GSAC XVI: December 6, 2008

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Cameron: a moderating discount sounds reasonable, since you do technically go there now. We're posting questions online this year, but talk to me Sunday if Cosby needs a paper copy. Mrs. Chappell won't be too upset about one copy... Also, more packets would be awesome. I don't know if we can quite manage enough to change the play-offs, though...we'll talk Sunday.

To everyone else: right now we're operating under the assumption that we'll have 10 rounds and have to work something out with that. However, I'll be doing my best to ensure that they are 10 good, non-edited-at-the-last-minute rounds. If we do successfully get enough good rounds to change play-off format, I'll be certain to inform everyone of that.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Field updated with TJ, RM, Clover Hill, and Freeman, bringing us to 25 teams if I can correctly add small numbers. Our cap is 48, so register soon!

Edit: Turns out I can't add. It's 25, not 27.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Meadowbrook brings our field to 27.

[wowitsquinthaha]

I'm writing questions now!!!!!!!

[Sir Thopas]

I'm writing questions now!!!!!!!

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Field updated to add King George. There have been editing concerns at several tournaments this year, so I'd like to take this opportunity to assure people that this set will get thoroughly edited.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Guy, I think the capybara would be pleased to know that he is writing questions.

[intothenegs]

Field updated to add King George. There have been editing concerns at several tournaments this year, so I'd like to take this opportunity to assure people that this set will get thoroughly edited.

Yay! Other teams from my district playing mACF!

[at your pleasure]

Would a field update be possible?

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Would a field update be possible?

Indeed. Field update in the massive post on the first page has been updated.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

I forgot if i said so in a previous e-mail or anything, but Sarah i will be more than happy to help moderate/scorekeep at MW on the 6th. So let me know if i could/should do that. See you in a couple weeks.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

I forgot if i said so in a previous e-mail or anything, but Sarah i will be more than happy to help moderate/scorekeep at MW on the 6th. So let me know if i could/should do that. See you in a couple weeks.

At this point, it looks like we will have enough staff, but I will let you know if that changes. Thanks, Mr. C. There's still some people I need to speak to given that Chris Ray has pushed the UMD mirror of T-Party to the 7th... I'll be emailing my volunteers Google Group tomorrow; if anyone out there isn't on there and would like to read, please either post here or email me at SeaAngel147 AT aol DOT com or gsacdirector AT gmail DOT com.

Edit: 800th post! Clearly I need to go outside...

[aestheteboy]

I thought we were already registered (refer to the third post in the thread). We should get a discount for super early registration.

[closesesame]

Sarah, TJ would like to add a fifth team.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Daichi, please formally register via the survey in my main post for our record-keeping purposes. Naren, probably the best way to add a 5th team is to either do the survey completely over again and we'll trash the old one, or just do it for one team and note that it's your 5th in the comments box.

[Robbie Ram]

Due to SAT testing and other student conflicts, we are down to 1 team rather than the 2 we originally planned to bring. Hopefully none of those four players will beg out at the last minute!

Sarah (or whoever else is in charge of this tournament): FYI, I submitted a new registration for a single team via the tournament registration link (along with a note stating that this is a revised registration rather than a new registration).

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

OK. Field update has been updated to show Robinson down to 1 team along with 3 new registrations, bringing us to 32 if I can add correctly.

I've told everyone that I'm bad at making schedules, but I know some people have been distressed at the possibility of a single-elim play-off, so I put some thought into it. This is what I've come up with (note that it only works if we hit our cap; contingency plans will be made around the same idea, hopefully):

Eight prelim brackets of 6
2 play-off brackets of 5, with the top team from each bracket and 2 wild cards (probably by W-L then PPB)
A single elim consolation bracket to guarantee everyone 6 games.
Cross-bracket finals in the main bracket as was done at QuAC for final placement (i.e. the top two play each other for 1st, the next two play for 3rd, and so on).

Comments? I think this seems to be the fairest thing to do with 10 rounds, but I welcome input.

[dtaylor4]

OK. Field update has been updated to show Robinson down to 1 team along with 3 new registrations, bringing us to 32 if I can add correctly.

I've told everyone that I'm bad at making schedules, but I know some people have been distressed at the possibility of a single-elim play-off, so I put some thought into it. This is what I've come up with (note that it only works if we hit our cap; contingency plans will be made around the same idea, hopefully):

Eight prelim brackets of 6
2 play-off brackets of 5, with the top team from each bracket and 2 wild cards (probably by W-L then PPB)
A single elim consolation bracket to guarantee everyone 6 games.
Cross-bracket finals in the main bracket as was done at QuAC for final placement (i.e. the top two play each other for 1st, the next two play for 3rd, and so on).

Comments? I think this seems to be the fairest thing to do with 10 rounds, but I welcome input.

Why not just do 8 of 6, then 8 of 6 again?

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

OK. Field update has been updated to show Robinson down to 1 team along with 3 new registrations, bringing us to 32 if I can add correctly.

I've told everyone that I'm bad at making schedules, but I know some people have been distressed at the possibility of a single-elim play-off, so I put some thought into it. This is what I've come up with (note that it only works if we hit our cap; contingency plans will be made around the same idea, hopefully):

Eight prelim brackets of 6
2 play-off brackets of 5, with the top team from each bracket and 2 wild cards (probably by W-L then PPB)
A single elim consolation bracket to guarantee everyone 6 games.
Cross-bracket finals in the main bracket as was done at QuAC for final placement (i.e. the top two play each other for 1st, the next two play for 3rd, and so on).

Comments? I think this seems to be the fairest thing to do with 10 rounds, but I welcome input.

Why not just do 8 of 6, then 8 of 6 again?

We'd need an 11th round for a finals packet. Unless people are okay with it being outrageously harder than everything else, we won't be able to pull that off. Also, I think I'm not fully understanding how that would work. Can you explain further?

[dtaylor4]

I think I meant 6 of 8, then 8 of 6. Also, I was unaware of your packet constraints. Given you're using 10 packets total, I can't help you there.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

I think I meant 6 of 8, then 8 of 6. Also, I was unaware of your packet constraints. Given you're using 10 packets total, I can't help you there.

Thanks for the attempt at help. Also, I think the idea of a single-elim consolation bracket works for our field because a lot of teams will want to go home. I actually need to make sure everyone is planning on returning from lunch at the end of the prelims...that may complicate things a bit.

[cvdwightw]

I think I meant 6 of 8, then 8 of 6. Also, I was unaware of your packet constraints. Given you're using 10 packets total, I can't help you there.

No, you meant 8 of 6, then 8 of 6, given packet constraints.

8 prelim brackets of 6: 5 rounds
8 playoff brackets of 6: Top 12 teams advance to the top set of brackets, A and B (top in each bracket and 4 wild cards). Each of the two brackets gets 4 top seeds and 2 wild cards. 5 rounds. Remaining teams that are in the top half of their prelim bracket go into the second set of brackets (brackets C and D). Do the same thing with teams 25-36 (4th place in each bracket, 4 wild cards from 5th and 6th place finishers in brackets E and F) and 37-48 (brackets G and H).
Finals round: Team 1A vs 1B, 2A vs 2B, ..., 6A vs 6B for positions 1-12; 1C vs 1D, 2C vs 2D, ..., 6C vs 6D for positions 13-24; 1E vs 1F, 2E vs 2F, ..., 6E vs 6F for positions 25-36; 1G vs 1H, 2G vs 2H, ..., 6G vs 6H for positions 37-48.

[Whiter Hydra]

OK. Field update has been updated to show Robinson down to 1 team along with 3 new registrations, bringing us to 32 if I can add correctly.

I've told everyone that I'm bad at making schedules, but I know some people have been distressed at the possibility of a single-elim play-off, so I put some thought into it. This is what I've come up with (note that it only works if we hit our cap; contingency plans will be made around the same idea, hopefully):

Eight prelim brackets of 6
2 play-off brackets of 5, with the top team from each bracket and 2 wild cards (probably by W-L then PPB)
A single elim consolation bracket to guarantee everyone 6 games.
Cross-bracket finals in the main bracket as was done at QuAC for final placement (i.e. the top two play each other for 1st, the next two play for 3rd, and so on).

Comments? I think this seems to be the fairest thing to do with 10 rounds, but I welcome input.

If you do 2 playoff brackets of 5, it will still take five rounds to do, as one team will have a bye every round. It would be better to do 2 brackets of 6 each instead.

[Mechanical Beasts]

Eight prelim brackets of 6
2 play-off brackets of 5, with the top team from each bracket and 2 wild cards (probably by W-L then PPB)
A single elim consolation bracket to guarantee everyone 6 games.
Cross-bracket finals in the main bracket as was done at QuAC for final placement (i.e. the top two play each other for 1st, the next two play for 3rd, and so on).

If you do 2 playoff brackets of 5, it will still take five rounds to do, as one team will have a bye every round. It would be better to do 2 brackets of 6 each instead.

The issue is that two of six ALSO uses five packets, and they would have nothing left for the final. Just doesn't work. You could run two of four, though that feels a little small--it would certainly be better for packets, and it avoids the stickiness of using statistical tiebreakers for the wildcard.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Eight prelim brackets of 6
2 play-off brackets of 5, with the top team from each bracket and 2 wild cards (probably by W-L then PPB)
A single elim consolation bracket to guarantee everyone 6 games.
Cross-bracket finals in the main bracket as was done at QuAC for final placement (i.e. the top two play each other for 1st, the next two play for 3rd, and so on).

If you do 2 playoff brackets of 5, it will still take five rounds to do, as one team will have a bye every round. It would be better to do 2 brackets of 6 each instead.

The issue is that two of six ALSO uses five packets, and they would have nothing left for the final. Just doesn't work. You could run two of four, though that feels a little small--it would certainly be better for packets, and it avoids the stickiness of using statistical tiebreakers for the wildcard.

Thanks, Andy and Harry. That makes sense... somehow I don't think of these things. Two of four probably would be the best we can manage, then.

[cvdwightw]

Hey, I'm not sure whether any other thing than the eight brackets of six, two brackets of four will work given the constraints (1) no single-elim and (2) 48 teams, 10 packets, (3) don't eliminate half your field before 3 rounds.

If you and teams are willing to do the "eliminate half your field from contention after three rounds" you can do the following:

Prelims: 12 brackets of 4. Top team in each bracket, 12 wild cards advance.
Playoffs: 12 brackets of 4, split into six top and six bottom brackets. Top team in each of the 6 top brackets, 2 wild cards advance. This gives everyone six rounds.
Playoffs-2: Two top brackets of four. Up to ten other brackets of four (depending on who stays), with 9-16 and 17-24 being split like 1-8 and 33-48 being similar if teams are staying around. Basically try to divide each group of eight into two roughly-equal groups of four.
Finals: 1A vs 1B, 2A vs 2B, 3A vs 3B, 4A vs 4B. Similar with the other "pods" of eight.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

GDS brings us to 34 teams. I know most people are on Thanksgiving break right now, but if you've been thinking about registering, please do so soon so we can get a schedule worked out.

[intothenegs]

Hey, I'm not sure whether any other thing than the eight brackets of six, two brackets of four will work given the constraints (1) no single-elim and (2) 48 teams, 10 packets, (3) don't eliminate half your field before 3 rounds.

If you and teams are willing to do the "eliminate half your field from contention after three rounds" you can do the following:

Prelims: 12 brackets of 4. Top team in each bracket, 12 wild cards advance.
Playoffs: 12 brackets of 4, split into six top and six bottom brackets. Top team in each of the 6 top brackets, 2 wild cards advance. This gives everyone six rounds.
Playoffs-2: Two top brackets of four. Up to ten other brackets of four (depending on who stays), with 9-16 and 17-24 being split like 1-8 and 33-48 being similar if teams are staying around. Basically try to divide each group of eight into two roughly-equal groups of four.
Finals: 1A vs 1B, 2A vs 2B, 3A vs 3B, 4A vs 4B. Similar with the other "pods" of eight.

I think the double rebracketing involved with this would take way too long, and it's not a good idea for playoff rounds to be determined after three matches. I think 8 of 6 and then 12 of 4 would work better, although that does reduce the number of matches played.

[dtaylor4]

I think the double rebracketing involved with this would take way too long, and it's not a good idea for playoff rounds to be determined after three matches. I think 8 of 6 and then 12 of 4 would work better, although that does reduce the number of matches played.

So, under your proposed system, you could go undefeated and not make the top bracket of the playoffs? Please tell me how this is fair.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

So far it seems to me like 8 brackets of 6 followed by 2 play-off brackets of 4 with single elim for the consolation games is the best option. Of course this all becomes merely a point to work from if we don't hit our cap, which it appears we may not.

[closesesame]

The key to this system is that you need to bracket well; otherwise, you may well find several top teams sitting in the single-elimination consolation rounds...

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

The key to this system is that you need to bracket well; otherwise, you may well find several top teams sitting in the single-elimination consolation rounds...

Yeah; I'm going to be watching that. If it appears I can not do that for certain, we'll have to figure something else out.

[intothenegs]

I think the double rebracketing involved with this would take way too long, and it's not a good idea for playoff rounds to be determined after three matches. I think 8 of 6 and then 12 of 4 would work better, although that does reduce the number of matches played.

So, under your proposed system, you could go undefeated and not make the top bracket of the playoffs? Please tell me how this is fair.

Well, this would involve two top brackets, with cross bracket finals, so that the top team from each bracket can reach those brackets.

EDIT: what Sarah said.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

I perused the thread, but i didn't see specifically... what time will everything be starting? First meeting by 9am-ish?

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

I perused the thread, but i didn't see specifically... what time will everything be starting? First meeting by 9am-ish?

Yes. We'll be working out exact details and preparing a letter to all teams most likely on Monday; information will be sent out by Wednesday.

[ExcessStrausses]

Stuyvesant would like to regretfully withdraw our team. We have been cut off from our source of funds and would be unable to pay the registration fee (or the costs of hotels and transportation).

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Ocean Lakes and Collegiate bring our field to 36. It's looking like we almost definitely won't hit our cap, unless Charter decides to come and brings a small army. I encourage anyone who has been thinking about registering to do so ASAP so we can make schedules. Thanks, everyone.

[Flipper311]

Hi all,

My name is Andy Filipowicz. I'm the coach of Ocean Lakes High School...just signed up for the tournament and looking forward to the strong competition.

I am attempting to put the finishing touches on the paperwork at my school. Anyone know the actual registration fee? We are brining our buzzer system. I hear that knocks off $10?

Thanks in advance for your responses,
Andy Filipowicz
Ocean Lakes High School

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Richard Montgomery has withdrawn, dropping our field back down to 34. I encourage those teams who were considering registering to do so tomorrow or Thursday, preferably tomorrow.

[closesesame]

Sarah, I know the number of teams attending is still nebulous, but do you have a general idea of how the bracketing/tournament format is going to work?

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Sarah, I know the number of teams attending is still nebulous, but do you have a general idea of how the bracketing/tournament format is going to work?

If we get 36, I'm thinking 6 prelim brackets of 6 (because I don't want fewer than 5 prelim games), top team in each bracket makes the play-offs plus 2 wildcards TBD on W-L, then PPB. Single-elim consolation for everyone else to get everyone 6 games. Two play-off brackets of 4 with finals like they were at QuAC for final placement (top teams in each bracket play for first, etc.). I welcome any suggestions people may have, though. Schedule-making is not something I've ever done before nor something I appear to have much aptitude for.

Also, there is a parade going on that day that I became aware of this evening. Several streets will be closed. I'll include more complete information in the email I send out to registered teams, and I will probably post that letter here.

[TheKingInYellow]

The one complaint I had with QuAC bracketing was the we (State College) never got to play you (Maggie Walker). It's not a huge deal, but taking third when we only ever lost to the first place team was a little aggravating. Plus, I really wanna play you guys :D

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

The one complaint I had with QuAC bracketing was the we (State College) never got to play you (Maggie Walker). It's not a huge deal, but taking third when we only ever lost to the first place team was a little aggravating. Plus, I really wanna play you guys :D

I want to play you guys very much as well. That was my only real complaint with QuAC. I don't know how to get around stuff like that, though.

[aestheteboy]

If you have 10 packets already, I would prefer a system that allows for teams to play 10 games. If you only have 9 and plan to write only 9, I guess what you have works.

[Mechanical Beasts]

If you have 10 packets already, I would prefer a system that allows for teams to play 10 games. If you only have 9 and plan to write only 9, I guess what you have works.

Unless you take, like, a four team top bracket and use statistical tiebreakers throughout, that's hard to do.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Whoops...is that only 9 games? We have 10 rounds. I'm bad at math. Hang on. Prelim round robins of 6 is 5 games...I see where I screwed up. I think my original plan took the top 10, not the top 8....but 5 teams puts in a bye and takes 5 rounds. Ok. Now I have no idea what I'm doing. Help?

[Matt Weiner]

A round-robin without byes must always take an odd number of games; you can't use exactly 4 packets for the playoffs under a bracketed system. The system you posted seems fine, and lets you use packet 10 to break ties for entrance into the final, which will be more likely and more meaningful than ties out of the prelims.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

That sounds like a good idea to me, too. I don't like the idea of a circle of death. How about this: we use the system I proposed (which might take some figuring out, as teams keep dropping out) and let people play round 10 if they want (and they didn't play it as a tiebreaker), against whoever they want. Find an opponent and we'll find you a room to play in. That way, teams who haven't had a chance to face each other this season can do so if they wish. We'll probably have to do an interest check for this in the morning so we know which buzzers we can use.

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Cosby B has dropped, putting us at 33 teams (I think). One more would be great, three more would be awesome. I encourage teams who were thinking of coming to register.

[Allez Cuisine]

Sorry for the dick move, but TJ only has enough people interested and available to bring 4 teams, not five.