ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

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ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Important Bird Area » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:07 pm

Posting the following on behalf of Matt Marshall:

The Region 9 SCT will take place at Indiana University on February 6th. Meet in the Indiana Memorial Union, 2nd floor of the main lobby, in the main doors and up the stairs.

Registration 8:00 -9:00 am
Opening meeting 9:00 am

Play begins at 9:30 am

Current field (1/29):

Division I:
Ohio State (2)
Illinois (1-2)
Indiana (expressed interest)

Division II:
Ball State (1)
DePauw (1)
Ohio State (2)
Illinois (1-2)
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by JackGlerum » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:44 pm

We really wanted to come to this, but have conflicts. I unregistered us on the website.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Red-necked Phalarope » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:55 pm

Any news on that Indiana team? That'd give us a nice 6 for the DI field and, possibly, 4 UG teams.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Papa's in the House » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:48 pm

Illinois is sending 2 teams for both D1 and D2.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Red-necked Phalarope » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:53 am

After much deliberation, Ohio State had to pull out of this Sectional, as a night's worth of solid snowfall would make the roads between here and Dayton or so extremely treacherous at the time we'd be driving on them. Apologies to the rest of the field.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Captain Sinico » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:16 am

Awesome! Now I get the combined field and D2 questions I always wanted to play on! You're going DOWN, possible Indiana team!

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Papa's in the House » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:55 am

Atlee Hammaker wrote:After much deliberation, Ohio State had to pull out of this Sectional, as a night's worth of solid snowfall would make the roads between here and Dayton or so extremely treacherous at the time we'd be driving on them. Apologies to the rest of the field.
Well, this'll be interesting. Hopefully someone can lean on Indiana to field a team for a separated D1 field.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Geringer » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:56 am

Captain Sinico wrote:Awesome! Now I get the combined field and D2 questions I always wanted to play on! You're going DOWN, possible Indiana team!

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by BGSO » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:26 am

Windy roads=cannot drive as fast as expected. Will definitely be later than the assigned time.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Papa's in the House » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:48 am

Humpty Jackson wrote:Windy roads=cannot drive as fast as expected. Will definitely be later than the assigned time.
Make that hours after the tournament start time... Someone should be aware that one Illinois team and half of two others are going to be "late"
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:12 am

Humpty Jackson wrote:Windy roads=cannot drive as fast as expected. Will definitely be later than the assigned time.
We heard some things about going into a ditch, did everything turn out ok?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Geringer » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:40 am

nalin wrote:
Humpty Jackson wrote:Windy roads=cannot drive as fast as expected. Will definitely be later than the assigned time.
We heard some things about going into a ditch, did everything turn out ok?
Yeah, everyone got there alive and the tournament still finished 10-ish rounds before 4pm. I'm convinced that one of our players lost a PPTUH tiebreaker because he was suffering from PTSD after falling into the ditch, though.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:41 am

Halakis wrote:
nalin wrote:
Humpty Jackson wrote:Windy roads=cannot drive as fast as expected. Will definitely be later than the assigned time.
We heard some things about going into a ditch, did everything turn out ok?
Yeah, everyone got there alive and the tournament still finished 10-ish rounds before 4pm. I'm convinced that one of our players lost a PPTUH tiebreaker because he was suffering from PTSD after falling into the ditch, though.
No, the issue was that Ike wasn't there for round 1. Jeet playing by himself isn't exactly going to produce a lot of points.

Results:

After a ~1.5RR, Illinois A (Sorice+Taylor) was 9-1, and Illinois B (Messners+Canning+Baboukis) was tied with Illinois D (Jose+Raut) at 8-2. IL B won the PPTUH tiebreaker, earning the berth into an advantaged final. Illinois A won 475-240.

Also, the entire tournament was on D2 questions, since there were only 3 D1 teams (Illinois A/B, Miami (OH) A).

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Mike Bentley » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:09 am

dtaylor4 wrote:
Halakis wrote:
nalin wrote:
Humpty Jackson wrote:Windy roads=cannot drive as fast as expected. Will definitely be later than the assigned time.
We heard some things about going into a ditch, did everything turn out ok?
Yeah, everyone got there alive and the tournament still finished 10-ish rounds before 4pm. I'm convinced that one of our players lost a PPTUH tiebreaker because he was suffering from PTSD after falling into the ditch, though.
No, the issue was that Ike wasn't there for round 1. Jeet playing by himself isn't exactly going to produce a lot of points.

Results:

After a ~1.5RR, Illinois A (Sorice+Taylor) was 9-1, and Illinois B (Messners+Canning+Baboukis) was tied with Illinois D (Jose+Raut) at 8-2. IL B won the PPTUH tiebreaker, earning the berth into an advantaged final. Illinois A won 475-240.

Also, the entire tournament was on D2 questions, since there were only 3 D1 teams (Illinois A/B, Miami (OH) A).
Don't NAQT's rules suggest to run a match to decide who gets into the finals rather than a paper tiebreaker?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:24 am

Bentley Like Beckham wrote:Don't NAQT's rules suggest to run a match to decide who gets into the finals rather than a paper tiebreaker?
They do, but you severely overestimate the competency of the staff. Two good readers were switching off in a single room, and I consider myself fortunate that Mike and I played the vast majority of our rounds in that room (rounds 2-6, 9, and 10.) With two other readers, we got through 17 and 18 each. This figure is a bit inflated, as six tossups were for power, and Mike and I rarely took the full time on bonuses.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:18 pm

You know I was thinking to myself the other day, "Self? What is it quizbowl desperately needs right now?" and the answer I got back was: MORE thoroughly incompetent people not just staffing, but RUNNING some of our most important tournaments. Glad to see we opened the floodgates with this retarded ACUI deal.

Seriously, I thought the whole point of a non-CBI circuit was to get as far away from these boobs as possible? Or did I just miss something in the last decade?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Mike Bentley » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:55 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote:You know I was thinking to myself the other day, "Self? What is it quizbowl desperately needs right now?" and the answer I got back was: MORE thoroughly incompetent people not just staffing, but RUNNING some of our most important tournaments. Glad to see we opened the floodgates with this retarded ACUI deal.

Seriously, I thought the whole point of a non-CBI circuit was to get as far away from these boobs as possible? Or did I just miss something in the last decade?
Yeah I'd like to echo my complaints about the ACUI deal. Maybe it was because NAQT was really late in actually announcing SCT hosts, but it seemed like there weren't a lot of non-circuit teams attending this tournament (the main attraction of having a deal with ACUI). Instead, you had ACUI taking $40-$80 from every team that attended a tournament, a lot of bad moderators and staffers, and teams running into restrictions on what sites they could attend.

Are there any details on how long this contract was signed for? If things don't approve in terms of teams coming next year, I'd personally be for ending this contract if possible.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:00 pm

Bentley Like Beckham wrote:
Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote:You know I was thinking to myself the other day, "Self? What is it quizbowl desperately needs right now?" and the answer I got back was: MORE thoroughly incompetent people not just staffing, but RUNNING some of our most important tournaments. Glad to see we opened the floodgates with this retarded ACUI deal.

Seriously, I thought the whole point of a non-CBI circuit was to get as far away from these boobs as possible? Or did I just miss something in the last decade?
Yeah I'd like to echo my complaints about the ACUI deal. Maybe it was because NAQT was really late in actually announcing SCT hosts, but it seemed like there weren't a lot of non-circuit teams attending this tournament (the main attraction of having a deal with ACUI). Instead, you had ACUI taking $40-$80 from every team that attended a tournament, a lot of bad moderators and staffers, and teams running into restrictions on what sites they could attend.

Are there any details on how long this contract was signed for? If things don't approve in terms of teams coming next year, I'd personally be for ending this contract if possible.
I think that letting ACUI people near SCT was a bad idea. NAQT should have stepped in, and offered better IM questions at a lower rate, and use campus tournaments as bait to get these new schools to SCT.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:04 pm

I'm pretty sure they already offer better IM questions, and I'd imagine they're not more expensive.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Important Bird Area » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:08 pm

More on this in a while after I talk to R.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by The Moviegoer » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:16 pm

A more complete picture of our yesterday:

Due to the terrible weather, our first car arrived around 10ish. After figuring out where the TD actually was (Indiana people, your union is labyrinthine!) we informed him that our other two cars were going to be late, one coming within a few minutes and the other delayed significantly. He was accommodating, and we waited. He was also determined to get out by 6 at the latest, which is fine, and admirable really. This meant 10 rounds, which would also be fine, except that the schedule ended up being, as Donald referenced above, a 1.5 round robin. Basically, the 7 teams played a round robin, then repeated their first three matches. Obviously this creates unevenness of schedule problems, but the TD was seemingly uninterested in alternate (10 round) bracketing options. The reader situation was also fairly frustrating. Two rooms had competent readers (and as Donald noted, one of those rooms actually have two competent readers who would switch off!). In one of the rooms (which was actually staffed by one of Jeff Hoppes' Princeton teammates from the olden days, apparently, though, sadly, I've forgotten his name) we would always get through at least 20 questions, and in the other 18-20. However, the other two rooms were not so good, with us getting rounds of 14(!) and at one point, if I remember correctly, 12-13 (!!!) questions. The issues went beyond speed, however, with those moderators not knowing basic rules (like when another team would neg on the tossup, the moderator would turn to me for an answer instead of finishing the question) and talking on the clock. I can't blame these moderators too much of course, as they were volunteers, and clearly didn't get the training they needed. This does, however, illustrate the importance of having circuit readers. Finally, two of the game rooms were in one area of the union, and two in the other, causing delays for long walks throughout the day. Ultimately the day was underwhelming, and while large parts of it were unavoidable (weather issues causing combined fields, etc) other parts certainly were.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Papa's in the House » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:57 pm

It seemed the moderators were also not willing to accept the advice of the players for issues related to timing, reading difficult words, and other traditional problems related to moderating. In the rooms with the bad moderators (11 and 15 tossups heard being the lowest in the rooms), average answer time ended up being 6-9 seconds, usually because the moderator would give an additional 2-3 seconds after saying "answer please," despite already giving 4-6 seconds for an answer. One of my teammates raised the issue of proper timing during one half, but the comments seem to have been (mostly) ignored. These issues mattered in some close matches.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:30 pm

The organization and staff training at this tournament were not sufficient. An organization not being able to come up with four rooms nearby one another; with four staffers who can read, know the rules, and know how to follow a schedule; with any interaction with the team on the host campus or with knowledgeable outside people; or with a fair schedule, when such was easily available even within their parameters as was called to their attention several times, must all count as big strikes. In fact, the attendees were lucky in some sense as these problems would almost certainly have been severely exacerbated if 1/3 of this tournament's field hadn't evaporated the night before.
I do appreciate the host's willingness to accommodate our car troubles and they did come up with three good readers (albeit in only two rooms for some reason.) In the final analysis, that doesn't excuse the other issues.
The imperative here is clear. Either NAQT needs to do a much better job interfacing with ACUI hosts to ensure that these issues do not recur, or NAQT needs to allow only established hosts to host SCTs.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Important Bird Area » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:36 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:NAQT needs to do a much better job interfacing with ACUI hosts to ensure that these issues do not recur
I strongly agree with this, and would like to apologize that I did not do a better job of this this year.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Geringer » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:58 pm

I kind of want to echo what the others said with two specific examples.

In the first round I played (solo against Mike Sorice), I negged hard on the first question and the moderator proceeded to read the answer aloud. Shortly afterwards, the same moderator read half of a science tossup before throwing it out because he/she couldn't pronounce some of the words. After comparing notes with others, there was a disturbing lack of science questions read in that room and that room only.

Moderators didn't understand that they needed to pick up their speed while on the clock. I can understand that most people can't read at the speed NAQT requires, but they insisting to read ALL of the acceptable answers and taking long pauses in between questions EVEN AFTER several teams asked them to do otherwise for speed reasons. At one point, we had a bizarre situation in which half of the field played a round before lunch. My team had not, and Ike Jose and others volunteered to read the third round and give the aforementioned No-Science moderator a break. This idea was shot down with no more than a "No." I think we finished a whopping 14 questions that round.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by setht » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:07 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:The imperative here is clear. Either NAQT needs to do a much better job interfacing with ACUI hosts to ensure that these issues do not recur, or NAQT needs to allow only established hosts to host SCTs.
I just want to note that the second option ("allow only established hosts to host SCTs") is definitely overkill--the ACUI people at UIC did a fine job of running things yesterday. Clearly the Region 9 SCT had much, much bigger issues with the TDing/staffing than the Region 8 SCT. I don't know if the ACUI people who ran things at Indiana are beyond hope as tournament organizers, or if Region 8 got lucky, or both; I don't know what ACUI people in other parts of the country are like. What I do know is that at least some ACUI people in Region 8 are capable of organizing a fine tournament on their first try*, and I imagine they can do an even better job after learning from the experience of running this SCT, taking feedback from this go-around into account, and given more time to plan and communicate with local circuit people. I suspect one of the major differences between the SCTs in Regions 8 and 9 was that the outpouring of vocal concern in the past weeks regarding the UIC SCT led to more communication between NAQT, the local circuit, and the ACUI people at UIC, and laid the groundwork for the ACUI people bringing in more experienced staff and being receptive to suggestions from circuit people. Given what happened at UIC this year, I think increased communication between NAQT/local circuits/ACUI should take care of most or all of the issues that plagued the Indiana SCT (and possibly others?).

* At least, a fine tournament for the DI teams.

I would imagine that next year's sites can be set up in a more timely fashion, and that NAQT will make sure that sites running under the auspices of ACUI will get in touch with the local circuit, recruit plenty of experienced staff, etc. Fred's suggestion from another thread of bringing in some local circuit veteran who isn't playing to serve as co-TD also seems like an idea worth exploring. I think the ACUI people have some nice things to offer the circuit when it comes to running SCT. One of the big selling points (circuit growth) may not happen much (or at all) this year, but hopefully with more time to promote the tournament next year there will also be increased participation from new teams.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:04 pm

I continue to disagree, Seth. It seems to me that UIC's SCT had all the potential to be bad that IU's did, except NAQT intervened in the former and not the latter, mostly by taking some steps to get outside moderators in. In fact, we saw that even the comparatively good UIC SCT TDs failed to replace a very unacceptable reader about whom at least one team complained, even when better replacements were available. You have to acknowledge that that problem or worse might well have replicated itself many times if 4/7 moderators hadn't been provided from outside at least in part through NAQT's efforts.
A lot of what you're saying is sound. These tournaments could have been worse I hope the hosts will learn and do some things better next time. However, NAQT needs to actively involve itself in that learning so I have more than hope.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by setht » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:12 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:I continue to disagree, Seth. It seems to me that UIC's SCT had all the potential to be bad that IU's did, except NAQT intervened in the former and not the latter, mostly by taking some steps to get outside moderators in. In fact, we saw that even the comparatively good UIC SCT TDs failed to replace a very unacceptable reader about whom at least one team complained, even when better replacements were available. You have to acknowledge that that problem or worse might well have replicated itself many times if 4/7 moderators hadn't been provided from outside at least in part through NAQT's efforts.
A lot of what you're saying is sound. These tournaments could have been worse I hope the hosts will learn and do some things better next time. However, NAQT needs to actively involve itself in that learning so I have more than hope.

MaS
Sorry, I wasn't clear with that previous post. I am saying I don't think NAQT needs to dump the ACUI connection as a completely lost cause. I am very much on board with your previous statement that "NAQT needs to do a much better job interfacing with ACUI hosts to ensure that these issues do not recur," and I would say that NAQT did a fairly good (but not perfect) job of interfacing with the ACUI host in Region 8 for this year's tournament. Looking ahead to next year, if NAQT can improve somewhat on that level of communication, and get that going with all ACUI hosts, I imagine that will answer most or all of the concerns people have raised here and elsewhere.

-Seth
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Papa's in the House » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:04 pm

Will stats ever be posted for this tournament?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:50 pm

Yes, expect them on naqt.com shortly.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:01 pm

Frazer Yeats wrote:Will stats ever be posted for this tournament?
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President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:25 pm

Did this tournament use the DII set?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Captain Sinico » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:28 pm

Very much so.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Charbroil » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:38 pm

Why is the third place team the one listed as qualifying for ICT?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by dtaylor4 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:40 pm

Charbroil wrote:Why is the third place team the one listed as qualifying for ICT?
Because that team was the highest finishing D2 team. There were only 3 D1 teams (Illinois A, Illinois B, Miami A).

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Papa's in the House » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:39 am

Not that this matters much:

Illinois C
*Round 1 - ? (wasn't here yet)
*Round 2 - Loss to IL B (145-180) [Jeff: 1/2/0, David: 0/2/0, Charles: 0/0/0, Bonus: 90]
*Round 3 - Win against Ball State (135-115) [Jeff: 1/3/2, David: 0/2/2, Charles: 0/0/0, Bonus: 90]
*Round 4 - Loss to IL D (40-405?) [Jeff: 0/2/1, David: 0/0/2, Charles: 0/0/1, Bonus: 40]
*Round 5 - Win against Miami (OH) C (255-35) [Jeff: 0/2/0, David: 1/5/1, Charles: 0/1/1, Bonus: 170]
*Round 6 - Win against Miami (OH) B (90-85) [Jeff: 0/1/2, David: 0/2/3, Charles: 0/3/1, Bonus: 60] -> The resolution of a protest caused our win, though it seems to have been noted that Miami (OH) B won the protest...
*Round 7 - Loss to Miami (OH) A (35-230) [Jeff: 0/0/4, David: 0/4/1, Charles: 0/1/2, Bonus: 20]
*Round 8 - Loss to IL A (40-570) [Jeff: 0/0/0, David: 1/1/1, Charles: 0/0/0, Bonus: 20]
*Round 9 - Loss to IL B (10-345) [Jeff: 0/1/0, David: 0/1/2, Charles: 0/0/0, Bonus: 0]
*Round 10 - Loss to Ball State (120-175) [Jeff: 0/0/2, David: 1/3/0, Charles: 0/2/1, Bonus: 70]

David: 3/20/12
Jeff: 2/9/12 (plus whatever he got in Round 1)
Charles: 0/7/6
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: NAQT Region 9 SCT at Indiana (February 6)

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:30 pm

Frazer Yeats wrote:The resolution of a protest caused our win, though it seems to have been noted that Miami (OH) B won the protest...
This correction has now been applied to the results on naqt.com. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

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