Illinois '08-'09

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:56 am

New Trier will be the opposite of Loyola...
IHSA-style Tossups and distribution as opposed to NAQT Tossups
mACF-style Bonuses as opposed to IHSA-style Bonuses (though bouncebacks in both cases)
Negs without powers as opposed to Powers without negs

Hopefully, it will be as good.

After the morning, we will have 1 5-0 team, 5 4-1 teams, and 10-3-2 teams. We are thinking of having the 5-0 team and top 4-1 team taking the first playoff round off (or playing that round against anybody in an unofficial capacity), while the four other 4-1 and top four 3-2 teams play off. The two teams that had Round Six off and the two 4-1 teams that won Round Six will then play a three-match round robin for the Championship. The two 4-1 teams that lost Round Six and the two 3-2 teams that won Round Six will play a three-match round robin for the Consolation. The Championship will be determined by Round Robin record, then entire day record not including Round Six, then points scored not including Round Six. For points scored, both for tiebreakers at the end of the morning and final standings, we will use median points scored. We also will try to arrange Round Six to avoid rematches.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:17 pm

So after playoffs

5-0 team gets bye
4-1 team that lost to 5-0 team gets bye

Seeded by median score

#2 4-1 team plays #5 4-1 team
#3 4-1 plays #4 4-1 team

The winners go to the champ bracket with the two bye teams
and then

#1 3-2 team plays #4 3-2 team
#2 3-2 team plays #3 3-2

with the winner of those going to a playoff bracket with the losers that are 4-2?

oops, read the bottom of your post...
Last edited by BGSO on Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cornfused » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:17 pm

BGSO wrote:seeded by media score
What?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:18 pm

Median, my bad
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:10 pm

I can't wait for NTV.


I'm pretty sure playing the top 5 scorers against the Moderator All-Stars would make for a very, very interesting matchup, considering who could be there. Considering a true All-Star team would result in a massacre (Herr Sorice), I'd say we limit it to to players who graduated from HS in the last couple of years.

Imagine some combination of Gregs Gauthier and Peterson, Jonah, Carlo, Nick Matchen, and other recent grads...I just wish John Brown could come.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by adeveau » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:38 pm

While we're on the subject, I'd just like to go on record with my endorsment of a Egan-Petrson throwdown.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cornfused » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:17 am

adeveau wrote:While we're on the subject, I'd just like to go on record with my endorsment of a Egan-Peterson throwdown.
Well, the first version of this occurred at the end of my senior year on two NAQT packets, and it was in fact awesome.

Egan won't be at New Trier Varsity, though.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:39 am

I won't be around for any throwdowns after Round Nine, so anybody trying to organize something like that should bring questions. We could do something like that during Round Six using the questions from Round Six, but the teams that finished #3-10 in the morning would have something else to do.

Also, to correct the one detail that BGSO got wrong above, the 4-1 team with the bye will be the one with the highest median score, not necessarily the one that won its first four matches.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cornfused » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:21 pm

Shcool wrote:I won't be around for any throwdowns after Round Nine, so anybody trying to organize something like that should bring questions.
All we need is a room and a buzzer system, Coach. Loyola's, maybe?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:46 pm

We can probably supply a buzzer system.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:16 pm

So if, theoretically, there was a huge email thread making the rounds among IL coaches regarding 1 part/10 seconds x3 bonuses vs. 3-5 parts/30 seconds bonuses, what would your opinions be about the sweeping change? I'm particularly interested in the "Quizbowl Illuminati/Cabal" type people who make the rounds here every once in a while. They tend to make very rational arguments that one could emulate when speaking to "misinformed" coaches. I'm also interested if anyone, particularly players, has any positives that they can weigh in with about the current IHSA format.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:29 pm

mlaird wrote:So if, theoretically, there was a huge email thread making the rounds among IL coaches regarding 1 part/10 seconds x3 bonuses vs. 3-5 parts/30 seconds bonuses
ahhahahahaaha
Last edited by JackGlerum on Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:40 pm

mlaird wrote:So if, theoretically, there was a huge email thread making the rounds among IL coaches regarding 1 part/10 seconds x3 bonuses vs. 3-5 parts/30 seconds bonuses, what would your opinions be about the sweeping change? I'm particularly interested in the "Quizbowl Illuminati/Cabal" type people who make the rounds here every once in a while. They tend to make very rational arguments that one could emulate when speaking to "misinformed" coaches. I'm also interested if anyone, particularly players, has any positives that they can weigh in with about the current IHSA format.

They allow time for quick conversations if needed--10 seconds isn't enough time for, say, deciding where to have lunch.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:43 pm

Are there any positives?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:51 pm

mlaird wrote:So if, theoretically, there was a huge email thread making the rounds among IL coaches regarding 1 part/10 seconds x3 bonuses vs. 3-5 parts/30 seconds bonuses, what would your opinions be about the sweeping change? I'm particularly interested in the "Quizbowl Illuminati/Cabal" type people who make the rounds here every once in a while. They tend to make very rational arguments that one could emulate when speaking to "misinformed" coaches. I'm also interested if anyone, particularly players, has any positives that they can weigh in with about the current IHSA format.
I think an interesting argument to be made is that the ACF format allows question quality to increase. That is, it's really hard to write bonuses such that you can read all three to five parts at once that are logically connected in a way that tests progressively deeper knowledge on one subject, since commonly some convolution would then be necessary to avoid revealing the answer to previous parts. So bonuses would be more clearly written AND they'd take less time to write, giving writers more time to write better questions overall.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:56 pm

everyday847 wrote:
mlaird wrote:So if, theoretically, there was a huge email thread making the rounds among IL coaches regarding 1 part/10 seconds x3 bonuses vs. 3-5 parts/30 seconds bonuses, what would your opinions be about the sweeping change? I'm particularly interested in the "Quizbowl Illuminati/Cabal" type people who make the rounds here every once in a while. They tend to make very rational arguments that one could emulate when speaking to "misinformed" coaches. I'm also interested if anyone, particularly players, has any positives that they can weigh in with about the current IHSA format.
I think an interesting argument to be made is that the ACF format allows question quality to increase. That is, it's really hard to write bonuses such that you can read all three to five parts at once that are logically connected in a way that tests progressively deeper knowledge on one subject, since commonly some convolution would then be necessary to avoid revealing the answer to previous parts. So bonuses would be more clearly written AND they'd take less time to write, giving writers more time to write better questions overall.
Combine this concept with the pyramidal concept of "hard clues, sure, but we can play on easy answer selection!" to get a really good all-difficulty-level argument. (Man, I wish I had stable internet right now!)
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:22 pm

Before getting into what Matt brought up, I want to strongly encourage every active Illinois Schobowler to apply for this. While there are a lot of specifically Scholastic Bowl issues that the group will never take up, there are also issues that could be brought up. I am thinking specifically of the question as to why activities have season limitations and why Sectionals have to be determined entirely on geography, with one Sectional champ each. (Compare Football, for which the state is broken down into only two Sections, to everything else, which is broken down into eight). It would be very good if lots of you applied. Very, very good. Part of the goals of the group are to encourage good sportsmanship, so make sure you mention in your essay how much you love good sportsmanship.

As to the discussion Matt raised, coaches are coming at this from a lot of different directions. There are so many issues up in the air right now that it is difficult to keep them straight. The big issues, as I see them, are pyramidal questions, bonus structure, academic content, the development of an academic canon, the development of elite teams, and the expectation of elite teams that questions and tournaments will be structured to reward their knowledge. Sometimes somebody will think they are discussing one of these things when they are actually discussing another, and sometimes it is difficult to separate them.

In addition to that, the status quo always has its defenders. Sometimes this is for good reason: you get better moderators when the rules stay the same all the time, and students do a better job of maximizing their potential when they are used to the rules. At Kickoffs, I saw a lot of teams being silent during bonuses, which is a symptom of a team playing in a format they are not used to. There also were a lot of matches taking a long time, which is a symptom of moderators not being used to the format. I am a supporter of the changes, but I'm not going to pretend that changes are 100% good.

There is also the issue of the purpose of playing Scholastic Bowl for a day. Some of the coaches in the thread Matt referred to spoke positively about the amount of conferring that takes place in IHSA matches. There is a lot of time spent conferring, and it does build team cohesiveness and reward teamwork. It also is a learning opportunity--if a group of students spends thirty seconds discussing Hamlet, that's a good thing. The problem is that all of the conferring comes at a price--teams play fewer matches and hear fewer questions over the course of the day when you use IHSA format, particularly doing an entire bonus at once and rebounding. For people who are crazy about Scholastic Bowl (which is a good thing), fewer matches and questions is a serious drawback. Part of it may be because the discussions are less important if you are making notes about the things you don't understand or considering reading through the questions at a later date, or those discussion may be less important if you have heard the topic come up before in a match and/or expect it to come up again.

The time of matches is an issue. Our rules were written when tossup conversion was generally less than 75%, and we now have a lot of matches where the conversion is significantly above that. Changing bonus formats can help with that, but the compromise way in which IHSSBCA is implementing them is not really achieving that goal. (In order to not make teams feel like they are being rushed, we have allowed ten seconds per part and rebounds. Some teams claim that they are still being rushed.) The way we have done it has been a group decision, but I have been the primary person in charge of that decision.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:35 pm

Thought, allow team to confer while the bonus is being read, the extra three or four seconds is normally the difference between feeling rushed and having the right amount of time.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:40 pm

Another way to look at 10 second per part bonuses is that it may be easier to keep things straight when each bonus part is read individually.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:02 am

Question regarding IHSA rules...
When I look over my copy of the IHSA rules, it seems that a player giving the "wait" gesture to teammates is not illegally communicating. That didn't occur to me that it could be used as part of game strategy until one of our games at Loyola Saturday. During the reading of a question, a player put his buzzer out in front of him for a few seconds before buzzing. Watching him and his teammates, it seemed clear that this was a signal to his teammates that he thought he knew where this question was going and just give him a couple more words. It wasn't done every time. Nay, this was the only instance I saw it. But is this something that's coached out there? Please excuse my ignorance and middle school background where communication, of any sort, during the toss-up is proscribed at the IESA level. Players & coaches please weigh in.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:04 am

Anti-Climacus wrote:Another way to look at 10 second per part bonuses is that it may be easier to keep things straight when each bonus part is read individually.
Yeah, I feel like teams will find that they have enough time once they realize that they don't have to do as much decoding (since the questions may be more straightforward) and don't have to juggle multiple answers. (I remember that we were terrible in high school at the long list bonuses or, worse, the ordering bonuses, since we had to juggle a lot of information.)

Also, I don't know how many coaches will use the "we feel rushed" argument for anything more than saying that the transition is difficult. After all, unless their kids are dumber than the rest of the nation (they're not!) or slower to react (they're not!), they should, with practice, be able to answer bonus parts in five seconds (or NAQT's what, three?) like the rest of the country.

Hell, you could even appeal (secretly!) to the desires of the anti-competitive coaches by suggesting that this actually gives them a better shot against the elite IHSA teams, which have naturally optimized themselves to the constraints of the IHSA format and are best able to take advantage of that long conferral time. Alter that status quo, and everyone's equally OH NO SCREWED. (Hm, I guess this is not actually so, since teams could complain that this unfairly advantages teams that choose to play at NAQT tournaments. Obviously "unfairly" is just the word they'd put there, not reflective of actual fact, but that'll be an interesting argument to oppose.)
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by jonah » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:48 am

Woody Paige wrote:Question regarding IHSA rules...
When I look over my copy of the IHSA rules, it seems that a player giving the "wait" gesture to teammates is not illegally communicating. That didn't occur to me that it could be used as part of game strategy until one of our games at Loyola Saturday. During the reading of a question, a player put his buzzer out in front of him for a few seconds before buzzing. Watching him and his teammates, it seemed clear that this was a signal to his teammates that he thought he knew where this question was going and just give him a couple more words. It wasn't done every time. Nay, this was the only instance I saw it. But is this something that's coached out there? Please excuse my ignorance and middle school background where communication, of any sort, during the toss-up is proscribed at the IESA level. Players & coaches please weigh in.
Yeah, that's coached, or at least we were at NT, and I've seen it used at the collegiate level too. Most commonly it's used after a neg (whether there's a penalty for it or not) to indicate that the player making the gesture will answer the tossup after it's entirely read.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:12 am

It's sorta like a vulch-defense mechanism.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by harpersferry » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:48 am

It's also the creator of hilarity when two players try to out-extend each other as a signal of: "I got this." "No I got this more" "Oh hell no, it's on!", etc. Bonus hilarity for buzzers that fall off the table and inadvertently make one of the other players buzz who is innocently watching said hilarity and then is forced to answer.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Stephen Colbert » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:54 am

Woody Paige wrote:Question regarding IHSA rules...
When I look over my copy of the IHSA rules, it seems that a player giving the "wait" gesture to teammates is not illegally communicating. That didn't occur to me that it could be used as part of game strategy until one of our games at Loyola Saturday. During the reading of a question, a player put his buzzer out in front of him for a few seconds before buzzing. Watching him and his teammates, it seemed clear that this was a signal to his teammates that he thought he knew where this question was going and just give him a couple more words. It wasn't done every time. Nay, this was the only instance I saw it. But is this something that's coached out there? Please excuse my ignorance and middle school background where communication, of any sort, during the toss-up is proscribed at the IESA level. Players & coaches please weigh in.
I coached my middle school players to use a wait gesture, usually sticking their arms out like they were holding the other players back, especially when a toss-up was missed by the other team. It was basically a quick reminder to each other to make sure they waited to hear the rest of the question. Or, if someone was super-confident and wanted the first shot at it, but was making sure the question didn't go off on some strange tangent (which seems to happen regularly at that level). If questioned about it, I always used my "but the IHSA does it that way" defense. This seemed to work. My bad.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cornfused » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:08 am

Irving Alva Edison Hobophone Inventor wrote:It's also the creator of hilarity when two players try to out-extend each other as a signal of: "I got this." "No I got this more" "Oh hell no, it's on!", etc. Bonus hilarity for buzzers that fall off the table and inadvertently make one of the other players buzz who is innocently watching said hilarity and then is forced to answer.
My favorite is when two players do this, both concede to the other guy's desire to buzz, and the tossup goes dead.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:57 am

cornfused wrote:
Irving Alva Edison Hobophone Inventor wrote:It's also the creator of hilarity when two players try to out-extend each other as a signal of: "I got this." "No I got this more" "Oh hell no, it's on!", etc. Bonus hilarity for buzzers that fall off the table and inadvertently make one of the other players buzz who is innocently watching said hilarity and then is forced to answer.
My favorite is when two players do this, both concede to the other guy's desire to buzz, and the tossup goes dead.
My favorite is when one player, in the act of claiming a question, knocks his hand into that of the player sitting next to him and presses his teammate's buzzer.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:15 pm

Woody Paige wrote:Question regarding IHSA rules...
When I look over my copy of the IHSA rules, it seems that a player giving the "wait" gesture to teammates is not illegally communicating. That didn't occur to me that it could be used as part of game strategy until one of our games at Loyola Saturday. During the reading of a question, a player put his buzzer out in front of him for a few seconds before buzzing. Watching him and his teammates, it seemed clear that this was a signal to his teammates that he thought he knew where this question was going and just give him a couple more words. It wasn't done every time. Nay, this was the only instance I saw it. But is this something that's coached out there? Please excuse my ignorance and middle school background where communication, of any sort, during the toss-up is proscribed at the IESA level. Players & coaches please weigh in.
Yes, the Loyola team did do this many times during the two games that I moderated for them. I am not sure that I personally like it. If you do it before a neg, you are signalling to the other team that you know the answer. If you do this after a neg, you may prevent teammates who know the answer from answering correctly if your hunch proves incorrect. Our team will not use any communication before a neg. After a neg, our whole team waits for the question to be read. If you know the answer, you buzz in the instant when the question is finished. If you have a hunch, you buzz in a second after the question is completed. I may be wrong, but this seems more logical if you care about your team winning and not about individual stats.
Shcool wrote: I am thinking specifically of the question as to why activities have season limitations and why Sectionals have to be determined entirely on geography, with one Sectional champ each. (Compare Football, for which the state is broken down into only two Sections, to everything else, which is broken down into eight).
This needs to happen. There should not be sectionals of death like last year, when New Trier did not make state. This year, one of the best four teams (Loyola or New Trier) will not qualify for state. There is no reason why there could not be local regionals, but spread out sectionals. Hopefully, this is an issue that the student board can fix.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:26 pm

But aren't regionals and sectionals the IHSA, while the student board will be a component of the IHSSBCA?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:49 pm

BGSO wrote:But aren't regionals and sectionals the IHSA, while the student board will be a component of the IHSSBCA?
If you bothered to read, you would notice that we are talking about the new IHSA board.

This sounds like a good development, though the restrictions of members (geographic, age, white people) seem a little crazy.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:53 pm

Jesus with the attitude, Buffalo Grove people.
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JackGlerum
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:01 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote:This year, one of the best four teams (Loyola or New Trier) will not qualify for state.
But let's be honest, does anyone really care about IHSA state? Yeah, it'd be cool to go, but A) beating a team on IHSA questions feels so illegit, and B) quizbowl isn't like football and basketball where winning state is the ultimate goal, rather, doing your best at nationals is.

edit: but yes, the geography issue is a big problem, but isn't it sort of inevitable in a rural state with a massive metropolis in one corner?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:57 pm

JackGlerum wrote:
BG MSL Champs wrote:This year, one of the best four teams (Loyola or New Trier) will not qualify for state.
But let's be honest, does anyone really care about IHSA state?
Given that thread of emails that I know you have in your inbox, I'd say, yes, a lot of coaches apparently care about it more than anything else.

EDIT: Also, Mike Sacks brought up a good point in that thread of emails:

"We're not speaking to catering to the median and vast majority. We're
speaking to NOT cater to the "elite" teams. Right now, the rules are
standard rules that have been around for awhile, and no one has given a
reason why it would benefit the majority to change them. The reasons seem
to be focused on "Well, this is what the rest of the country is doing."
And that's a reasonable reason. I'd be interested in knowing, however,
how many other States have 525 high schools participating in the State
Series like we had last year. We have a large participation right now in
Illinois, and I really see that dwindling if we adopt [these] rules.

...

I agree that the rest of the nation uses a different format, and I agree
that by adopting this we may end up having teams at the top stronger
because of it, but I disagree that this would be good for the Illinois
Scholastic Bowl community at large. I don't think the IHSA format limits
the ability of top teams to learn and develop their skills, and I think
there are some major adventages to having 30 second bonuses -- ones I've
stated here and before that help encourage participation from all levels
of programs from around the State."

Thoughts?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:40 pm

Irving Alva Edison Hobophone Inventor wrote:It's also the creator of hilarity when two players try to out-extend each other as a signal of: "I got this." "No I got this more" "Oh hell no, it's on!", etc. Bonus hilarity for buzzers that fall off the table and inadvertently make one of the other players buzz who is innocently watching said hilarity and then is forced to answer.
Worse: At Earlybird, Michael put out his "I got it" signal, and in doing so, hit my buzzer. He knew the answer, and I was too puzzled to say anything. It was pretty hilarious a minute later, but the downright shock and angry glares scarred me for life.

I think another annoying one is when you put the signal out, but someone else goes in at the last word, probably because they didn't see the signal. Personally, I'm a fan of Ben Cohen's occasional raising of the buzzer hand.
Zahed Haseeb

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by TheKingInYellow » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:00 pm

Most teams just go with a straight out horizontal hand thrust, that I've seen, but a few (Shady Side, or am I misremembering?) go straight up vertical, statue of liberty sort of thing. I could see how the vertical would make it much more obvious to the rest of the team, but personally, my arm would get tired. I'll risk possible miscommunication.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:19 pm

Well, I'd raise two things. First of all, I'd be sure to raise and hammer that these are still 30-second bonuses: having 3 10-second chunks of time with fewer (or at least not more) answers to discuss should actually increase collaboration (mean time spend discussing each part is higher, not lower.) I think the effect of teams not collaborating properly is simply that they haven't been prepared to play on such questions. I say that as someone with a great deal of experience seeing teams work and playing on teams using both types of bonuses: I may be wrong, but there's no doubt whatsoever that this timing issue is a red herring.
Secondly, I'd say that I think this benefits the mean by just allowing better questions to be written. The burden of writing parts that don't reveal the answer to previous parts, as required by the old Illinois format, means that subjects can only be covered in very superficial ways by bonuses (all attempts to do otherwise have failed in my experience.) That is pedagogically detrimental and benefits nobody: players are learning less and are getting less ground to show off what they know (or less exposure to new, interesting things and incentive to learn about them.)
In fact, that speaks a general point I don't think is being driven home enough. Quizbowl coaches are educators with few exceptions: it is their duty to use this game not as an end in itself, but as a means to achieve greater education of the students under their charge. I contend that the change to ACF-style bonuses is one that promotes learning and is therefore actually more important than anything else in the game.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:27 pm

Captain Scipio wrote:First of all, I'd be sure to raise and hammer that these are still 30-second bonuses: having 3 10-second chunks of time with fewer (or at least not more) answers to discuss should actually increase collaboration (mean time spend discussing each part is higher, not lower.)
My HS coach was under the impression that it was good to have a whole block of time so that you could answer the easy parts quickly in order to save more time to discuss the parts you don't know. Then again, she also believes that quizbowl should test "figuring it out" rather than knowledge.
Greg (Vanderbilt 2012, Wheaton North 2008)

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:54 pm

Right, but my point is that this does that for you automatically: you have 10 seconds to discuss just one part! That's almost never going to be the case in the old format, even if you know some of the parts dead-bang.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:52 am

A Field Update on next month's Fremd Tournament. This is a mighty impressive undertaking... ~81 teams???? KP is a brave man.

Frosh-Soph WITH 39 TEAMS, I COULD ONE, OR THREE MORE - IF INTERESTED, LET ME KNOW.

1.Stevenson A 25. Buffalo Grove
2. """ B 26. Bradley-Bourbonnais
3. Maine East 27. Fenwick A
4. Wheaton North 28. """"' B
5. Carmel Catholic A 29.Naperville North
6. """""" B 30. Grayslake Central A
7. Leyden 31. """" B
8. Barrington 32. Palatine
9. Lake Zurich A 33. Lake Park
10. """"" B 34. Kaneland
11. Wheaton-Warrenville South A 35. Loyola
12. """""" B 36. Culver, IN
13. Latin 37. Naperville Central
14. Homewood-Flossmoor 38. Fremd A
15. Cary Grove 39. """" B
16. St. Ignatius
17. Marist
18. Evanston
19. IMSA
20. Fenton
21. Timothy Christian
22. Conant
23. Libertyville
24. The Lakes

Varsity THIS APPEARS CLOSED, HOWEVER I STILL HAVE A FEW TEAMS THAT EMAILED SAYING THEY WERE INTERESTED BUT RECEIVED NO REGISTRATION, SO THIS COULD CHANGE.

1. Stevenson 25. Lakes Community
2. Maine East 26. Buffalo Grove
3. Wheaton North 27. Bradley Bourbonnais A
4. Carmel Catholic A 28. """""" B
5. """" B 29. Fenwick A
6. Leyden 30. """ B
7. Barrington 31. Naperville North
8. Lake Zurich A 32. Grayslake Central A
9. """" B 33. """"" B
10. Wheaton-Warrenville South A 34. Palatine
11. """"" B 35. Lake Park
12. Latin 36. Loyola
13. Homewood-Flossmoor 37. Hersey A
14. Cary Grove 38. """"" B
15. St, Ignatius 39. Culver A
16. Marist 40. """" B
17. Evanston 41. Fremd A
18. IMSA 42. Fremd B
19. Fenton
20. Timothy Christian
21. Conant A
22. """"" B
23. St. Viators
24. Libertyville
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:16 am

Captain Scipio wrote:Right, but my point is that this does that for you automatically: you have 10 seconds to discuss just one part! That's almost never going to be the case in the old format, even if you know some of the parts dead-bang.
I think she means that if you know say the first three parts and can check them in 5 seconds, you should get the remaining 25 seconds to talk about the fourth part.
Greg (Vanderbilt 2012, Wheaton North 2008)

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:23 am

rjaguar3 wrote:
Captain Scipio wrote:Right, but my point is that this does that for you automatically: you have 10 seconds to discuss just one part! That's almost never going to be the case in the old format, even if you know some of the parts dead-bang.
I think she means that if you know say the first three parts and can check them in 5 seconds, you should get the remaining 25 seconds to talk about the fourth part.
Just throwing it out here, in a rather glib manner....if you can't come up with an answer in 10 seconds, I don't know how much good 15 extra seconds are going to do you. Further, I don't know if we should be giving those extra 15 seconds, seeing as how the point is to know things immediately, rather than racking one's brain to remember what is apparently forgotten. 10 seconds is enough time to ask around and, seeing no response, come up with an educated guess. Those 15 seconds are simply wasteful time that we could be spending getting to lunch by noon.
Brad Fischer
Head Editor, IHSA State Series

Winnebago HS ('06)
Northern Illinois University ('10)
Assistant Coach, IMSA (2010-12)
Coach, Keith Country Day School (2012-16)

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:26 am

rjaguar3 wrote:
Captain Scipio wrote:Right, but my point is that this does that for you automatically: you have 10 seconds to discuss just one part! That's almost never going to be the case in the old format, even if you know some of the parts dead-bang.
I think she means that if you know say the first three parts and can check them in 5 seconds, you should get the remaining 25 seconds to talk about the fourth part.
Right; I get what you're saying, but I think the cases of that are rate and, if they aren't now, should be.

MaS
Mike Sorice
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by harpersferry » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:27 am

Mike: they aren't rare. But I agree that they should be.

A couple years ago, we used to spend most of the 30 sec. just chatting. Then we realized that by calling time we were keeping the pace of the game lively and keeping ourselves on our toes. That strategy of keeping the energy up was the one that we used in my senior year. It made us play better in my opinion.

Edit: actually, now that I think about it, it usually happens that you know all the parts, not three out of four. And it is very rare that you'd get that last one as a buzzer beater after working on it for 25 seconds (excluding math comp).
John Brown
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:03 pm

Irving Alva Edison Hobophone Inventor wrote:And it is very rare that you'd get that last one as a buzzer beater after working on it for 25 seconds (excluding math comp).
(playing as Devil's Advocate) The point is that there is nothing to lose by waiting 25 seconds. If anything, you could earn more points by having a teammate pull the answer out of thin air. Hence, the dead time that results from Illinois format.
Greg (Vanderbilt 2012, Wheaton North 2008)

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:16 pm

rjaguar3 wrote:(playing as Devil's Advocate) The point is that there is nothing to lose by waiting 25 seconds.
But that's not true! Even if we only consider scoring, your opponents are also using that time to consider their answer.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:12 pm

OK, now that I've had the chance to look through _every_ game of the D&G T3, I've corrected all the ones where teams aren't credited for tossups they've earned. Again, you can find the updated stats here:
http://www.aegisquestions.com/DGT3/DGT3_standings.html
http://www.aegisquestions.com/DGT3/DGT3 ... dings.html

The playoff standings do not reflect the actual placement of those teams, since we had to use single elimination.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:49 pm

Can somebody let me know if Auburn is bringing three teams tomorrow? Marian Central will have enough students for two teams, so we'll be back up to 32 teams if Auburn has enough kids for three. We will use power matching if we have 24, 26, 28, 30, or 32 teams, one of which will almost certainly be the case. With fewer than 32 teams, there will be some skew matches between teams with uneven records, but such matches will be a small minority of all matches.

Also, to extend the summary of Coach Sacks' argument a bit to include some parts that were not quoted above, a large part of his support for IHSA style bonuses was that by having a format that encouraged students to write something down and then return to it several seconds later, the bonuses are set up in a way that makes it more likely for students to remember their content. The mACF format, because it is entirely oral and always moving forward, presents facts in a way that are easy to forget.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:27 pm

Ms. Greene was waiting to find out if one of the teams dropped out so we could bring 3. I'll pass along the message, and hopefully we'll be able to contact all the players in time.
Siva Sundaram, Rockford Auburn High School '09

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:21 pm

Is anyone else surprised by how closely the top teams are playing each other this year, especially lately? If we consider the consensus top 4 (in alphabetical order) as Auburn, Carbondale, Loyola, and New Trier, then everyone of the top four has at least one win and one loss against virtually every other team. Obviously, the standings have shaken out a little bit, so there's evidence for some sort of hierarchy, but nobody is safe. And if you add Stevenson as a dark horse (they didn't pull out wins over the top teams but did play us closely), the situation gets murkier. It looks like key matches will come down more and more to error-making and question set variability. This is exciting.
Siva Sundaram, Rockford Auburn High School '09

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sir Thopas » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:58 pm

Hunter is interested in mirroring Prison Bowl in Illinois around February. If you're interested, please email me at metsfan001 no spam at gmail dot com, and we can work something out.

Thanks!
Guy Tabachnick
Hunter '09
Brown '13

http://memoryofthisimpertinence.blogspot.com/

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