British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Old college threads.
Locked
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

As long as people are announcing ACF Fall mirrors, I wanted to announce this one. I don't particularly expect anybody reading this site to see this announcement and decide to come, so please consider this less an announcement of a tournament than an announcement of the existence of a regular-season quizbowl circuit in a third English-speaking country. This should be a great year. As far as the obligatory tournament information goes, it will take place at St. John's College and cost a flat rate of £25 per team with a £5 buzzer discount. More information can be found at the formal announcement on our website. Email thomas.speller [at] jesus [dot] ox.ac.uk to register.

Final field:

Cambridge (1 team, 1 buzzer)
Manchester (1 team, 1 buzzer)
Oxford (7 teams, 4 buzzers)
Oxford Brookes (1 team)
Sheffield (1 team)

TOTAL: 11 teams, 6 buzzers

I also challenge Cambridge student Yi Sun to come to this tournament.
EDIT: challenge not accepted in favor of a vacation in Norway.
Last edited by Kyle on Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
User avatar
AKKOLADE
Sin
Posts: 15783
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:08 am

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by AKKOLADE »

How's this looking?

Also, if you're playing in this tournament, do not read the discussion of the tournament until after the tournament.
Fred Morlan
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

It's still happening. The field above is correct. Hopefully Imperial, Durham, and York will confirm that they're coming soon. Still no indication from Cambridge. But we could probably field five house teams if necessary, so it will be a fine tournament.

Edit: York isn't coming.
Last edited by Kyle on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
User avatar
AKKOLADE
Sin
Posts: 15783
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:08 am

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by AKKOLADE »

Awesome. This is pretty exciting!
Fred Morlan
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

I'm bumping this thread, inviting you to look at the field update, reminding you that Oxford is staffing this tournament as well as playing it, referring you to this thread, and informing Kenneth from ASU that he's got nothing.
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
Sun Devil Student
Rikku
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:05 am

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Sun Devil Student »

You're lucky I ever even looked at this thread at all, but since I'm here...

Nice.

Are those really 7 full teams of 4 each and (presumably) 6-10 staffers?

So how did the Oxford organization get so big? Chicago claims to have had 6 teams before, but it seems like you might be setting the world record here.
Kenneth Lan, ASU '11, '12, UIC '17
The University of Illinois at Chicago
-stranger in a strange land (2013-)
The Sonoran Desert quizbowl ecosystem
-activist/advocate (2010-2013)
The Arizona State University Quizbowl Club
-elder statesman (2011-2013)
-coach (2009-2011)
-club president (2008-2011)
-founder (2007-)
User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5647
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Chicago "claims" to have had 6 teams before?
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White
jonah
Auron
Posts: 2383
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:51 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by jonah »

Sun Devil Student wrote:Chicago claims to have had 6 teams before, but it seems like you might be setting the world record here.
As recently as a month and a half ago, we had eight teams at ACF Novice, and remember that a significant portion of our club wasn't even eligible for that tournament.
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

Hell, I'm excited when 8 people show up to practice. I couldn't imagine having 29 people go to a tournament.
Nicholas C
KQBA member
User avatar
Whiter Hydra
Auron
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:46 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Contact:

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Hilltopper22 wrote:Hell, I'm excited when 8 people show up to practice. I couldn't imagine having 29 people go to a tournament.
Bill Tressler should hire himself out with the promise of having nine teams within two years.
Harry White
TJHSST '09, Virginia Tech '13

Owner of Tournament Database Search and Quizbowl Schedule Generator
Will run stats for food
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

Sun Devil Student wrote:Are those really 7 full teams of 4 each and (presumably) 6-10 staffers?

So how did the Oxford organization get so big?
It's 34 people. Four of them aren't actually part of our team, but instead constitute Exeter College's upcoming University Challenge team. Nevertheless, they are eligible Oxford students playing together.

As for how our team got so big, see, when you have practice every week but never go to a tournament, people don't get the opportunity to decide that they don't want to keep doing this, so they have to keep coming back each week. This is a trick you should learn in the US: if you don't go to tournaments, your team will get bigger. What exactly people are "practicing" for each Monday night I have never totally understood. But it's not like our team suddenly ballooned in size -- it was huge long before I got here.
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
Edmund
Wakka
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund »

Kyle wrote:What exactly people are "practicing" for each Monday night I have never totally understood. But it's not like our team suddenly ballooned in size -- it was huge long before I got here.
What we were practising for was twenty minutes of competition every year vs. Cambridge, an engagement which the record will show we never lost. Probably about ten years ago one might argue we were practising for the British Student Quiz Championships or the ICT. Many people who turned up were in fact tacitly practising for the Oxford Inter-Collegiate Quiz in which they would play against their Oxford teammates.

In any case it is a good thing to be able to field a large number of (competent!) teams. Hopefully Cambridge and Imperial will show to reduce the Oxford-heavy nature and give us an opportunity at a Varsity rematch.
Edmund Dickinson
UK Quizbowl
University of Oxford '11
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

(It should be noted how seriously people take competitions against Cambridge. You can compete against them in pretty much any activity in which you can keep time or keep score. I just read a newspaper article about the Oxford vs. Cambridge swim-across-the-English-Channel (we lost). The Oxford and Cambridge orienteering clubs are planning their varsity match. Naturally, it is going to be held in the forests of the rural Czech Republic. They have to start planning it very far in advance because the necessary vaccines for tick-borne encephalitis have to be given in three doses over the course of six months.)
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
Sun Devil Student
Rikku
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:05 am

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Sun Devil Student »

jonah wrote:As recently as a month and a half ago, we had eight teams at ACF Novice, and remember that a significant portion of our club wasn't even eligible for that tournament.
I'll make a minor quibble that two of those teams were shorthanded, but that's very impressive. Maybe you guys can have a 7-on-7 Chicago vs. Oxford tournament sometime.

Has either team considered applying to the Guinness Book of World Records?
Kenneth Lan, ASU '11, '12, UIC '17
The University of Illinois at Chicago
-stranger in a strange land (2013-)
The Sonoran Desert quizbowl ecosystem
-activist/advocate (2010-2013)
The Arizona State University Quizbowl Club
-elder statesman (2011-2013)
-coach (2009-2011)
-club president (2008-2011)
-founder (2007-)
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

I believe that format is called "really deep bench."
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

Kyle wrote:I believe that format is called "really deep bench."
Countdown until Dwight devises a 28-player format wherein you sometimes play as quads, sometimes singles, sometimes doubles, and sometimes play seven-a-side soccer.
Andrew Watkins
User avatar
Frater Taciturnus
Auron
Posts: 2463
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:26 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Frater Taciturnus »

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:
Kyle wrote:I believe that format is called "really deep bench."
Countdown until Dwight devises a 28-player format wherein you sometimes play as quads, sometimes singles, sometimes doubles, and sometimes play seven-a-side soccer.
As long as we don't have to play Quidditch.
Janet Berry
[email protected]
she/they
--------------
J. Sargeant Reynolds CC 2008, 2009, 2014
Virginia Commonwealth 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013,
Douglas Freeman 2005, 2006, 2007
Sun Devil Student
Rikku
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:05 am

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Sun Devil Student »

Kyle wrote:I believe that format is called "really deep bench."
Well, what I was thinking of was more along the lines of "each team plays all 7 of the teams from the opposing school once" or maybe twice, and then maybe followed by each 7-team delegation ranked by record and playing a playoff game against its opposite number, but after looking up what you guys meant by "deep bench" I suppose you could try to do that too.
Kenneth Lan, ASU '11, '12, UIC '17
The University of Illinois at Chicago
-stranger in a strange land (2013-)
The Sonoran Desert quizbowl ecosystem
-activist/advocate (2010-2013)
The Arizona State University Quizbowl Club
-elder statesman (2011-2013)
-coach (2009-2011)
-club president (2008-2011)
-founder (2007-)
Edmund
Wakka
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund »

Preliminary results:

Oxford Pennyfeather (Peter Berry, Kyle Haddad-Fonda, Tim Hele, George Woudhuysen) win with 10-0.

Cambridge (captain Alex Guttenplan) and Oxford Belacqua (captain Simon Spiro) tie on 8-2, Oxford B beat Cambridge in second place play-off.

Full stats will follow in due course.
Edmund Dickinson
UK Quizbowl
University of Oxford '11
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

Full stats can be found at this link.

Thanks very much to Evan for letting us use the set and especially to Dakkas for helping Edmund et al with the Briticization -- er, Briticisation -- of the set. People seemed to have a great time.

Also, stats from the second-place game between Cambridge and Oxford Belacqua:

Oxford Belacqua 310, Cambridge 265

Oxford Belacqua

Cameron 4 0 40
Maris 2 0 20
Simon 2 2 10
Zachary 3 0 30

Cambridge

Frances 2 0 20
Martin 1 1 5
Alex 3 0 30
Tom 2 0 20
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
User avatar
Adventure Temple Trail
Auron
Posts: 2754
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:52 pm

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

Kyle wrote:Thanks very much to Evan for letting us use the set and especially to Dakkas for helping Edmund et al with the Briticization -- er, Briticisation -- of the set.
How did this work? Was this a matter of changing "color charge" to "colour charge" and the like, or did the clues/questions change?
Matt Jackson
University of Chicago '24
Yale '14, Georgetown Day School '10
member emeritus, ACF
User avatar
pray for elves
Auron
Posts: 1061
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: 20001

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by pray for elves »

RyuAqua wrote:
Kyle wrote:Thanks very much to Evan for letting us use the set and especially to Dakkas for helping Edmund et al with the Briticization -- er, Briticisation -- of the set.
How did this work? Was this a matter of changing "color charge" to "colour charge" and the like, or did the clues/questions change?
Some American content was converted to British content (e.g., the addition of extra British history replacing some US history). Basically, a small number of the questions changed.
Evan
Georgetown Law Alum, Brandeis Alum, Oak Ridge High Alum
Ex-PACE, Ex-ACF
Edmund
Wakka
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund »

RyuAqua wrote:How did this work? Was this a matter of changing "color charge" to "colour charge" and the like, or did the clues/questions change?
We replaced 16/16 over the course of the set with house-written questions on British history and trash, with the intention of making the set more enjoyable for the British audience by eliminating first-line buzzer races, guaranteed 30 point bonus sets and guaranteed 0 point bonus sets arising from cultural differences in what average university students know on the two sides of the Atlantic.

Specifically we swapped out questions which were ludicrously easy for a British audience (some of the British history, giveaway cricket clues in first line, etc) and those which were too deeply American to be of interest (e.g. very detailed US political history). The lit and the geography weren't touched although this might be something to consider if we try the exercise again.
Edmund Dickinson
UK Quizbowl
University of Oxford '11
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

The geography should have been changed. It's partly my fault because I should have thought to have you ask Evan and Dallas how much of it would be American geography. The reasons I didn't think of it were that (1) the last regular-season ACF tournament I attended was when we hosted regionals in 2008, where something like 11 of the 15 geography tossups were about Africa, and (2) I never write more than 2/2 American geography for a 16-round set, a habit that others do not share.
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
Martin
Kimahri
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:18 am

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Martin »

Just popping in to say hello from Cambridge, and to thank the Oxford guys again for an excellently-run tournament. Hopefully the Varsity match will give us a chance to reciprocate.

With regard to the Briticisation of the questions - I thought it was overall very well done, to the extent that I'm not entirely sure in retrospect which questions had been swapped, although I assume Llewelyn the Great isn't a typical fixture in US competitive quizzing. I didn't think the geography was problematic at all; I didn't notice any US bias in those questions. The literature could certainly have done with a little tweaking though. Even Thornton Wilder's better known works are pretty obscure over here, and teams with an American member did seem to do quite well in these.
Martin O'Leary
University of Cambridge
User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

The spread of ACF to Canada and the UK over the past few years is pretty exciting. I look forward to a future in which Chicago Open style tournaments are run in Toronto and Oxford and give expanded opportunities for quizbowl tourism.
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

Bruce, I have room for you on my couch. Come on over.

Martin, welcome to this forum. I wanted to point out to you that the American canon and distribution evolved over many years and reflects thousands of packets submitted by participating teams. For the sake of convenience, we try to import American tournaments wholesale and then change just a few things. Ideally, a few packet-submission tournaments in this country would eventually produce a much clearer picture of what is or is not gettable for players in this country. Whether this happens depends largely on how active the Cambridge and Manchester teams become.
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
Martin
Kimahri
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:18 am

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Martin »

Oh, I agree completely. You run a packet-submission tournament, and I'll submit a packet. I'll even include pronunciation guides for the Irish mythology questions ("kooka-LANE" my ass).
Martin O'Leary
University of Cambridge
User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

What other American tournaments are there UK mirror plans for? ACF Regionals? Penn Bowl? NAQT SCT again, I imagine.

How open would British quizbowl be to a Chicago Open style event? For those not in the US, Chicago Open is a tournament held during the summer, when US schools aren't in session. Anybody can play (you don't have to be a currnet student), and people can play on teams with whoever they want (they don't all have to go to the same school).
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle »

Morraine Man wrote:What other American tournaments are there UK mirror plans for? ACF Regionals? Penn Bowl? NAQT SCT again, I imagine.

How open would British quizbowl be to a Chicago Open style event? For those not in the US, Chicago Open is a tournament held during the summer, when US schools aren't in session. Anybody can play (you don't have to be a currnet student), and people can play on teams with whoever they want (they don't all have to go to the same school).
The only remaining mirror of an American tournament scheduled in this country is the SCT, which is absolutely the worst possible set to run from the perspective of this country because it is much more heavily American than any ACF or mACF set (because of the extra trash, extra current events, and even more disproportionate influence on American geography). I would much prefer to run something else, but the problem is that people want to go to the ICT.

It is also important, I think, for there to be a tournament run somewhere other than Oxford. The problem is that we have by far the largest and most active team. Cambridge, which is the second largest, isn't terribly convenient, although we would send a bunch of teams to a tournament there. Ideally, we would like for there to be a tournament at some point in Manchester or York, but I don't know how likely that is to happen in the near future.

There are quite a lot of alumni quiz enthusiasts wandering around this island, such that an open tournament would attract quite a lot of people. In fact, we're hosting an open tournament next weekend on Briticized IS sets with a full field of 16. (Yes, you read correctly the source of the questions that will be played by grown adults, many of them extremely experienced) Nevertheless, open tournaments are absolutely not a priority because it's much, much more important to me to get an independent student circuit started up. The other problem with the summer is that I and many others am very likely not to be on this continent (in much the same way that I haven't been in the US at the same time as CO since 2006).
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
Edmund
Wakka
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund »

Those of us who are shortly leaving education would appreciate a regular open tournament in the UK, I think!

Also I have been less down on American geography ever since I beat KHF and Minnesota to the Nevada question at ICT, based entirely on my knowledge of the locations of world speed record attempts.
Edmund Dickinson
UK Quizbowl
University of Oxford '11
Edmund
Wakka
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund »

Martin wrote:Just popping in to say hello from Cambridge, and to thank the Oxford guys again for an excellently-run tournament. Hopefully the Varsity match will give us a chance to reciprocate.

...
I should say thank you for the thank you, too. We're all looking forward to Varsity since it keeps getting more and more competitive!

Yes, the Llywelyn the Great question was mine. Sorry that as an Englishman I can't pronounce Irish folk heroes' names. And as for the literature, it would be an interesting exercise to try to Briticise that - the staffers didn't include anyone who might consider themselves competent to write literature though, so the regional bias of the distribution might have been bettered only at the (severe) expense of question quality.
Edmund Dickinson
UK Quizbowl
University of Oxford '11
User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

There's space on the American college quizbowl calendar in mid to late March. Perhaps some kind of "International Bowl" submission tournament can be hastily arranged, with sites in the US, Canada, and UK.
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6113
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Important Bird Area »

Martin wrote:although I assume Llewelyn the Great isn't a typical fixture in US competitive quizzing.
Well, he wasn't before this weekend!
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
Locked