Georgia 2009-2010

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Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:50 pm

This is how I see the Georgia scene for next year, by team (in no particular order)-

Chattahoochee- They lose most of their A-team, and don’t have many juniors to fill in. They had a good JV team this year, so maybe those sophomores could step up. We’ll have to see.

Brookwood- They lose Vamsi and Arvind, who comprise most of their scoring. Andy stays, and he’s a good player. Their B-team has played well, too. But they had a poor JV team this year, so I’m not sure who’s going to fill in the A-team.

Centennial- The brothers Silverman are both returning next year. They can be a dangerous combo (Alpharetta never won a match against them last year). Unless they show up to more tournaments next year, though, it will be hard to tell. They definitely have a shot at the state title.

Walton- They had a strong showing at both nationals, but they lose Gazi, who was responsible for a majority of their scoring. Kayhan, I’m guessing, will continue to be Kayhan, and Abubakir is rapidly improving. They will be dangerous next year.

Central Gwinnett- They lose Patrick, who was most of their scoring. They had a strong JV team last year, especially that one player whose name escapes me, so they could come back strong next year.

Alpharetta- We return 4 out of 5 of our Varsity State team. We’re still young, with our A-team likely being entirely juniors and sophomores next year. I’m hoping we can be more competitive on the state level and attend a national tournament next year.

Some questions I have for next year:
1. Will GATA improve the state championship sets?
The Varsity State set this year was too easy, and the JV State set, though I understand there were extenuating circumstances, was just bad. Will GATA address these issues next year? One suggestion I would make is the adoption of 3-part instead of 2-part bonuses. Under the current system, we buy sets with 3-part bonuses from NAQT and take away the 3rd part. The effect of this, oftentimes, is to eliminate the hard part of the bonus and make games between top teams boil down to a shootout on tossups. This may be wishful thinking, but perhaps GATA would consider an HSAPQ set instead of NAQT? And I understand that Mr. Barry is a firm believer in computational math, but could GATA at least decrease the amount to at most 1/1 per packet?

2. Is Georgia sending a team to the HSAPQ All-Star Academic Tournament?
If the state is sending a team, will GATA be determining a process for selection?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by ToXiCRAiN » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:32 pm

Yes, I think Brookwood will win State both varsity and JV. they are very powerful.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:33 pm

William:

1. Good observations about GA for 2009-2010. I believe your team will do very well. I think Walton could be the team to beat, but it should be the usual suspects vying for the 5A title. One thing I can guarantee you: Chattahoochee won't be far from the title. Rountree won't let that happen. I will only have either 1 or 2 juniors among my 17-18 players depending on whether 1 of my 2 rising juniors parents move this summer.

2. GATA is always trying to get the best questions we can get. We do not always succeed. The Board voted to continue our pact with NAQT. The Board also will experiment with coaches writing some questions to create a database of questions for our State QuizMaster to utilize when we cannot use all of what NAQT sends us. They would supplement NAQT to meet our question formula. Kind of a stop-gap measure and one that may help us out in the future, say 2-3 years down the pike. Yes, they will be pyramidal tossups as we have done since 1988.

3. I think we have almost reached an agreement for real quality JV questions. Too late for you, but good for GA.

4. The GATA Board (15 high school coaches and ex-coaches from all over Georgia) did not vote to change the question formula. So computational math remains as ever, alternating with fine arts at 2 T's/B's then 3 T's/B's from match to match. Actually, I do not like math questons at all. But, the question is not what I like as questions, it is what our coaches voted to do and have supported ever since. And the logic most often used argues that computing is a large part of what high schoolers do in math which almost everyone takes for 4 years in GA. So, computational math is an appropriate subject for determining a state championship in Georgia. GATA's philosophy has always been that the primary factor in determining if a question is good is WHAT is asked first and SECOND how it is asked. We want pyramidal style tossups, but we want appropriate topics asked FIRST. (Have I wandered into Barry Regional/State Fallacy terrotory yet? I am not trying to be provacative. I am trying to answer William's question.)

5. GATA Board did not discuss the new HSAPQ all-star tournament back in May. No member brought it up and no one suggested it as an agenda topic from outside the Board. We did discuss several ideas that came from outside the Board, though. You may not know it, but Georgia was one of ther first states to pull out of the NTAE/PAC all-star tournament in 1998. GATA used to sponsor an all-star team three. We decided our money would be better spent giving free buzzer systems away at all our state events.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:56 pm

Mr. Barry,
Thanks for answering my questions. I'm glad to see you post again, as the Georgia board has been rather quiet this year. I'm also really glad to hear about the JV questions.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:09 pm

EDIT: On reflection, I feel that my post was impertinent as well as rude and ask that it be deleted.

User was warned for editing out the content of this post.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:44 pm

I think computation tossups, if they are allowed to exist, sound completely stupid when written pyramidally. If there was a consensus to allow math to be a minor exception to the rule of pyramidality, than maybe they have a place.

Although, we test knowledge in Quizbowl, not skill. I once competed in a horrid tournament that, while pyramidal, still included computation, and also asked a few ballet questions. The latter would be fine, except the participants were asked to name and perform the requested ballet position. Computation is like the "performing" asked in the tournament where we had to dance for the judges (well, our team didn't know squat about ballet to begin with, so others danced) because you have to know more than just knowledge. Quizbowl isn't a test of skill. If it were, than we would all be writing novels and discovering elements instead of just answering tossups about them.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:07 am

ToXiCRAiN wrote:JRBerry makes a very good point. Math is something taught at school. He also does have the best math player in the state, Eric Chen. Please do not remove math from the questions. Brookwood is a powerful team, and they need to win JV and V state, we cannot afford to lose math computation else it may hurt Brookwood's chances of winning both state tournaments next year.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:16 pm

William:

I wonder who that poster is as well.

Probably someone having fun at Brookwood's expense.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by quizbowler100 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:29 pm

Wouldn't the money be better spent on an all-star team rather than buzzers? The buzzers often go to schools that are not as into quizbowl as maybe Brookwood persay, thus they may not even use the buzzers much. This year, villa rica won it, and I'm not saying that they aren't going to put in effort, its just not likely that they will work AS hard as some schools that are more into quizbowl. So the Gata board is really just randomly rewarding a team rather than individual players who put in a great deal of effort. It seems more just to award players that work really hard over some team selected randomly from a lottery.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by CSQuizJags » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:55 pm

To the post listed above....I normally don't post anything other than announcements, but you deserve some semblance of an answer:

As a member (albeit a first year one) of the GATA board, maybe I could answer this simply...

Buzzers are cheaper.

Buzzers awarded to teams who participate at the GATA state tournament might actually jump start their program. If my team was awarded a free set of buzzers (even though we already have our own sets), I know we would use them. Not all teams are a Chattahoochee or a Brookwood- they don't have the large scale tournaments to fund their program. Most schools in the state rely on school funding, which, sad to say, is dwindling in support. The GATA board is trying to EXPAND the number of teams and schools involved so it doesn't look like we're all Metro Atlanta teams running the show, and if we can jump start a program with a free buzzer system, they could use that to become better and more involved in the game. .

The GATA board members, at least from what I observed, are more of the mindset that the game (in our state at least) is more of a GROUP/TEAM effort than an INDIVIDUAL effort, which is why you rarely see GA tournaments with individual standings (at least those hosted by high schools). If we did indeed sponsor a state team (which I know we used to do in the past), most of the players would be from what we call the "big boys" in the state (you know who they are), and there could be a misinterpretation from the smaller schools that "well...we could never be that way, so why try?" That's what we're trying to prevent by awarding schools buzzers IMO, which does not reflect the opinion of anyone else on the GATA board (that I know of...in fact, I would love for them to chime in as well).

As Rick has mentioned before, the topic never came up, but we'll try to talk it over at the next meeting in May 2010. We may also poll the coaches to get their input, so, if you are indeed a player (wish we knew who you were, but I do understand sometime wanting to remain cloaked), let your coach know.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:27 pm

CSQuizJags wrote: Buzzers are cheaper.
Really? How many buzzers does GATA give out each year? I would guess that the price would be at least similar to the $500 entrance fee for HSAPQ.
The GATA board members, at least from what I observed, are more of the mindset that the game (in our state at least) is more of a GROUP/TEAM effort than an INDIVIDUAL effort, which is why you rarely see GA tournaments with individual standings (at least those hosted by high schools).
This kind of mindset bothers me. Chorus is a group effort, but there is still an All-State Chorus that recognizes students for excelling at it. At some point you realize that groups are improved by the efforts of individuals, sometimes alone and sometimes cooperating, and that individuals can excel at a group activity without harming the team.
If we did indeed sponsor a state team (which I know we used to do in the past), most of the players would be from what we call the "big boys" in the state (you know who they are), and there could be a misinterpretation from the smaller schools that "well...we could never be that way, so why try?" That's what we're trying to prevent by awarding schools buzzers IMO, which does not reflect the opinion of anyone else on the GATA board (that I know of...in fact, I would love for them to chime in as well).
This statement bothers me as well. First of all, it's patronizing to supposed "smaller schools." Also, it perpetuates the notion that the "big boys" are determined by what school you go to and not your ability level. Coming from a school that is not a traditional "big boy" at state, I can tell you that that is a false notion.
As Rick has mentioned before, the topic never came up, but we'll try to talk it over at the next meeting in May 2010.
Considering the tournament is in June 2010, I would appreciate if GATA could perhaps act more quickly. I think there's a certain amount of prestige afforded to a state organization by sending an All-Star team to a national tournament, especially considering how good the Georgia team could be next year.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Andrew's a Freshman » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:42 pm

I read on an unrelated thread that the date for the Gwinnett County 2009 Tournament is set for September 19. Most calenders list Jewish holidays and, as many calender owners may be aware, Rosh Hashanah also happens to occur on this date. This is the second major conflict that I have as a Jewish Georgia quizbowler after Norcross was unable to attend the JV state tournament two years ago on Passover.

First of all, is this the correct date for that tournament? If so, can these kind of conflicts not be avoided knowing the abundance of Jews that participate in quiz bowl?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:22 pm

Andrew:

Gwinnett County seems to schedule that event without any concern for any religious holidays.

I will say that I never got an answer officially when I asked when this year's County Tournament would be held. I suggested Sept 26 or Sept 12. I was told back in May it would be Sept 19 or Sept 26. I still do not know for sure.

State JV is being moved back into late February, the last Saturday in February.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by quizbowler100 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:07 pm

Around how many tournaments does Cedar Shoals expect to hold this year?

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by CSQuizJags » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:48 pm

Three as always.

JV Jag- Oct 24, 2009
Bulldog Brawl at Cedar Shoals- Jan 30, 2010
Jag Bowl IV- Feb 20, 2010 (or 27th, whichever day is NOT GATA JV State)

All are on NAQT question sets JV: A-set, the others, regular.

Interested? Email the team cedarquizjags@yahoo.com

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:02 am

GA will have several strong teams in 5A this year at the Varsity level - perhaps as many as we have had in the recent (or not so recent) past.

I would include in this group the following schools (in alphabetic order): Alpharetta, Brookwood, Centennial, Central Gwinnett, Chattahoochee, and Walton. Other schools could make some waves like Grayson and Norcross, but it is too early to know for sure. Hopefully, all of these schools will compete in as many tournaments as possible this year in order to improve throughout the year.

This issue of not competing in a lot of tournaments has been one of the main obstacles for GA teams competing regionally and nationally at the highest levels in my opinion. The quality of students in the South is certainly comparable to other geographic regions that do well in quizbowl. However, there are few teams in GA that consistently go to 10 or more tournaments in a year or 1 (much less 2+) National Championships. I hope that as time goes on, this changes for the better in our state.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:42 pm

No new posts in 10 days on our state's thread. Maybe the ranking of Brookwood, Chattahoochee, and Walton as preseason top 50 teams will elicit some discussion?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:15 pm

Considering most of the participants are students and teachers, it probably has to do with school getting back in. Though it would be good to see more discussion. Addressing one of your previous posts, Mr. Rountree, I'm hoping that Alpharetta will increase its tournament attendance this year, as it did last year, as well as attend a national tournament. About the rankings, I think that Georgia teams are perennially underranked (as seen by Walton finishing fairly high at PACE after not getting ranked in the top 25 pre-Nationals poll), but that Fred is pretty fair in putting Walton and Chattahoochee at 32 and 33 going into the season. I think, though, that both teams (as well as Brookwood) have the potential to be much more highly ranked by the end of the season.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by cchiego » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:52 am

Year in and year out, Walton, Brookwood, and Chattahoochee are the big 3 in GA. Walton happens to have a particularly strong academic base to choose from (which can lead to inconsistency depending on who chooses to play), but there's no reason in particular for Bwood and Chatt to stay so strong unless you consider the impact of coaching and organization, which are both key. Both schools have excellent regimes in place to help train new players and make the most of the talent they have. Walton is more of a wild card; if there's a few strong players that decide to get good, they could outperform their in-state rivals or they could sink back to the rest of the pack. It's not to say that they don't have good coaching and a decent organization, but they don't churn out solid, well-rounded teams year-in and year-out like Bwood and Chatt.

Thus I think that Bwood and Chatt are underranked in the Morlan pre-season poll at this point because the statistics don't tell the full story of how good these teams and coaches are at training and upgrading talent. However, I don't think that any GA teams will be able to break into the top 10 nationally this year and possibly for several years in the future unless some things change within GA.

For all their benefits, strong organizations can be limiting in some respects. We've seen the emergence of superstar high school players elsewhere who get involved in the national circuit from early in their high school careers and almost carry on independently of their high schools. It seems the top schools in GA discourage this kind of interaction and few people from other schools seem to be aware of the existence of the larger quizbowl world. That prevents the development of the kind of superstars that you need to win a national championship. With players from other schools going to great lengths to improve, GA teams may be left behind when playing against these players at national tournaments.

I also think that the typical GA format and question difficulty level can be limiting to the top teams and players. I'd like to see more GA teams attend college tournaments since I think they would be able to compete at a high level and the questions would challenge them enough to help them at more difficult events like the NSC and HSNCT. It was good to see Chatt travel up to the Mid-Atlantic for tougher opponents last year (apologies if any other GA team did this and I didn't notice). That kind of seasoning is important when you're facing a murderer's row of top teams in the upper NSC brackets or in the later rounds at HSNCT.

So I conclude with the actual predictions:
Walton could surprise again, but I'll say they'll have a down year after an up year last year. Central Gwinnett is always poised for breaking into the big 3, but I haven't seen any really strong players from there consistently lead their team to victory against the top teams. I like for Alpharetta improving a great deal if William continues to practice on his own and gets his team to play more often. They could be candidates for starting out slow but getting much better by the 2nd semester. I'll go out on a limb predict that Brookwood will triumph over Chatt more often than not next year due to having a stronger "bench" (i.e. younger players) and desire for revenge after last year's loss at state. I'd also like to see what Centennial can do since I know they've had a solid JV team for the past few years.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:33 pm

Chris:

You made many good observations about Georgia. IN 5A, I see Walton, Chattahoochee, and Alpharetta squaring off next March at State with Central Gwinnett, Centennial, Norcross, and Brookwood fighting to step into that top 4 arena.

I will say this: I have never had a player on one of my teams ask me about going to play in a college tournament. Nor has any Brookwood player asked for a Brookwood team to enter a college competition. It just has not been an issue at Brookwood.

I will also say this: there are many more GA teams that know about the so-called "national circuit" and simply choose NOT to participate. I know this firsthand because I speak with GA coaches quite a bit during each competition year. Prior to about 2002, GA had several teams who made appearances at Nationals and interregional events. In every year since then, that participation has become less and less. I see that trend continuing as the"national ciurcuit" trends in content of questions continues (and some other issues as well). I predict that soon (in next 2-3 years) you'll only see GA teams at NAQT Nationals and then only 1-3 schools in any given year.

I look forward to playing at Kennesaw State on September 12 to get the first view of how our teams stack up against each other.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:50 pm

jrbarry wrote:I see that trend continuing as the"national ciurcuit" trends in content of questions continues (and some other issues as well).
Meaning, exactly, what?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:34 pm

jrbarry wrote:I predict that soon (in next 2-3 years) you'll only see GA teams at NAQT Nationals and then only 1-3 schools in any given year.
That would be a shame.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:32 pm

jrbarry wrote:I will say this: I have never had a player on one of my teams ask me about going to play in a college tournament. Nor has any Brookwood player asked for a Brookwood team to enter a college competition. It just has not been an issue at Brookwood.
But how many know about college tournaments and the fact that high schoolers can play (and even win) in them?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by kayli » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:15 pm

Kamen Rider Punch Hopper wrote:
jrbarry wrote:I will say this: I have never had a player on one of my teams ask me about going to play in a college tournament. Nor has any Brookwood player asked for a Brookwood team to enter a college competition. It just has not been an issue at Brookwood.
But how many know about college tournaments and the fact that high schoolers can play (and even win) in them?
(Sorry for jumping in here seeing as I'm not from Georgia but...) What!?! We can!?! What are the rules on this?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:18 pm

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:
Kamen Rider Punch Hopper wrote:
jrbarry wrote:I will say this: I have never had a player on one of my teams ask me about going to play in a college tournament. Nor has any Brookwood player asked for a Brookwood team to enter a college competition. It just has not been an issue at Brookwood.
But how many know about college tournaments and the fact that high schoolers can play (and even win) in them?
(Sorry for jumping in here seeing as I'm not from Georgia but...) What!?! We can!?! What are the rules on this?
I know that high schoolers played at ACF Fall, Winter, and Nationals, as well as Chicago Open, MUT, and VCU Open at the very least. There are many other examples.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by at your pleasure » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:28 pm

Rules on high schoolers at college and open tournaments:
1. Register.
2. Pay registration fees, less applicable discounts.
3. Play quizbowl.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:18 am

Some Chattahoochee players have played at a few college tournaments in the past couple years, but it has been a rarity for the most part. I think many high school kids in this area do know about college tournaments and either don't want to go, can't go because they don't have the money or means to travel, or are scared off by the competition. There are probably some other reasons that I have not mentioned as well.

I also believe the amount of active college teams in this part of the country pales in comparison to that of other places where you can drive an hour in any direction and play at a dozen different college tournaments. We simply don't have that luxury in the metro-Atlanta area. From my school, GA Tech is 45 minutes away, UGA is 1 hour away, Clemson is 1 hour 45 minutes away, UTC is 2 hours away, USC is 2 hours 30 minutes away, and those are just about the only college teams that host tournaments around here, and not all of them even do that on a consistent basis.

The more interesting topic to me is not the number or college tournaments that a high schooler plays in, but Chris's belief in the need of a super-star to win a national championship. I find this curious as I have not seen any recent example of a super-star winning any national championship. Every really good player I have seen recently has had at least 1 other person to complement him in order to win at the highest levels of competition: Shantanu had Adam, Henry had Neeraj, Phil and Naren had each other, etc. In fact, the super-star "teams" that I have seen didn't win any national championships: Daichi, Ike, Charles, etc. I am not taking anything from those super players; instead, I am saying that having a super-star doesn't win national championships. In contrast, teams from Dorman composed of 3-4 very good players competed at the highest levels of competition and came within a blown "time" call of winning the HSNCT this year, and 2 years ago they came within an odd playoff structure of playing for the national championship at PACE. I think the Team concept needs to be emphasized, otherwise, why should we continue to play with 4 players?

Similar to Mr. Barry, I, too, see the trend at many tournaments of asking more college-level questions as a potential limiting factor of quizbowl in general. This extends well beyond the reaches of the SE based upon my conversations with several coaches and players outside my area. If the trend continues, I could also see more and more teams going to the HSNCT (or Chip!) instead of the NSC, eventually making PACE's tournament a "who's best in the mid-Atlantic" rather than a true national championship. This would be frustrating to say the least.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by vcuEvan » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:47 am

RountreeCHS wrote: Similar to Mr. Barry, I, too, see the trend at many tournaments of asking more college-level questions as a potential limiting factor of quizbowl in general. This extends well beyond the reaches of the SE based upon my conversations with several coaches and players outside my area. If the trend continues, I could also see more and more teams going to the HSNCT (or Chip!) instead of the NSC, eventually making PACE's tournament a "who's best in the mid-Atlantic" rather than a true national championship. This would be frustrating to say the least.
I think the reason you see the mid-Atlantic do well at a national level is because the teams there compete at that level. Teams like Dorman and State College actually want to do well nationally. If prominent leaders in Georgia quizbowl publicly state that they view nationals as a reward for succeeding at the state level, other less experienced coaches will follow suit. The NSC and the HSNCT will continue to reward the teams that want to win them the most, instead of teams with provincial attitudes.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:54 am

RountreeCHS wrote:Similar to Mr. Barry, I, too, see the trend at many tournaments of asking more college-level questions as a potential limiting factor of quizbowl in general. This extends well beyond the reaches of the SE based upon my conversations with several coaches and players outside my area. If the trend continues, I could also see more and more teams going to the HSNCT (or Chip!) instead of the NSC, eventually making PACE's tournament a "who's best in the mid-Atlantic" rather than a true national championship. This would be frustrating to say the least.
Eliott you made some awesome points but i particularly want to emphasize my thoughts on your final one. I could not agree with more with the above statement.

Look, i understand trying to differentiate the great teams from the really great teams, and good teams from great teams... but why is it that "good quizbowl" has had this sudden trend of thinking that multiple teams hitting 25ppb is unacceptable? Or even for one team to hit this number? I'm not going to put the National tournaments in this group as i know they're supposed to have the hardest questions of the year.

One of the fears i've gained in the last year as i've read over every packet from HSAPQ and NAQT that i can get my hands on is that HSAPQ in particular is going to start stretching the bounds of what is tossupable, as i already started to notice in packets. No, i don't think that the canon should be stuck on traditional easy answers, but the amount of acceptable tossup answers should not be increasing by 50% each year.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by cchiego » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:57 am

Sure, I should qualify the "superstar" announcement by adding that it's often teams as a whole or several players on teams that commit to this kind of hard work. In fact, I remember scrimmaging against the Whitman players at some HSNCT a few years ago and watching in amazement as they took notes on insanely hard Jerry Vinokurov tournament questions. I also won't easily forget losing to a team from Maggie Walker composed primarily I believe of underclassmen at a college tournament. This is why I think especially that the strong programs in GA would get very powerful very quickly if consistently challenged to perform above and beyond the high school canon as a team.

I don't think that a lack of college tournaments in the area is a problem. Last year, UGA held ACF Winter and the SCT and Tech held Penn Bowl and ACF Regionals plus UTC held a few tournaments. I bet many GA high school teams would've been quite competitive at any of them (I don't doubt a team like Chatt or Bwood would be able to win one) and they would've been excellent learning experiences.
jrbarry wrote:I predict that soon (in next 2-3 years) you'll only see GA teams at NAQT Nationals and then only 1-3 schools in any given year.
That would be a bad thing for the Southeast in general. Contrary to the stereotypes, the top educational talent in the southeast is on par with anywhere else in the country and that's reflected in the consistently strong performances put in by southern teams. But rather than retreat to regionalism, I think the solution is doing what Dorman does: using a strong program structure to mold players into being able to take on all comers all over the country at the toughest tournaments.
Last edited by cchiego on Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Terrible Shorts Depot » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:05 am

RountreeCHS wrote:The more interesting topic to me is not the number or college tournaments that a high schooler plays in, but Chris's belief in the need of a super-star to win a national championship. I find this curious as I have not seen any recent example of a super-star winning any national championship. Every really good player I have seen recently has had at least 1 other person to complement him in order to win at the highest levels of competition: Shantanu had Adam, Henry had Neeraj, Phil and Naren had each other, etc. In fact, the super-star "teams" that I have seen didn't win any national championships: Daichi, Ike, Charles, etc. I am not taking anything from those super players; instead, I am saying that having a super-star doesn't win national championships. In contrast, teams from Dorman composed of 3-4 very good players competed at the highest levels of competition and came within a blown "time" call of winning the HSNCT this year, and 2 years ago they came within an odd playoff structure of playing for the national championship at PACE. I think the Team concept needs to be emphasized, otherwise, why should we continue to play with 4 players?
I'd like to note that Ike did indeed win a national title this year: ACF D2. Also, who is Charles?

edit: i'm stoopid
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:21 am

Charles wrote: Who is Charles?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:32 am

Journey to the Planets wrote:
Charles wrote: Who is Charles?
Don't empty-quote outside AHAN. Also, you may have heard of CHARLES DEES. He posts sometimes.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by at your pleasure » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:40 am

GA Tech is 45 minutes away, UGA is 1 hour away, Clemson is 1 hour 45 minutes away, UTC is 2 hours away, USC is 2 hours 30 minutes away
I have to say, none of those seem like horrendous distances-all but USC is a more-or-less reasonable day trip, and even that's possible to do in a day if you don't mind a long drive. Also. if people are going to predict the disappearance of a GA nationals presence, I predict that(if I may paraphrase Issac Bashevis Singer), GA's national presence will stumble blissfully on, unaware that it is supposed to be dead.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:42 am

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:
Journey to the Planets wrote:
Charles wrote: Who is Charles?
Don't empty-quote outside AHAN. Also, you may have heard of CHARLES DEES. He posts sometimes.
Sorry, I thought that Mr. Rountree was talking about the Class of '09 (what with Daichi and Ike).
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Matt Weiner » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:15 pm

It looks to me like major tournaments are getting easier every year--the 32nd-place team in this past year's NSC scored 347 points per game, and the numbers show that around 600 points were being picked up in every NSC round, top to bottom. Looking at the NSC and HSNCT quesion sets from this past year as compared to, say, the 2001 incarnations of those tournaments, it's clear that both groups have learned a lot about how to write questions that good high school players actually know as opposed to the old strategy that resulted a lot of dead questions due to taking a weaker hand on difficulty outliers.

Of course, it also looks to me like certain people, teams, and regions are upset at the fading role of speed arithmetic questions in quizbowl and their replacement with real math, the use of real pyramidal questions, the use of questions that don't reward list memorization, and so on. Since they know they can't actually say they like those things without being dismissed, they can hide behind the allegation that a tournament is too hard, which people seem free to just assert and others are always afraid to disagree with, even when the objective numerical evidence says they are wrong.

Similarly, I don't know if HSAPQ or NAQT think it's "unacceptable" for multiple teams to score 25 points per bonus; I do know that many teams did just that on both HSAPQ and NAQT sets last year. But I wouldn't want to contradict anyone's right to just say anything that comes into their head.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Ethnic history of the Vilnius region » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:08 pm

RountreeCHS wrote: I also believe the amount of active college teams in this part of the country pales in comparison to that of other places where you can drive an hour in any direction and play at a dozen different college tournaments. We simply don't have that luxury in the metro-Atlanta area. From my school, GA Tech is 45 minutes away, UGA is 1 hour away, Clemson is 1 hour 45 minutes away, UTC is 2 hours away, USC is 2 hours 30 minutes away, and those are just about the only college teams that host tournaments around here, and not all of them even do that on a consistent basis.
Although Chris and Douglas rightly pointed out that there was no dearth of good college tournaments within an easy drive of the Atlanta metro area last year, I think Coach Roundtree's point is well founded in that, traditionally, there has been a lack of college tournaments in the Atlanta area. Thanks in part to the work of Chris, last year was a very good year indeed for college tournaments in and around Atlanta, but Georgia Tech hadn't hosted anything in a while prior to last season, and Emory hasn't had a program in years and hasn't hosted a college tournament in well over a decade. I hope last year's positive trend of Tech and UGA hosting good tournaments continues this year, and that Clemson is able to host events this year as well, and I'm sure high school teams will be quite welcome at these tournaments.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:53 pm

Matt W, wrote:

"Of course, it also looks to me like certain people, teams, and regions are upset at the fading role of speed arithmetic questions in quizbowl and their replacement with real math, the use of real pyramidal questions, the use of questions that don't reward list memorization, and so on. Since they know they can't actually say they like those things without being dismissed, they can hide behind the allegation that a tournament is too hard, which people seem free to just assert and others are always afraid to disagree with, even when the objective numerical evidence says they are wrong."

Wow! More "mind reading" from Matt Weiner. How could anyone KNOW what you posted above unless he or she can read minds and lots of minds? You certainly have no empirical evidence or stat for those assertions though you suggest in the same post that empirical data should be used by people who believe that some tournament was hard. Of course you can assert whatever you wish here as is your right. But you cannot KNOW if these things are really what motivates any one person or team or region.

With the remote possibility existing that you might be referring, at least in part, to me with your assertions, I will give you empirical evidence that you may use for future reference, should you wish: (1) I think all kinds of computational questions are appropriate for high school questions and (2) I think learning some types of information from a list is OK and not a slap in the face of so-called "good quiz bowl."

There you have it! Someone comes clean and admits in a public forum that he believes that learning some types of information by studying lists is OK. I expect the good quiz bowl inquisition to bring me up on charges soon! :-)
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:02 pm

jrbarry wrote:Wow! More "mind reading" from Matt Weiner. How could anyone KNOW what you posted above unless he or she can read minds and lots of minds? You certainly have no empirical evidence or stat for those assertions though you suggest in the same post that empirical data should be used by people who believe that some tournament was hard. Of course you can assert whatever you wish here as is your right. But you cannot KNOW if these things are really what motivates any one person or team or region.
Well, a sane strategy when your reason for disliking the mainstream isn't accepted by very many people at all is to protest the mainstream for a reason that a lot of people will leap to assume is right. So instead of coming out and saying "it is bad that the mainstream doesn't privilege third-grade math and mindless binary associations over real intellectual curiosity," one attacks the mainstream for being too hard, which 1) a lot of people might believe on hearing, instead of looking at the facts and realizing is wrong; 2) is a criticism that accepted on principle if true, as opposed to one that is rejected on principle if true; 3) might effect changes that accomplish what you actually desire. Matt's just assuming that you're employing this best-available strategy.

I don't criticize your technique; you're in a difficult position since everyone disagrees with you. It's the only rhetorical option available if you don't want to abandon your position.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:54 pm

Even if there are some differences in belief between a one person thinks and mainstream quizbowl ideology, there is no good reason to completely disavow anything that isn't exactly like your own familiar brand of quizbowl. There is not one state organization that I can think of that has rules and questions exactly like NAQT or PACE, but you don't see entire states like Kentucky, Illinois, Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, Virginia, or anywhere else with unique local formats refusing to participate in the accepted national mainstream quizbowl format.

One good thing about national tournaments are that they are above each individual state organization and usually achieve a format that allows teams from all areas compete with success. Take last year's HSNCT for example, the top 10 teams came from these respective states: Delaware, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Washington DC, Virginia, Maryland, Georgia, Minnesota, and Illinois. Two teams from California and a team from Texas were among those that finished tied for 11th.

Threatening that your entire state is going to withdraw from mainstream quizbowl and isolate itself unless everyone adopts your ideas on question content is unreasonable, and if Georgia teams actually do that we will be saddened to see it happen. The national format will never be one acceptable to an individual state because it is a NATIONAL format. Plenty of teams from states with formats as out of the mainstream as Georgia are competing on a nationwide basis, and Georgia is competing nationwide too. If you are a team with the talent, funding, and time to compete on the national circuit, then you would be unfair to yourself to not do so.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:57 pm

Wow! More "mind reading" from Matt Weiner. How could anyone KNOW what you posted above unless he or she can read minds and lots of minds? You certainly have no empirical evidence or stat for those assertions though you suggest in the same post that empirical data should be used by people who believe that some tournament was hard. Of course you can assert whatever you wish here as is your right. But you cannot KNOW if these things are really what motivates any one person or team or region.
This point would be one I normally would agree with you on, except you defeat it by then explicitly saying that Matt's inferences were correct.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:44 pm

Nick:

GA teams are not threatening anything. The number of GA teams at nationals has dwindled in recent years. I do not see that trend reversing itself. That is my prediction. As always, I could be wrong.

Of course, Brookwood (the team over which I have some say so) DOES come to nationals and has for many years. I hope we earn the right to continue coming in my last few years in coaching.

Andy:

What is mainstream or not mainstream in quiz bowl is open to debate. If one assumes that the people who post here frequently represent the mainstream of high school quiz bowl, then your criticism of my two ideas about computational questions and learning from lists are dead on. I happen to think that there are many more divergent ideas about what high school quiz bowl should be than what we who post here see as consensus. Even the two national groups who sponsor national championships (NAQT and PACE) do not seem to agree on the subjects I spoke on in my post above. NAQT continues to have computational questions in theoir sets and at Nationals and NAQT features lists on their website. So, apparently, I am not the only one who believes as I do on those two subjects.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:18 pm

jrbarry wrote:Even the two national groups who sponsor national championships (NAQT and PACE) do not seem to agree on the subjects I spoke on in my post above. NAQT continues to have computational questions in theoir sets and at Nationals and NAQT features lists on their website. So, apparently, I am not the only one who believes as I do on those two subjects.
NAQT will no longer have math computation at the HSNCT and now offers sets with the math computation taken out.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:30 pm

jrbarry wrote:What is mainstream or not mainstream in quiz bowl is open to debate. If one assumes that the people who post here frequently represent the mainstream of high school quiz bowl, then your criticism of my two ideas about computational questions and learning from lists are dead on. I happen to think that there are many more divergent ideas about what high school quiz bowl should be than what we who post here see as consensus. Even the two national groups who sponsor national championships (NAQT and PACE) do not seem to agree on the subjects I spoke on in my post above. NAQT continues to have computational questions in theoir sets and at Nationals and NAQT features lists on their website. So, apparently, I am not the only one who believes as I do on those two subjects.
NAQT has openly acknowledged that they include computation in their sets largely because coaches seem to demand it and they would lose business otherwise. I don't think anyone in NAQT believes that their 40% conversion rate on computation tossups is acceptable considering their stated targets, which are of course far, far higher. So actually the two major national championships, as well as the two major question providers (NAQT and HSAPQ) do agree.

Of course you're not the only one to disagree with these national organizations. Other coaches who want their teams' skills to be rewarded (because you're a teacher, I don't honestly believe that you seek to reward high schoolers for third grade accomplishments; because you're a coach, I do honestly believe that you want to win), even at the expense of the academic significance of the activity, also support the inclusion of computation tossups.

Also, my argument touched on your likely motives for posting and that Matt probably had inferred them too, rather than deserving your "mindreading" barb--I wasn't saying that that is, in fact, the mainstream. All that matters is that you know that those who post regularly here think that that's the mainstream--so when you communicate with them, you appeal to a principle they believe in (questions should be accessible) rather than one they don't (sets should reward x, y, and z) in order to portend that Georgia will stop attending NSC in favor of the "easier" HSNCT.

I don't care what the mainstream in quizbowl is, or whether people in different regions have decided whether computation questions should be in quizbowl. That doesn't matter at all. What matters is that putting computation in quizbowl tournaments is wrong, whether state x or coaches organization y believes that that is so. Putting computation in quizbowl perverts the academic values of the game. I don't care if your informal poll of the region informs me that people think otherwise: they are, objectively speaking, promoting the wrong values. If they want to play their game, fine; call it Mathcounts and leave people who want to learn about math, and science, and history, and literature--and the budgets of their quizbowl teams--alone.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by at your pleasure » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:35 pm

NAQT will no longer have math computation at the HSNCT and now offers sets with the math computation taken out.
I disagree with Mr. Berry on most of what he says, but there will be a limited amount of computation in HSNCT. There will be no computation tossups, and the overall amount of computation will be probably be reduced somewhat, but it will still be present. However, given the fact that they were somewhat agnostic about whether computational bonuses will be present, it's clear to me that at least some in NAQT see this move as a halfway house to a computation free HSNCT.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by cvdwightw » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:25 pm

Unlike a whole bunch of other people with high post counts, I don't often post in threads for regions other than my own, but I feel this is important:

There has long been a perception on this board that Georgia high school quizbowl thinks that it is somehow "special" and does not see a need for "reforms" that may be going on in most other parts of the nation. The biggest evidence that this is not a misrepresentation of how Georgia actually feels is the decrease in nationals participation by Georgia schools.

As cited by Mr. Barry, up until about 2003 or so, Georgia schools were regularly found at all nationals, from the "good" (NSC, HSNCT) to the "bad" (ASCN, NAC), and at high-profile non-national tournaments that attracted teams from a variety of states. After 2003, Georgia schools were slowly disappearing from all inter-regional tournaments, some at a higher rate than others. Since Georgia is one of those "traditional" states and as such rarely changes anything without an explicit need to change, it stands to reason that something must have happened nationally to start to drive Georgia schools away. I have listed ten potential reasons why this might be so, and I hope that Mr. Barry or Mr. Rountree or someone else "in the know" about Georgia might be able to respond to these possibilities with an accurate description of whether or not coaches feel this way. Specifically, I'd like to note that these are not meant to be facts, but rather speculations about reasons why Georgia teams no longer regularly attend nationals that I'd like either confirmed, qualified, or denied.
  • Georgia is no longer the standard bearer for good quizbowl
    If I remember my history correctly, Georgia was among the first states/regions to make the transition to pyramidal quizbowl. As such, we can say that at one point they were among the leaders in the push for good quizbowl. With most regions now accepting pyramidal questions as a tenet of good quizbowl, other areas have become areas of contention for good vs bad quizbowl. In particular, on the debate over computational math, and the use of head-to-head as a valid tiebreaker, Georgia holds views that are commonly considered "backward" by many in the national circuit (the latter in the face of significant statistical evidence). As such, Georgia is no longer viewed in the same light as the mid-Atlantic as a beacon of good quizbowl. Georgia teams do not want to attend tournaments with teams that may look down on them or disparage their view of quizbowl.
  • Mid-level Georgia teams no longer feel they can compete on the national level
    Efforts of NAQT and PACE to attract new areas have resulted in the best teams from Illinois, Missouri, Ohio, New York, and Minnesota regularly competing for playoff spots at major national tournaments (I'm leaving out Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and California, since although participation from those states has markedly increased, top Georgia teams were always competing against the best team(s) from those states anyway at nationals). While the best Georgia teams remain able to make a splash on the national stage, mid-level Georgia teams feel crowded out by these other good teams. Since they cannot compete on the national level, they feel it is not worth their time to attempt to do so.
  • Stricter qualification rules have resulted in fewer Georgia teams able to qualify for nationals
    The increase in popularity of HSNCT and NSC has resulted in stricter qualification policies. Since Georgia tournaments are often dominated by a few programs, many schools that might have qualified under old procedures no longer qualify and do not wish to enter as a wild card.
  • Due to pressures from the national circuit, NAQT has moved in directions Georgia does not like
    Since its inception, NAQT has constantly been pulled in two directions: one by the elite teams who wish to see something approximating their view of "real" quizbowl, the other by bad teams from quizbowl backwaters who complain that the questions are too long and too hard. One or both sides is becoming so vocal that NAQT is paying more attention to those sides and not as much attention to loyal silent majority customer Georgia; Georgia does not have a better option for state series questions, but Georgia teams do have the option not to attend HSNCT.
  • The national circuit has become inextricably linked to the college circuit
    In many places, this would not be a problem. For instance, when I played in high school, it was not unreasonable for non-NAQT Southern California tournaments to be open to both high school and college teams. However, in many places, individuals who have no direct contact with the high school educational system are often viewed as being in charge of quizbowl in certain states (I find this argument particularly weak, not only because I'm one of those people, but because my local school board has no direct contact with the high school educational system). In other places, organizations founded by college players directly compete against the entrenched establishment of high school coaches. Georgia has a reflexive fear about joining a circuit in which so much is out of the hands of high school "educators."
  • Certain non-Georgians associated with the national circuit have become so ridiculously aggressive that Georgia wants nothing to do with the circuit as a whole
    This board reopened in April 2003. There were two basic unwritten rules: don't post anything in support of morally objectionable "quizbowl," and don't be an idiot (the latter of those was later codified in the original AHAN rules). As hard as it is to believe, we once (almost) had a decent thread on ASCA, and I'm almost positive that at least one of the non-canceled ASCNs got through an entire tournament update thread without someone interjecting about how terrible ASCN questions are (found it!). When something sucked, people argued from experience that it sucked, instead of repeating the same 5000 secondhand (thirdhand?) arguments over and over again. If something sucked, but there were things that were good, people at least gave credit for the good things before launching into full-scale criticism. Now it seems like I can't venture into half of the high school section without someone verbally attacking (occasionally ad hominem) people who support, or appear to support, views that do not perfectly match his precious concept of good quizbowl. Some of us realize that these good quizbowl attack dogs (who knows, maybe I'm one of them?) really are well-meaning and we deal with it as best we can, because we have the ability to effect change in our areas and the stone skins to be able to filter out the message from the vitriol. Most Georgia coaches only know these people from their Internet personalities, view them as representative of the entire national community, and run as fast as they can in the other direction.
  • The national "accepted" distributions are too radically different from the Georgia educational curriculum
    Regardless of whether it is an ACF or NAQT distribution, social science and geography are divested from history and math is considered a part of science. Elective courses such as arts, non-academic courses such as sports, and/or subjects that do not clearly correspond to courses, such as current events, are given disproportionate representation in the national distributions compared to their value in the Georgia state curriculum. The Georgia state goal of testing "who knows the most about the Georgia curriculum" is thus incompatible with the national distribution, so the national distribution is viewed as inferior and not worthwhile to spend time learning.
  • Questions from national providers are just too darn hard
    Regardless of what statistics Matt Weiner wants to throw out, the national high school game has been seeing a trickle-down effect in what is considered "accessible" to the high schooler come from what is considered "easy" in the college game. The fact remains that questions at both the regular and national levels have gotten harder, and if the conversion rates don't show this, it is because the average team has gotten better. However, the improvement rates of most Georgia teams lag behind the rate at which questions are getting harder, and thus they are insulted when other teams dismiss their complaints that the questions are too hard.
  • Georgia truly does have a (possibly misguided) sense of regionalism and feels national competitions are a waste of time
    In many areas, success is measured by two barometers: attending a major national tournament, and doing well at a major national tournament. In Georgia, performance at the local and state levels is far more important than anything done at a national level; Brookwood could win HSNCT and fewer than five Georgia coaches would care.
  • Georgia truly does have a (possibly misguided) sense of regionalism and feels that their ways are superior
    Any suggestions about how Georgia can improve are met with automatic disdain, because those Yankee imperialists don't know that since Georgia's been doing the same thing for thirty years, it must be working. Rather than adapt to what is going on nationally, Georgia is so convinced of its superiority that it clings to its traditions while the national circuit leaves it behind. Accordingly, Georgia has no desire to mingle with these inferior people and their impure form of quizbowl.
I really do hope that the true reasons for Georgia's disappearance from the national circuit are somewhere in that list of ten possible reasons, and that we can identify the problems and work out mutually beneficial solutions before Georgia experiences a near-complete break with the rest of the circuit.
Dwight Wynne
socalquizbowl.org
UC Irvine 2008-2013; UCLA 2004-2007; Capistrano Valley High School 2000-2003

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AlphaQuizBowler
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:49 pm

cvdwightw wrote: [*]Mid-level Georgia teams no longer feel they can compete on the national level
Efforts of NAQT and PACE to attract new areas have resulted in the best teams from Illinois, Missouri, Ohio, New York, and Minnesota regularly competing for playoff spots at major national tournaments (I'm leaving out Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and California, since although participation from those states has markedly increased, top Georgia teams were always competing against the best team(s) from those states anyway at nationals). While the best Georgia teams remain able to make a splash on the national stage, mid-level Georgia teams feel crowded out by these other good teams. Since they cannot compete on the national level, they feel it is not worth their time to attempt to do so.
I would hope that this is not true. Coming from a mid-level Georgia team, I am looking forward to attending nationals. While I harbor no illusions about beating Maggie Walker or TJ, I don't think that the fact that my school's from Georgia means that we can't be competitive, and I very much doubt that any team in Georgia does.
[*]Certain non-Georgians associated with the national circuit have become so ridiculously aggressive that Georgia wants nothing to do with the circuit as a whole
This board reopened in April 2003. There were two basic unwritten rules: don't post anything in support of morally objectionable "quizbowl," and don't be an idiot (the latter of those was later codified in the original AHAN rules). As hard as it is to believe, we once (almost) had a decent thread on ASCA, and I'm almost positive that at least one of the non-canceled ASCNs got through an entire tournament update thread without someone interjecting about how terrible ASCN questions are (found it!). When something sucked, people argued from experience that it sucked, instead of repeating the same 5000 secondhand (thirdhand?) arguments over and over again. If something sucked, but there were things that were good, people at least gave credit for the good things before launching into full-scale criticism. Now it seems like I can't venture into half of the high school section without someone verbally attacking (occasionally ad hominem) people who support, or appear to support, views that do not perfectly match his precious concept of good quizbowl. Some of us realize that these good quizbowl attack dogs (who knows, maybe I'm one of them?) really are well-meaning and we deal with it as best we can, because we have the ability to effect change in our areas and the stone skins to be able to filter out the message from the vitriol. Most Georgia coaches only know these people from their Internet personalities, view them as representative of the entire national community, and run as fast as they can in the other direction.
I think that this is a large factor in Georgia teams (at least those who read the boards) turning away from the national circuit. Every time that Georgia quizbowl becomes the whipping boy for another MATHCOMP debate, the people supporting good quizbowl make themselves look like jerks. It's already been made clear that most posters on this board don't like comp math and that Mr. Barry does, and that point doesn't need to be rehashed every time he posts on here.
William
Alpharetta High School '11
Harvard '15

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at your pleasure
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by at your pleasure » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:23 pm

I think that this is a large factor in Georgia teams (at least those who read the boards) turning away from the national circuit. Every time that Georgia quizbowl becomes the whipping boy for another MATHCOMP debate, the people supporting good quizbowl make themselves look like jerks. It's already been made clear that most posters on this board don't like comp math and that Mr. Barry does, and that point doesn't need to be rehashed every time he posts on here.
To be prefectly honest, you have a good point. In good quizbowl's defense, and I admit this is a weak defense, we sort of get so tired of the biannual "I think being able to calculate the amount of paint needed to paint a hexagonal room in your head in five seconds is better than being able to talk intelligently about Gabriel Garcia Marquez" thread that we forget to be polite when someone who's actually reasonable wonders why there's no MATHCOMP in most good quizbowl. Also, can someone clarify why we even bother with the ritual MATHCOMP debate instead of just linking to a random MATHCOMP thread whenever the topic comes up?
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Charbroil » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:29 am

I'm also one of those people who tries to avoid posting in other areas' regional threads, but I do have a question, Coach Berry. I don't know how much influence you have in Georgia, but since your team is consistently competitive both nationally and in Georgia, I imagine that you have at least some. Thus, when you discuss Quiz Bowl with other Georgia coaches, do you promote attendance at national tournaments? Since you do lead your team to such tournaments, I would guess that you see something good about them, but do you convey that positive aspect of nationals which you see (whatever it might be) to your fellow coaches? I would hope you do, if only because I would think that it's common sense that a national tournament is more prestigious than a state tournament and that if Georgia teams have forgotten the need to be nationally competitive (and this applies to anything, obviously), that they should remember that.

The same applies to you, Coach Rountree--do you promote nationals to your colleagues?

After all, while there are good reasons to complain about trends in national Quiz Bowl, it is worth asking why in most other states (including mine, Missouri), the number of teams which are choosing to compete nationally is increasing, while in Georgia, it's decreasing. The argument that the national distribution/national standards of difficulty are to blame for Georgia's decline on the national stage doesn't hold water in that context, unless you want to say that Georgians are inherently incapable of rising to those standards (which is, obviously, absurd). Nevertheless, given that other states are choosing to compete (and be competitive) at Nationals, it's worth asking whether the problem is with the national tournaments themselves, or with the beliefs of Georgia teams which don't want to compete nationally.
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:30 am

charbroil:

I am not sure how much influence I have in GA either. However, I have consistently promoted nationals participation among GA and other SE area teams over the years and will continue to do so. Using NAQT Nationals as a reference point, when I am at nationals every year I see a myriad of teams competing there that I know several GA teams could beat had those GA teams showed-up for nationals. It seems that many GA teams feel only the very top teams in GA should be competing at nationals. And there are other more mundain (time, money, etc) reasons people might cite for not going to nationals.

Lest some here think that Georgia is retiring into its own little quiz bowl world, I can assure you that GA has tournaments every year where we play on questions that are not that different than what NAQT and PACE have used at their nationals. We play pyramidal questions and academic questions. We play NAQT sets straight or modified. We have teams from 5-7 states at many of our tournaments. And we still have teams at nationals though not as many as 10 years ago.
J.R. Barry
Retired teacher and former coach

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