New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

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New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:48 pm

Princeton University, in conjunction with Rutgers University, will be hosting this year's NAQT State Championship for the State of New Jersey. The tournament will be held on Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 on the Princeton Campus.

The packet will be IS-92.

Fees:
$60 for the first team from a school.
$45 for each additional team
-$5 Discount per Buzzer System
-$10 per Experienced Reader/Moderator, if we require additional help. Email me if you're interested in this.

The last day to register without incurring a late fee, Saturday Jan 30th, has passed.

If you have questions about the date selection, as it is early, see this thread: viewtopic.php?p=159347#p159347

Registered teams (28 total):

St. Joseph - 2
Seton Hall Prep - 4
Bergen - 4
MAST - 2
Livingston - 2
Millburn - 2
Moorestown Friends - 3
Millburn - 2
Pingry - 3
High Tech - 3
East Brunswick - 2
Ranney - 1



Please e-mail dhumphre (at) princeton.edu for registration and/or any questions.
Last edited by Youse Da Force on Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:45 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by TheCzarMan » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:59 pm

Edward Powers wrote:Bumped just to remind Jersey schools that this State Championship tournament will be here before we know it, so hopefully all interested parties will register ASAP, with the result that we have a highly competitive, broadly representative and very deep field, forcing whoever earns this year's state banner to truly earn it.
I wouldn't be so sure that will happen given this date. I know for a fact a lot of the public schools will not be able to come because of the holiday, so its a question of how many teams the Private Schools can bring along in that case.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:07 pm

Nick---naturally I hope you are incorrect about public schools---it is a STATE CHAMPIONSHIP, after all, and there has been an effort on and off all year, as you well know, to find a willing host & a date from somewhere within the NJ Quizbowl Community. For the longest time NO ONE stepped forward---in fact, there was nary a discussion on the NJ thread on this site, nor, as far as I know, on the njacademicoaches site either.

Then about 5 or 6 weeks or so ago the Princeton & Rutgers Academic Teams finally came forward & were gracious enough to offer to host at the Princeton campus, and originally selected April 17th as the competition's date---but there was a thread almost simultaneously discussing the merits & demerits of selecting this specific date---and as a result of this discussion it was discovered there were probably only 2 truly viable dates left on the calendar given all of the other quizbowl activity already scheduled for the year---April 3rd and February 13th. So, the 13th was eventually chosen due to the early April religious celebrations.

At the time, presumably, every school interested had a chance to join in the discussion. But, perhaps you are correct---perhaps 2.5-3.5 months advanced notice is still not enough to inspire some teams, whether public or private, to discover if they can or wish to compete for a nationally recognized state championship which will earn its winner an automatic slot at nationals. If true, then maybe there will be no state championship this year---but if so, we will have no one to blame but ourselves for missing such a potentially great statewide competition, don't you think?

But this need not happen---all schools that really do care about quizbowl can take advantage of the current opportunity offered by the Princeton & Rutgers sponsors and find a way to sign up for the 13th of February. And unless someone out there has a better solution, it seems this will be Jersey's one & only certain chance to have a State NAQT Championship this year, given how the rest of this year's calendar shapes up for willing hosts and potential attendees. So, let's hope you are incorrect and that all schools, public and private, choose the "bird in the hand" rather than fruitlessly seek the two in the proverbial bush.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by raysaagar » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:05 am

Livingston's definitely interested, but right now, we don't have a coach to accompany us because of the break, so that's the one issue we are trying to work out right now.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:03 am

Any update on the field? Seems like only Seton Hall Prep & Saint Joe's have made any commitment and February 13 will be here before we know it. But perhaps you have registration information that is not yet posted here?
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by SHP Pirate » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:48 pm

SHP will definitely have two teams, two buzzers, and one reader. If the field permits, I would like to increase the registration to four teams.

- MTZ
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by Youse Da Force » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:53 pm

SHP Pirate wrote:SHP will definitely have two teams, two buzzers, and one reader. If the field permits, I would like to increase the registration to four teams.

- MTZ
Great. I'll put you down for 4 then, bringing the field to... 6. You can list it when you send us the copy of the registration form.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by gstoye » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:34 pm

Dan...

MAST will be sending either 2 or 3 teams, with one moderator and one buzzer system. I'll send the registration form as soon as I am sure which.


Thanks!
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by olsb25 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:59 pm

Apparently there have been rumors of this tournament's demise (which is news to us). In any case, we'd like to reassure everyone that this is still going ahead... this is only about a month away, so get those registrations in!
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by Guybo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:21 pm

Edward Powers wrote:-all schools that really do care about quizbowl can take advantage of the current opportunity offered by the Princeton & Rutgers sponsors and find a way to sign up for the 13th of February.
I have not come onto this site in quite a while but did beacuse I wanted to try and catch up on what is happening in the world of quizbowl in the NY/NJ area. I remember hearing that the state chamionship would be on February 13 and wanted to see the latest update. I received an email quite some time ago from the Princeton people asking input on the two possible dates mentioned- Feb. 13 and April 3- and replied that both were bad because Feb 13 is the first day of my school's and many public school's winter breaks and, of course, that April 3 was bad because, of course, Easter is the next day, it is the end of my school's "spring" break and that that weekend is often a family oriented holiday to many. Of course, I understand that no one was willing to host, it seemed, besides Princeton/Rutgers and I give them full credit for stepping up to the plate and being willing to host the State Championship.

In browsing the previous posts, I came across Mr. Powers' post from a month ago and, frankly, was offended that he believes that only those teams that "truly care" about quizbowl will come to this tournament. I have been a coach for about 10 years at Livingston HS and, as coaches, we are generally dedicated, caring, and underpaid for all that we do. We enjoy our players and want them to compete, learn and have fun. This is ostensibly why we do it. However, we also have personal lives, busy schedules, a teaching load and families and students who vie for our free time. Vacations are precious times for we teachers, as they are for any employee, and most teachers, like myself, and students alike want to spend it with their families. The idea that we do not care about quizbowl just because we are not able to go to an important tournament is ludicrous and naive. I have been absued by my wife over the years becausae she often thinks I put my quiz bowl students over my family. We all want to try and make every tournament work for everyone and I understand completely that it cannot always happen this way. It has nothing AT ALL to do with caring about quiz bowl. Perhaps this is not what Mr. Powers intended to say but it is what I took it to mean. Perhaps he would not have felt the same way about this if they had, in fact, chosen April 3 as the date. At this point, it seems that only Catholic schools, who have no break in February, have registered.

This being said, I have arranged with parents and students to send teams to the state tournament on February 13 at Princeton. Please put Livingston HS down for 2, perhaps 3 teams. Also, if you can send some sort of official registration form (which I need to process and arrange payment for the tournament) that would be great. I hope that the State Tournament will be a fun tournament for all involved and that more teams will be able to sign up to make it even better.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:28 pm

I meant no offense and I am sorry it was interpreted that way. All I meant was what you seem to have perceived---that only Princeton & Rutgers offered to host and the 13th of February was only one of the 2 dates available for them---the other being April 3rd---another tough date. As you also admitted, you have not been on the boards for a while, so you were catching up. However, a request for NJ Coaches & possible TD's to get together and find a suitable date as well as a suitable host was posted by me several times back in August, September & October, I believe, not only here but on the njacademic coaches site, so that we could have a great tournament that was attended by as many schools as possible. Sadly, that request fell on deaf ears until the Princeton & Rutgers students made their offer to host. So, perhaps you missed these requests from the very beginning of the season? If so, you missed the context of my remark, which in effect was really based on the following assumption about coaches like yourself---I knew from experience that you were a caring coach, so I assumed that somehow or other you and all the committed coaches like yourself who obviously care would somehow or other see the light and discover that the 13th, however difficult a date, was probably our one good chance to have a state championship this year, and thus such coaches would make sure that their teams would come. That is all. I was not trying to suggest that if for some reason you could not make it that you did not care. Nevertheless, my remarks were, I suppose, sufficiently ambiguous to lead to the kind of misunderstanding that led to your post---and for that I do apologize, for I do not come on these boards to offend anyone, for I have always enjoyed the collegiality & sportsmanship that is virtually universally displayed by the coaches and students I meet at competitions. So, Coach Rabner, I do apologize to you and to anyone else who felt insulted by my remarks---they were never intended to be invidious, and I trust you realize that by now. My real hope was and is a simple one: That we can have the best State Championship Tournament possible. That is all. And as things stand now, that hope seems like it will not be fulfilled. And, BTW---my school, a Catholic school, begins its Winter Break that weekend as well, and trust me, after 30 plus years of teaching, I understand every word you've written about the importance of such breaks for the mental health & well being of teachers, coaches & students. But I've said enough already, so I will stop here.
Last edited by Edward Powers on Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by Youse Da Force » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:05 am

Coach Rabner,

Thanks for letting me know you didn't get an email. I brought up the list of recipients of the email I sent out in Dec that officially announced the tournament. Your email is listed (unless you've changed it), which leads me to wonder if other coaches also suffered some interruption. That might explain the scarcity of responses (positive or negative).

Regardless, I'll put you down right now for 2 teams for now and mail you another copy of the registration form and information.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by Guybo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:02 am

I figured, Mr. Powers, that you probably did not intend to have that sentiment come across, though in reading it again, it does still feel that way. Nevertheless, sorry to go off on the post- I sometimes get fired up about things like this and, to my fault, let the world know how I feel. With so many things going on with me and the students and so hard to find $ for buses, fees, etc., (we wanted to go to HHH but a bus alone for the day would have cost around $400!) it's frustrating often to try and to make things work- with competitions, etc. -when one has to deal with money issues, all kinds of different schedules to work around, etc. Students and I really love qb (I, too, did it in HS many moons ago) and really want to make everything work but, of course, the quiz bowl kids almost always are the ones that are involved in everything and have crazy busy lives to try to fit the weekend, all day competitions into. As much as I love quiz bowl, with a (quasi) life and 2 little kids to spend time with, I have been tying to find another coach to groom and take over but for years I have found NO ONE who is willing to give up weekends and other time to dedicate to the team. I can hardly blame them, unfortunately, as it is a lot of personal time to give up.

In any case, Livingston HS hopes to see you and all NJ/NY quizbowlers at upcoming tournaments. Besides NJ States and our own tounament on 3/6, Livingston is planning to attend Bloomfield on 3/20, Chatham on 5/22 and perhaps one other in April, if schedules allow.

We are now 3 1/2 weeks from this competition. Any field update? Any other HS besides St Joes, MAST and SHP able to throw their hat into NJ States?
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:53 am

Re-reading the post myself, I see what you are referring to---something I had forgotten---some sarcasm directed at "Czarman" who waited 3 months to respond to a request to be a TD for States way back in late August or early September---and then after a 3 month delay in responding, it seemed he was trying to undermine the only offer we've had from anyone across the state to actually host the state championship. But upon reflection, now I'm mad at myself for the sarcasm, for Nick was doubtless being well intentioned and I just let my frustrations out on him & others who were incommunicado for so long on this issue. Sorry Nick!---and anyone else who felt like a target of my frustrations.

As for your $ frustrations & bus issues connected to those, I understand entirely. And given your own love of qb dating back to your HS years, this makes it doubly frustrating, no doubt.

Still, I am quite thankful that despite these issues you are still able to host on March 6th and intend to go to BATE & Chatham as well. We too hope to go to at least 2 of the 3---we had been considering Bluehen in Delaware for the 20th, simply to play against teams we've rarely seen---but bus issues more than anything might affect this for us too.

Finally, right now it seems only 4 schools have registered or expressed the intention to register for STATES at Princeton---you, MAST, SHP & us. Hopefully between now & then another 10-20 schools at least will sign on. A State tournament with only 4 schools can hardly be called a STATE championship...So, here's hoping things improve quickly. And, BTW, we will be registering for your tournament within the next 24 hours. Oh yes---before closing---I notice you indicated you were "interested" in going to Hunter's Prison Bowl. Any chance you might make it official? Looking at the site on hsquizbowl, an outstanding field is assembling and it seems like this could very well be the most talented HS field this year prior to Nationals---so, if you can, why not join in what looks to be an extremely challenging competition? I hope you can.
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Re: New Jersey NAQT State Championship (2/13/10) @ Princeton

Post by TejdotT » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:56 pm

Moorestown Friends School plans on sending 2-3 teams (more likely 3, unless people start dropping out)
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:28 pm

Registration has closed, with the count at 26 teams from 9 schools. If you haven't actually mailed me a copy of the completed registration form, please do that soon. An email will go out tomorrow to registered schools with more detailed information about the schedule.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:57 pm

I do not want to interfere with your organization of the tournament, but what the heck---in a friendly spirit, of course:

Do you really want to close registration with the official number of teams at 26 (from 9 schools)? How organize around such a number? Two preliminary brackets of 13?---requiring 13 rounds to complete, since byes would be necessary giiven the odd # 13? Leaving only 2 packets for some kind of play-off?

Might it not be better to wait a little longer to close registration to see if you could get 1 or 2 or 4 or 6 more teams? These numbers would get you to 27 ( 3 brackets of 9), 28 ( 4 brackets of 7), 30 ( 5 brackets of 6 or 6 brackets of 5), or, an ideal 32, perhaps ( 4 bracekts of 8?)...Any one of these would seem to be more workable than 2 brackets of 13...Unless somehow a couple of teams voluntarily drop out, allowing you to then create 4 preliminary brackets of 6 or 3 of 8, then taking perhaps the top 2 in each after prelims to play a championship Round Robin, etc., etc....

But---we are just participants---and you are our gracious hosts---so these are just ideas. Perhaps waiting one more week to close registration might help with these numbers? Or, if you want to keep it closed, SJHS or some other school already registered could bring at least one more team to at least get the number of participants to 27---a more manageable 3 braekets of 9, leaving possibly enough packets after prelims to actually decide a champion without risking running out of packets?

Of course, you might have a wonderful formula for the day which I have not even thought of or mentioned here---like perhaps limiting the State Championship bracket to the 9 A Teams if all coaches agree, with perhaps the top 4 or 5 after prelims playing a round robin for the Championship, with the others playing for placement oveerall? Or..or...or??? Who knows---but is it not reasonable to suggest that 26 is a very tough number for bracketing?

But I close leaving these issues in your very capable hands. Good luck with whatever decision you make. Or perhaps you would like other coaches to weigh in on these issues before you decide? Still, I wish you the best no matter what you decide.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:19 pm

Edward Powers wrote:I do not want to interfere with your organization of the tournament, but what the heck---in a friendly spirit, of course:

Do you really want to close registration with the official number of teams at 26 (from 9 schools)? How organize around such a number? Two preliminary brackets of 13?---requiring 13 rounds to complete, since byes would be necessary giiven the odd # 13? Leaving only 2 packets for some kind of play-off?

Might it not be better to wait a little longer to close registration to see if you could get 1 or 2 or 4 or 6 more teams? These numbers would get you to 27 ( 3 brackets of 9), 28 ( 4 brackets of 7), 30 ( 5 brackets of 6 or 6 brackets of 5), or, an ideal 32, perhaps ( 4 bracekts of 8?)...Any one of these would seem to be more workable than 2 brackets of 13...Unless somehow a couple of teams voluntarily drop out, allowing you to then create 4 preliminary brackets of 6 or 3 of 8, then taking perhaps the top 2 in each after prelims to play a championship Round Robin, etc., etc....

But---we are just participants---and you are our gracious hosts---so these are just ideas. Perhaps waiting one more week to close registration might help with these numbers? Or, if you want to keep it closed, SJHS or some other school already registered could bring at least one more team to at least get the number of participants to 27---a more manageable 3 braekets of 9, leaving possibly enough packets after prelims to actually decide a champion without risking running out of packets?

Of course, you might have a wonderful formula for the day which I have not even thought of or mentioned here---like perhaps limiting the State Championship bracket to the 9 A Teams if all coaches agree, with perhaps the top 4 or 5 after prelims playing a round robin for the Championship, with the others playing for placement oveerall? Or..or...or??? Who knows---but is it not reasonable to suggest that 26 is a very tough number for bracketing?

But I close leaving these issues in your very capable hands. Good luck with whatever decision you make. Or perhaps you would like other coaches to weigh in on these issues before you decide? Still, I wish you the best no matter what you decide.
Actually, it's because I have one more school that initiated registration before the deadline, but hasn't told me their team count because of problems with the registration form. It's either one or two more teams, both of which will give us, as you've said, better brackets. I just declined to list them among the teams until I have an official count.

No other teams have expressed interest in attending, but, regardless, I haven't closed registration. There's just a fee now. If there are teams who still wish to attend, they should still email me, and we'll work out the details of the waitlist, fees, etc.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:34 pm

Fair enough. And good luck with these final details. See you in a couple of weeks.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by jonpin » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:56 pm

Youse Da Force wrote:Actually, it's because I have one more school that initiated registration before the deadline, but hasn't told me their team count because of problems with the registration form. It's either one or two more teams, both of which will give us, as you've said, better brackets. I just declined to list them among the teams until I have an official count.

No other teams have expressed interest in attending, but, regardless, I haven't closed registration. There's just a fee now. If there are teams who still wish to attend, they should still email me, and we'll work out the details of the waitlist, fees, etc.
Dan, if you want any help planning or running on tournament day, I'm happy to offer my assistance as I did at the fall tournament.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:37 am

Dan,

In your recent email to all registered teams you indicated that there will either be 30 or 32 teams in attendance depending upon the final numbers of one or morel unnamed teams. Care to reveal who this or those teams are now that the only issue is numbers and not whether they will be in attendance?

Also, you indicated that with 32 teams you would create 4 brackets of 8 for the preliminary round robin, then select the top 6 for the championship bracket? If my memory is correct here, does this not mean that you will select the 4 bracket winners and then only two of the runners-up? How will the 2 be decided? PPG? PPB? What if it's PPB and the two eliminated teams have superior PPG? or, what if PPB is a tiny decimal of .005? Do you really want to eliminate half of the 2nd place teams this way when teams are playing different competition in the prelims?

Would it not be better to select the top 8 for the championship round robin, thus, ALL 1ST & 2ND PLACE TEAMS--- with teams that played each other in the prelims NOT playing each other again in the Championship bracket, but with records carrying over from prelims so that all matches for the day count towards the Championship? This would only add one match to the day---6 throughout the Championship RR bracket instead of 5 in you 6 team scenario--- while avoiding the difficulty of selecting only half of the 2nd place teams from the prelims? And this would still leave two pristine packets at the end in case they are needed for some unforeseen emergency (7 prelim packets, 6 during the Championship rounds) or for an advantaged final, perhaps?

Alternatively, if you have 30 teams, 5 brackets of 6, taking the top 2 from each would leave a top 10---why not a RR of these 10, with opponents from the prelms again NOT playing each other and with prelim records carrying over---so the Championship RR would require 8 matches in addition to the preliminary 5---so again, 13 matches overall, with 2 pristine packets in reserve> This formula could also be applied to the remaining 20 teams as well.

Again, you asked for suggestions from coaches, so these are mine if it is a field of 32 or 30. Perhaps others can weigh in as well.

So---returning to my original question---who is or are the mystery teams who have signed up but have not yet been identified on your list of registrants? Or will you keep this a deep, dark mystery???
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by jonpin » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:45 am

Edward Powers wrote:Would it not be better to select the top 8 for the championship round robin, thus, ALL 1ST & 2ND PLACE TEAMS--- with teams that played each other in the prelims NOT playing each other again in the Championship bracket, but with records carrying over from prelims so that all matches for the day count towards the Championship? This would only add one match to the day---6 throughout the Championship RR bracket instead of 5 in you 6 team scenario--- while avoiding the difficulty of selecting only half of the 2nd place teams from the prelims? And this would still leave two pristine packets at the end in case they are needed for some unforeseen emergency (7 prelim packets, 6 during the Championship rounds) or for an advantaged final, perhaps?
I concur with this suggestion.
Alternatively, if you have 30 teams, 5 brackets of 6, taking the top 2 from each would leave a top 10---why not a RR of these 10, with opponents from the prelms again NOT playing each other and with prelim records carrying over---so the Championship RR would require 8 matches in addition to the preliminary 5---so again, 13 matches overall, with 2 pristine packets in reserve> This formula could also be applied to the remaining 20 teams as well.
Honestly I'm not sure this is too much better than just having the same format as 32 teams, but with two groups having a bye. I think that makes it less likely that you'll have a group where three teams wind up tied for the two spots, and everyone will get seven games in before the re-bracketing (when some teams inevitably leave).

Also, if you could post the email that you sent out, it would be appreciated. It's my understanding that Bergen recently had a coaching change, so it's possible you don't have the latest contact info for them.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:48 am

I agree with Jon---he's thought it through more deeply than I have. Thanks Jon!!!
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:54 am

I have been in contact with Bergen's new coach, but here's the email anyway. It's just about arrival and parking arrangements.

Also, the new schools are Ranney HS and St. Peter's Prep.

Timing: Please plan to arrive between 8:00 and 8:15. The meeting will begin at 8:30, with play to start promptly at 9:00. Lunch will be roughly at 12:30, and the whole tournament will be over by 5:00, probably a little earlier.

Arrival: Please come to the auditorium McCosh 10, located on the second floor of McCosh Hall (not the Hospital). You want to enter by the door on the far Western side. http://www.princeton.edu/~pumap/ This interactive campus map will show you the location of McCosh Hall. Once brackets have been made, I'll send out a second, labeled map that will identify the buildings each bracket will play in.

Parking Assignment: (Non-bus) vehicles can park in any numbered lot. The closest to our meeting place is Lot 10 on Williams Street or Lot 3 behind the Engineering Quad. Any buses must park in Lot 21 by Jadwin Gym. The buses may drop off on Prospect Ave by Robertson Hall. Here's a map of campus parking: http://www.princeton.edu/transportation ... ndRegs.pdf
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 am

jonpin wrote:
Edward Powers wrote:Would it not be better to select the top 8 for the championship round robin, thus, ALL 1ST & 2ND PLACE TEAMS--- with teams that played each other in the prelims NOT playing each other again in the Championship bracket, but with records carrying over from prelims so that all matches for the day count towards the Championship? This would only add one match to the day---6 throughout the Championship RR bracket instead of 5 in you 6 team scenario--- while avoiding the difficulty of selecting only half of the 2nd place teams from the prelims? And this would still leave two pristine packets at the end in case they are needed for some unforeseen emergency (7 prelim packets, 6 during the Championship rounds) or for an advantaged final, perhaps?
I concur with this suggestion.
Alternatively, if you have 30 teams, 5 brackets of 6, taking the top 2 from each would leave a top 10---why not a RR of these 10, with opponents from the prelms again NOT playing each other and with prelim records carrying over---so the Championship RR would require 8 matches in addition to the preliminary 5---so again, 13 matches overall, with 2 pristine packets in reserve> This formula could also be applied to the remaining 20 teams as well.
Honestly I'm not sure this is too much better than just having the same format as 32 teams, but with two groups having a bye. I think that makes it less likely that you'll have a group where three teams wind up tied for the two spots, and everyone will get seven games in before the re-bracketing (when some teams inevitably leave).

Also, if you could post the email that you sent out, it would be appreciated. It's my understanding that Bergen recently had a coaching change, so it's possible you don't have the latest contact info for them.
I don't particularly want to carry over prelim records. I realize it would allow 8 teams playoffs to be finished in less rounds, but I don't like having the final champion (potentially) decided by the first match of the day. I think playoffs should give a fresh start. The second problem I see is that it's going to increase the number of rounds. Carrying records over would demand an advantaged final, adding a round or two to the extra round or two you've already suggested. I don't want this tournament running late, and even without any computer problems I think your proposed schedule is starting to run past 5:00.

Here's a question then, what about two round robin brackets in the playoffs? Say, for 32 teams, we take the top 8, plus two more selected (by some stat, not important right now) and break them into two brackets of 5. The top two teams in each prelim bracket get placed in opposite brackets, assign the other 2 randomly. They play RR, then the winner of each bracket plays in the final. That's 7 prelim rounds, 4 playoff, 1 final, no second place bracket team gets left out, no advantaged final necessary, leaves two packets left.

So for 30 teams, we could do the same thing. 4 brackets of 8, two brackets have a bye, same format for playoffs. Again, 7 prelim, 4 playoff, 1 final. Taking 10 would lessen seeding problems based on the byes.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:28 am

Youse Da Force wrote:
jonpin wrote:
Edward Powers wrote:Would it not be better to select the top 8 for the championship round robin, thus, ALL 1ST & 2ND PLACE TEAMS--- with teams that played each other in the prelims NOT playing each other again in the Championship bracket, but with records carrying over from prelims so that all matches for the day count towards the Championship? This would only add one match to the day---6 throughout the Championship RR bracket instead of 5 in you 6 team scenario--- while avoiding the difficulty of selecting only half of the 2nd place teams from the prelims? And this would still leave two pristine packets at the end in case they are needed for some unforeseen emergency (7 prelim packets, 6 during the Championship rounds) or for an advantaged final, perhaps?
I concur with this suggestion.
Alternatively, if you have 30 teams, 5 brackets of 6, taking the top 2 from each would leave a top 10---why not a RR of these 10, with opponents from the prelms again NOT playing each other and with prelim records carrying over---so the Championship RR would require 8 matches in addition to the preliminary 5---so again, 13 matches overall, with 2 pristine packets in reserve> This formula could also be applied to the remaining 20 teams as well.
Honestly I'm not sure this is too much better than just having the same format as 32 teams, but with two groups having a bye. I think that makes it less likely that you'll have a group where three teams wind up tied for the two spots, and everyone will get seven games in before the re-bracketing (when some teams inevitably leave).

Also, if you could post the email that you sent out, it would be appreciated. It's my understanding that Bergen recently had a coaching change, so it's possible you don't have the latest contact info for them.
I don't particularly want to carry over prelim records. I realize it would allow 8 teams playoffs to be finished in less rounds, but I don't like having the final champion (potentially) decided by the first match of the day. I think playoffs should give a fresh start. The second problem I see is that it's going to increase the number of rounds. Carrying records over would demand an advantaged final, adding a round or two to the extra round or two you've already suggested. I don't want this tournament running late, and even without any computer problems I think your proposed schedule is starting to run past 5:00.

Here's a question then, what about two round robin brackets in the playoffs? Say, for 32 teams, we take the top 8, plus two more selected (by some stat, not important right now) and break them into two brackets of 5. The top two teams in each prelim bracket get placed in opposite brackets, assign the other 2 randomly. They play RR, then the winner of each bracket plays in the final. That's 7 prelim rounds, 4 playoff, 1 final, no second place bracket team gets left out, no advantaged final necessary, leaves two packets left.

So for 30 teams, we could do the same thing. 4 brackets of 8, two brackets have a bye, same format for playoffs. Again, 7 prelim, 4 playoff, 1 final. Taking 10 would lessen seeding problems based on the byes.
For 30: Prelim brackets of 6, take top 2, playing off any ties. Brackets of six again for playoffs.

For 32: Prelim brackets of 8, take top 2, but only carry over games from teams in the same bracket (a la ACF Nationals 2009).

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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:34 pm

Dan,

I understand your desire to have a fresh start. But would not your two playoff brackets of 5 still require 13 rounds, since brackets of 5 would require a bye round?So, 7 rounds in the prelims, 5 playoff rounds and a cross-bracket final still gets you to 13 rounds, does it not? In your scenario, why not prelims of 7 rounds and then just take the top 2 from each of the 4 brackets? Then two RR with 4 teams per bracket? This creates 10 rounds of play, then cross bracket matches for all 8 spots, giving the top 8 teams eleven matches and the top 8 spots, from 1-8, will be earned in a playoff match for each? Teams below the top 8 could also match these brackets if they wish to stay, etc., etc....

If ties for 1st place occur within either or both of the two playoff brackets of 4, a playoff match could be played to determine the two finalists. Ties for spots below 1st could be broken as they always are--by PPG within the bracket. In this scenario, 11 rounds will be guaranteed for all, with a 12th necessary only if a tie needs to be broken before the cross-bracket matches. This seems to address your concern about running too late. But unless I am missing something, your extra 2 teams added to the top 8, creating two 5 team playoff brackets, would require 13 rounds to complete---isn't this true?

Anyway---- thanks for inviting a discussion about this. I am sure we all want the fairest formula for all involved. Maybe this discussion will inspire someone to arrive at an even better formula.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by jonpin » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:25 pm

As said above, starting with 4x8, if you're going to have two top-level playoff brackets, it doesn't make any sense to have 10 teams. Either qualify top two from each group and have two 4-team playoff brackets; or qualify top three from each group and have two 6-team playoff brackets. Adding teams 9 and 10 already makes you take 5 rounds, so you may as well add teams 11 and 12 so you don't need to have byes or statistical eliminations.

Donald, for your 30-team scenario, starting with 5 groups of 6 and qualifying top two, that gives you 10 teams, but you say playoff groups of six. Could you clarify what you intended?
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:33 pm

jonpin wrote:As said above, starting with 4x8, if you're going to have two top-level playoff brackets, it doesn't make any sense to have 10 teams. Either qualify top two from each group and have two 4-team playoff brackets; or qualify top three from each group and have two 6-team playoff brackets. Adding teams 9 and 10 already makes you take 5 rounds, so you may as well add teams 11 and 12 so you don't need to have byes or statistical eliminations.

Donald, for your 30-team scenario, starting with 5 groups of 6 and qualifying top two, that gives you 10 teams, but you say playoff groups of six. Could you clarify what you intended?
Gah. I need to write this kind of stuff down before posting, or just not post before 8am. Take top team from each bracket, and do brackets of 5. Do not carry over records.

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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:07 pm

Edward Powers wrote:Dan,

I understand your desire to have a fresh start. But would not your two playoff brackets of 5 still require 13 rounds, since brackets of 5 would require a bye round?So, 7 rounds in the prelims, 5 playoff rounds and a cross-bracket final still gets you to 13 rounds, does it not? In your scenario, why not prelims of 7 rounds and then just take the top 2 from each of the 4 brackets? Then two RR with 4 teams per bracket? This creates 10 rounds of play, then cross bracket matches for all 8 spots, giving the top 8 teams eleven matches and the top 8 spots, from 1-8, will be earned in a playoff match for each? Teams below the top 8 could also match these brackets if they wish to stay, etc., etc....

If ties for 1st place occur within either or both of the two playoff brackets of 4, a playoff match could be played to determine the two finalists. Ties for spots below 1st could be broken as they always are--by PPG within the bracket. In this scenario, 11 rounds will be guaranteed for all, with a 12th necessary only if a tie needs to be broken before the cross-bracket matches. This seems to address your concern about running too late. But unless I am missing something, your extra 2 teams added to the top 8, creating two 5 team playoff brackets, would require 13 rounds to complete---isn't this true?

Anyway---- thanks for inviting a discussion about this. I am sure we all want the fairest formula for all involved. Maybe this discussion will inspire someone to arrive at an even better formula.
Yes, sorry, I kept dropping the bye round from my count when I was considering how many rounds. Top 8 teams split into two brackets of 4 makes a lot more sense.

So, you're saying, after the two playoff brackets, the top team in each bracket play for 1st and 2nd, next 2 for 3rd/4th, etc.? Then, yeah, we'd need 11, max 12. That would work out well, I think.

So, question about tie breaking. If we do have ties in the prelim brackets, and I break them by ppg, what about the two brackets of 7? I can envision coaches complaining about not having played as many rounds altering the ppg. I'm inclined to use a 5 tossup match to decide it, but I know that could run into complaints about skewed distributions. Is ppg accurate enough? They've played the same teams...
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by jonpin » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:46 pm

Youse Da Force wrote:So, question about tie breaking. If we do have ties in the prelim brackets, and I break them by ppg, what about the two brackets of 7? I can envision coaches complaining about not having played as many rounds altering the ppg. I'm inclined to use a 5 tossup match to decide it, but I know that could run into complaints about skewed distributions. Is ppg accurate enough? They've played the same teams...
There are two types of tiebreaking. Tie-breaking within the group, teams have played the same schedule and so PPG can be used freely. If you'd prefer to hold a playoff, 5 tossups is far too short. A half-game is reasonable, but a full game would be better. If you'd rather not create that additional time, then PPG is definitely what you should use.

Tie-breaking across groups won't be used to eliminate anyone if you're taking 8 teams to the playoffs. For seeding purposes, which aren't as important, you'd use W-L followed by PPG or PPB.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:14 pm

My understanding is that in prelim brackets, PPG is fine to break ties WITHIN the bracket, since all played the same teams. Now a tie between two teams only for 1st & 2nd would not cause a problem since both teams would move on anyway. The problem of ties might be a 3 way circle of death---let's say between 3 teams tied at 6-1. In such a case, my understanding is that the team that is first in PPG gets the #1 seed, but since a playoff spot awaits one of the other 2, some kind of playoff match is arranged---usually a half-packet of 10 toss-ups and bonuses. The same would be true if the tie was for 2nd place only---some reasonable tie breaker would be needed.

If the ties occur in brackets of 7, all such teams still played in the same bracket against the same opponents, so PPG should not be an issue there either. If you were selecting only some 2nd place teams and not others from the 4 brackets, PPG could pose a serious problem because you would have to compare teams across brackets with teams playing totally different opponents. But that is not the case here---only the top two spots WITHIN each prelim bracket need to be determined, and ALL tied teams will have faced the same opponents.

Perhaps the real tie-breaking problem might occur in the playoff rounds, if 2 or more teams are tied for 1st in one or both of the 2 playoff brackets, each or all probably with only one loss. In that case, after 10 matches, PPG might not be an acceptable method to eliminate a one loss team playing for a state championship. So, in that scenario, some playoff formula to determine the finalists in one or both brackets needs to be determined beforehand. Should it be a half packet of 10? A packet of 20 toss-ups only? More experienced NAQT persons than I debate these things all the time. But this is where the conflict between the time it takes to complete the tournament and its quality in determining its rightful champion comes most into pay, so here is where the best decisions must be made, and they should be made beforehand so all know what the rules are should such a tie or ties occur. If on the other hand there are only ties for 2nd & 3rd or 3rd& 4th within the playoff brackets, I think all can agree that for the sake of efficiency PPG within the bracket is an acceptable tie breaker for placement purposes to determine the seeds for the across bracket pairings for spots 3-8 at the end of the day. But these are only my reflections. If they help, great. If not, jettison them ASAP. Perhaps others have better ideas.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:18 am

Dan,

Since both Princeton & Rutgers are sponsoring this tournament, to whom should checks be made payable?
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by olsb25 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:48 am

I can answer that: Princeton.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:07 pm

Kunle,

Payable to "Princeton" simply, or to the Princeton Quiz Bowl Team or The "Princeton Academic Team"? Since it is a check, i would like it to be accurate so you can get compensated without any problems. Thanks!
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:21 pm

The registration form says to Princeton College Bowl, so I suppose that's what the school told us when the form was made.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:32 pm

So currently, Rutgers' buzzers don't all work and we're 4 sets short of the 15 needed just to run the tournament. I'm making requests to the attending schools to bring whatever they haven't registered or gotten a hold of, but that may not be enough.

I know some other NJ teams read this, so I figure it can't hurt to ask if anyone has anything to offer.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:16 pm

SJHS should be able to help by bringing one more complete system---the problem is there will only be 8 working lights on each of our 2 sets, so if one breaks during the day, there will be no spares. But I am pretty sure we can bring a 2nd full system. I'll let you know after practice tomorrow.

EDIT:At practice we discovered we have 16 working buzzers, for 2 complete sets, but only 15 working lights---so one set will be sans a light---and no spares will exist, so hopefully no breakage occurs during the day. Hopefully others can help as well, but this is the best we can do.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:45 pm

Updates:

Because of snow, one school (St. Peter's Prep) and 3 total teams (2 St. Peter's and 1 MAST) have dropped, bringing the total to 28 teams. Thus, we will play four 7-team round robin brackets. This also means we need 3 less buzzer systems, and so will definitely have the minimum to provide each room with a set.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by raysaagar » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:39 pm

I don't know if this was stated in registration, but we are bringing one buzzer system tomorrow.
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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Youse Da Force » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:46 pm

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Re: New Jersey 2010 NAQT States 2/13/10 @ Princeton University

Post by Frater Taciturnus » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:28 pm

Someone has been reading Good Omens!
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