators we've got.

aestheteboy · Post by **aestheteboy** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:37 am

Hey, I think late-fees serve ceremonial (so-to-speak) rather than any practical purpose, but I mean, it's not like there aren't nasty things that one could do in order to collect them. What exactly I have in mind, I'll leave up to your imagination.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:03 am

Well, it does help that our school is only a few miles away from the Pentagon...

In other news, I have finished the brackets, and as of lunchtime, NAQT hadn't finished writing the questions yet. Yay. And it's also 1:00 AM.

And as a reminder, registration begins at 8:00 AM and ends at 9:00 AM.

at your pleasure · Post by **at your pleasure** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:36 pm

How do you expect to enforce that

I would suggest excommunication from the curcit until the fee is paid.

Angry Babies in Love · Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:32 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:
How do you expect to enforce that
I would suggest excommunication from the curcit until the fee is paid.

That would work, but some schools probably wouldn't buy in, especially if they are from out of the area.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:38 pm

All right, final field update before the tournament:

Bishop Ireton High School (1)
Caesar Rodney High School (1)
Centennial High School (1)
Churchill High School (2)
Clover Hill High School (2)
Dorman High School (1)
Elizabeth Seton High School (1)
Fairfax (1)
George C. Marshall HIgh School (1)
Georgetown Day School (2)
Gonzaga (2)
J.E.B. Stuart HS (1)
James Madison High School (2)
James W. Robinson Jr. Secondary School (1)
Langley High School (2)
Maggie Walker (2)
Maret School (1)
Mercersburg Academy (1)
Paul Laurence Dunbar (1)
Richard Montgomery High School (2)
South County (1)
St. Annes - Belfield School (1)
State College High School (2)
The Calverton School (1)
W. T. Woodson High School (1)
Wakefield (1)
Walter Johnson (1)
Whitman (1)
Wilmington Charter (6)
Woodrow Wilson High School (1)
blake (2)

Total: 46 teams

So yeah, it appears that we will have to use a couple of byes and/or SCAB teams. Sorry 'bout that, but we really didn't have much of a choice. Registration begins at 8:00 AM and ends at 9:00 AM, though as usual we'd appreciate it if you could aim towards the earlier side. In addition, if you are bringing someone to moderate (and if you do, we are eternally grateful), please aim closer to 8:00, as that will make us panic less.

And sorry, but we didn't get the cafeteria, so there will probably be no N64 while you wait.

Angry Babies in Love · Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:14 pm

hwhite wrote: And sorry, but we didn't get the cafeteria, so there will probably be no N64 while you wait.

Bummer! I was looking forward to that. Oh well, there's always TJ II.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:32 pm

UPDATE: Blake beats Dorman, 345-265.

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:03 pm

hwhite wrote:UPDATE: Blake beats Dorman, 345-265.

BuzzerZen · Post by **BuzzerZen** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:16 pm

hwhite wrote:UPDATE: Blake beats Dorman, 345-265.

*ahem*

NAQTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

grashid · Post by **grashid** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:05 pm

hwhite wrote:UPDATE: Blake beats Dorman, 345-265.

Is this in the finals?

Edit: didn't see the time. Now this comment seems all the more ridiculous.

ClemsonQB · Post by **ClemsonQB** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:12 pm

Yep, they finished the tournament before 12:30.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:24 pm

UPDATE:

We are done with prelims, and the 12 teams in the championship brackets are as follows:
Charter A
State College A
Dorman
Gov A
GDS A
Whitman
Gonzaga A
WJ
Blake A
Dunbar
State College B
Charter B

Angry Babies in Love · Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:39 pm

Are stats going to be on the internet? If so, when can they be expected?

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:47 pm

Charter A cleared the field and are in the finals.
State College A holds a 1-game advantage in the Semifinal against Dorman
GDS will play in the 3rd place game.
Gov A and Dunbar are in the 5th place game.
WJ and Gonzaga are playing for 7th place.
Blake and Whitman will play for 9th.
And in the Battle of the B Teams, Charter B and State College B will round out the top 12.

Also, teams leaving early are annoying. This means you Blake.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:48 pm

rmgeokid wrote:Are stats going to be on the internet? If so, when can they be expected?

They will be up at some point, hopefully sometime within the next day or so.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:24 pm

FINAL RANKINGS: (UPDATED)

1. Charter A
2. Dorman
3. GDS
4. State College A
5. Dunbar
6. Gov A
7. Gonzaga A
8. WJ
9. Whitman
10. Blake A
11. State College B
12. Charter B

To be updated. I doubt we'll be doing this format again in the near future.

Nine-Tenths Ideas · Post by **Nine-Tenths Ideas** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:32 pm

hwhite wrote:Charter A cleared the field and are in the finals.
State College A holds a 1-game advantage in the Semifinal against Dorman
GDS will play in the 3rd place game.
Gov A and Dunbar are in the 5th place game.
WJ and Gonzaga are playing for 7th place.
Blake and Whitman will play for 9th.
And in the Battle of the B Teams, Charter B and State College B will round out the top 12.

Also, teams leaving early are annoying. This means you Blake.

Dammit. Not in my hands.

BuzzerZen wrote:
hwhite wrote:UPDATE: Blake beats Dorman, 345-265.
*ahem*

NAQTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Hey... we played a pretty good game, and Dorman negged a bunch. Give us some credit instead of blaming the format.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:59 pm

UPDATE: Charter beat Dorman for 1st, GDS beat State College for 3rd.

wexs883198215 · Post by **wexs883198215** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:41 pm

Other than 4 instances where our team specifically had problems with either facing teams that had already heard the questions or that we had already heard the questions somehow, this was pretty fun.

I think the problems came from one (i hope no more than one) reader who was using the wrong rounds and randomly taking new packets as replacements after blurting out the answer before a bounceback or something and continuing on them =_="

this meant that we somehow ended up playing ACF nationals 2004 questions against GDS

closesesame · Post by **closesesame** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:52 pm

We identified the source of those problems. I don't think any other teams were affected by this problem. In any case, you certainly enjoyed that round more than an IS round (honestly, I would, too). So by our count, the top 8 qualify. This means that the following teams have earned HSNCT berths from our tournament:

Charter, Dorman, GDS, State College A, Dunbar, Gov A, Gonzaga A, and WJ

Congratulations, guys! I also want to thank all the coaches who moderated for us today, especially the Caesar Rodney coach, John Gilbert, Tressler, and Dr. Barnes. We hope that, despite the fact it took a good chunk of your Saturday, you enjoyed our tournament and felt you got the most quizbowl for your money. Also, I did not know that I could read 72 tossups in 70 minutes.

Whiter Hydra · Post by **Whiter Hydra** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:56 pm

And in addition, Charter, Dorman, GDS, and State College each received berths to the PACE NSC. Good job guys!

In other news, I just took a look at the big pile of scoresheets in front of me. Fun times ahead.

at your pleasure · Post by **at your pleasure** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:04 pm

I definitly enjoyed the tournament. It was well-run, the moderators were excellent, and I feel like it was worth it in every sense of the word. Now if only we could do somthing about a certain very annoying category that I will not name for fear of derailing the thread...

aestheteboy · Post by **aestheteboy** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:17 pm

Regarding the tournament: I guess we were done with 13 round by 6:00 or so, and TJ folks were obviously working hard, so I really don't want to criticize, but I have to say that the tournament logistics was below average. The readers we had in the prelims were finishing 15 tossups on average, and that simply should not be happening. As Evan earlier said, the tournament cap should be determined by the number of competent moderators. It's understandable but still irresponsible to compromise the tournament quality (not enough moderators) for the sake of money (more teams). Also, on four separate occasions, we had to play on patchworked packet (i.e. tossups and bonus from the end of the packets) because the readers read the wrong packet or something. Four times . . . what in the world happened? Finally, - I guess this is pretty minor - the statroom was constantly behind. No one ever posted stats. We never got to the indiv prizes because they weren't entered into the computer. We waited more than we should have for rebracketing. Still, these flaws didn't detract from my enjoyment of the tournament that much, and we did get a lot of quizbowl for our money so I was fairly satisfied.

Regarding the questions: The questions were of such quality that I was seriously thinking about promising to never play in any NAQT tournament ever again, but they don't really deserve that. It's not like they are exploitative or morally reprehensible in the way that CBI and Chip are, so I have no reason to limit my options by boycotting their tournaments entirely. In fact, if I approach it with the right mindset, NAQT becomes quite enjoyable. Playing finger excercises and lateral thinking with good teams is actually pretty fun and exciting (no sarcasm intended).

Regarding the teams: Charter is still by far the best team I've played all year. State College, GDS, Gov, etc. are certainly very good, but Charter simply exists at a different level.

Nine-Tenths Ideas · Post by **Nine-Tenths Ideas** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:23 pm

I pretty much echo what Daichi said, though I had far less problems with readers and packet confusion. It was still a very good tournament, and the questions were okay. It always a blast playing teams better than us, and I'd like to think we're improving. The no-show teams were a bit of a disappointment, but that's certainly not in TJ's hands. The readers were half and half good and somewhat difficult to understand. Obviously, we screwed up leaving early, and we apologize.

Adventure Temple Trail · Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:24 pm

My congratulations to Charter A for a victory well deserved, to the TJ staff for running an enjoyable tournament full of quizbowl, and to NAQT for really outdoing themselves in making the worst IS set in recent memory. "FIFTEEEEN"s, excessive fraud, giveaway leadins, recycled material, all of it was significantly worse than usual, presumably because

hwhite wrote:as of lunchtime, NAQT hadn't finished writing the questions yet. Yay. And it's also 1:00 AM.