2011 NAQT MSNCT

[Important Bird Area]

NAQT is pleased to announce that its inaugural 2011 Middle School National Championship Tournament will be held at Chicago's Hyatt Regency O'Hare hotel on the weekend of May 6-8, 2011. This is the same hotel that hosted the 2010 High School National Championship Tournament.

Full details

Registration for the 2011 MSNCT is now open.

Split this into a new thread -JTH

[Mike Bentley]

Registration for the 2011 MSNCT is now open.

Does NAQT plan on flying in staffers for this event, or will there be enough local supply of moderators to staff it at least for this first year?

[jonah]

And who should locals who are interested in staffing contact?

[Important Bird Area]

We're not sure how many staff we'll need to fly in; it depends on the size of the tournament field.

If you would like to volunteer (from any travel distance), send a note to Matt Bruce (matt dot bruce at gmail).

[Important Bird Area]

NAQT is now accepting wildcard and standby requests for the 2011 MSNCT.

To request a wildcard bid, send a summary of your season's results in all forms of academic competition (not just NAQT and not just quiz bowl) to msnct [at] naqt.com. Standby bids can be requested at the same address, but make sure you realize that you are pledging to attend the tournament without a guarantee of competing.

[the return of AHAN]

Disclaimer: I've submitted a wildcard bid for Barrington Station B.
Assuming their 4th place finish out of 28 is good enough to qualify, how far down might NAQT go in terms of accepting wildcards from such a tournament? Say, for example, a Rockford Washington (yeah, Auburn's feeder) team that only lost to Daniel Wright A (already accepted for MSNCT) and Station B....

[Stephen Colbert]

What is NAQT's target field size for the MSNCT? Is there any expectation that the field will increase drastically in the near future? I'm disappointed to see so few teams from Illinois in the current field. Is there any on-going effort to recruit additional teams from Illinois?

Teams like Normal Metcalf, Lincolnshire Daniel Wright A/B, Palatine Quest, Barrington Prairie, Rockford Washington, Bloomington, Buffalo Grove Aptakisic, St. Raymond, King's Academy, and St. Mary's Visitation (Elm Grove, WI) all played well-enough (in my opinion) at the Jr. Wildcat (house-write), Barrington Invitational (CMST II), and/or Gladiator Open (NAQT MS-01) to contend on the national stage. It's likely that NAQT has already reached out to these schools.

Still, I thought there would be more Illinois teams in attendance with the tournament being held in Chicago. Has there been any outreach to downstate Illinois teams who don't have as much access to good quizbowl but could probably be competitive at the MSNCT. Several schools from primarily north central Illinois were pretty successful at the 2010 Albus Dumbledore Memorial (CMST I ) and at least have some experience with good quizbowl: Sycamore, Bloomington Holy Trinity, Stephen Mack, Flanagan, PORTA, etc.

Based on seeding for the IESA state series (not necessarily a reliable metric), I'll try to mention some remaining schools that have been historically successful within Illinois and appear to be having similar success this season: Ottawa Wallace, Ottawa Marquette (formerly St. Columba), Sterling St. Mary's, Peoria Academy, Peoria Norwood, Peoria St. Vincent de Paul, Metamora St. Mary's, Bloomington Cornerstone, Normal Epiphany, Aviston, Columbia ICS, Effingham St. Anthony, DeKalb Huntley, Antioch, Frankfort Summit Hill, Bolingbrook Brooks, Lemont Old Quarry, Dunlap, Streator Northlawn, Ottawa Shepherd, Springfield Franklin, Macomb, Jacksonville Turner, Quincy, Beecher City, Paris Crestwood, Bushnell-Prairie City, Charleston, Dunlap Valley MS, Wilmington, etc. By no means is this list complete or necessarily accurate. I know there are schools/teams that can't afford the registration/travel expenses, haven't heard about the tournament, don't play good quizbowl, don't know about good quizbowl, haven't played enough matches or tournaments to make convincing wild-card bids, etc. But, I do believe there are probably a handful of teams within the list that would make nice additions to the MSNCT.

[the return of AHAN]

Given that the MSNCT begins with scrimmage rounds on the evening of the IESA State Finals, any team that has designs on playing in Bloomington probably sees playing in Rosemont the very next morning as a non-starter. We're signed up for MSNCT, but we're in a tough enough sectional* that we're probably pretty safe from actually having to confront that issue.

* - Same as the 7-time sectional champs, Daniel Wright and the QG-exclusive Hawthorn North

[Important Bird Area]

What is NAQT's target field size for the MSNCT? Is there any expectation that the field will increase drastically in the near future? I'm disappointed to see so few teams from Illinois in the current field. Is there any on-going effort to recruit additional teams from Illinois?

We have in fact reached out to many of these teams, and additional recruitment efforts are ongoing.

[Stephen Colbert]

Given that the MSNCT begins with scrimmage rounds on the evening of the IESA State Finals, any team that has designs on playing in Bloomington probably sees playing in Rosemont the very next morning as a non-starter. We're signed up for MSNCT, but we're in a tough enough sectional* that we're probably pretty safe from actually having to confront that issue.

* - Same as the 7-time sectional champs, Daniel Wright and the QG-exclusive Hawthorn North

Still, only one school from Illinois? IESA state tournament the day before or not, I guess most teams (more likely coaches) are not as hardcore as I wish them to be. And, notoriously tough sectional or not, I'm pretty confident Station would play at both the state tournament and MSNCT given the opportunity. In fact, I'm pretty confident Station will play both.

[the return of AHAN]

I unilaterally decided this merits its own thread.

[Merged into the already-existing MSNCT thread. --JTH]

So when will we know where the teams are from? I see, for example, "Lincoln Middle A", but there are at least 100 middle schools in the US bearing this name.

[Important Bird Area]

Lincoln MS is the one from Schiller Park, IL.

R. will update this for the entire field sometime next week.

[Important Bird Area]

So when will we know where the teams are from? I see, for example, "Lincoln Middle A", but there are at least 100 middle schools in the US bearing this name.

Barrington Station x2 +1 standby (Barrington, IL)
Bate (Danville, KY)
Brandywine Springs (Wilmington, DE)
Brother Fox Latin (Uniondale, NY)
Chisholm (Enid, OK)
Conway Christian (Conway, AR)
Creekland x2 (Canton, GA)
Dawkins (Moore, SC)
Guymon (Guymon, OK)
Independence x2 (Newark, DE)
Kealing x3 (Austin, TX)
Lincoln (Schiller Park, IL)
Longfellow (Falls Church, VA)
Maclay (Tallahassee, FL)
Malvern (Malvern, AR)
Montford (Tallahassee, FL)
New Ellenton (New Ellenton, SC)
Newark Charter x3 (Newark, DE)
St. Ambrose (Woodbury, MN)
St. Charles Borromeo (St. Anthony, MN)
St. Mary's Visitation (Elm Grove, WI)
St. Theresa's (Austin, TX)
St. Thomas More (St. Paul, MN)
Suwannee (Live Oak, FL)
Westmont Hilltop (Johnstown, PA)

[Cassian]

Is there going to be a live blog or some other coverage for MSNCT other than just forum updates? We're going to encourage Kealing's coach to have a Twitter feed during the weekend, but we're not sure if that's going to happen.

[jonah]

Is there going to be a live blog or some other coverage for MSNCT other than just forum updates? We're going to encourage Kealing's coach to have a Twitter feed during the weekend, but we're not sure if that's going to happen.

I'll try to tweet and/or post on Facebook, but no promises.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

No stats or updates from this?

[Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill]

Overheard at @naqt #MSNCT as players filled out surveys about the distribution. "Sports are amazing! You're just a noob."

[Important Bird Area]

No stats or updates from this?

Stats. The top 12 teams will play double-elimination tomorrow.

[etchdulac]

Three Kealing teams into the double-elimination. Scary.

[jonpin]

How was preliminary play conducted? I notice that a 5-3 team (not the one with the most PPTT) is listed as #12, while a higher scoring 5-3 and a 6-2 are both listed as #13. Was it just four groups of nine?

[the return of AHAN]

Three Kealing teams into the double-elimination. Scary.

From what I can see, it'll be an upset if Kealing doesn't claim at least two of the 6 trophies tomorrow. Nice tribute to their depth. Do all of those kids go on to LASA?

[etchdulac]

While I'm far from being the authority, what I know is that Kealing is one of two AISD magnet middle schools, and LASA is the lone (?) magnet high school. While there are kids at LASA who did not go to Kealing, and I presume there are kids at Kealing who won't go on to LASA, it isn't inaccurate to envision the Kealing quiz bowl program as a feeder directly to LASA.

Mr. Flowers/various LASA students, feel free to correct/elaborate.

[Diocletian]

While I'm far from being the authority, what I know is that Kealing is one of two AISD magnet middle schools, and LASA is the lone (?) magnet high school. While there are kids at LASA who did not go to Kealing, and I presume there are kids at Kealing who won't go on to LASA, it isn't inaccurate to envision the Kealing quiz bowl program as a feeder directly to LASA.

This is pretty accurate. While kids are not required to go to LASA after Kealing, most do. I know from talking to them that everybody at MSNCT right now for Kealing intends to come to LASA.

[Important Bird Area]

Was it just four groups of nine?

Yes.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

This is pretty accurate. While kids are not required to go to LASA after Kealing, most do. I know from talking to them that everybody at MSNCT right now for Kealing intends to come to LASA.

Man, i hate to be That Guy, but... that is just not fair.

[AKKOLADE]

This is pretty accurate. While kids are not required to go to LASA after Kealing, most do. I know from talking to them that everybody at MSNCT right now for Kealing intends to come to LASA.

Man, i hate to be That Guy, but... that is just not fair.

Yes it is. Stop it.

[jonah]

Was it just four groups of nine?

Yes.

Except that one bracket had only 8 teams, each of which received one forfeit win (over "Standby 1", which never got filled).

I'm not sure, but I believe the #13 "issue" is explained as follows: After the 9 prelim rounds, Dawkins and Bate were tied for #3 in their bracket at 5-3. They played a one-game playoff, which Dawkins won. Meanwhile, there was a three-way tie for second place in the Newark Charter A/Maclay/Conway Charter bracket. Maclay and Newark Charter A played a half game, which Maclay won for one of the spots; Newark Charter A and Conway Christian played another half game, which Newark Charter A won for the last playoff spot from that bracket. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sniper, No Sniping!]

This is pretty accurate. While kids are not required to go to LASA after Kealing, most do. I know from talking to them that everybody at MSNCT right now for Kealing intends to come to LASA.

Man, i hate to be That Guy, but... that is just not fair.

It definitely sucks from an outsider's perspective they have such a well pipelined program actings as a magnet school/feeder school. Sadly since its not like they have 20 year olds playing or something stupid like that, there's not much basis to complain. The best thing to do when push come to shove is just try to develop a middle school program, I guess? I fully understand that its easier said than done.

[jonah]

So far in the playoffs...
Round 1: Longfellow defeats Dawkins, Kealing C defeats Newark A, Kealing B defeats Maclay, St. Thomas More defeats Independence A, Kealing A defeats St. Charles, and Barrington A defeats Barrington B.
Round 2: Longfellow defeats Kealing C, Kealing B defeats St. Thomas More, Barrington A defeats Kealing A, Maclay eliminates Independence A, Newark A eliminates Dawkins, and Barrington B eliminates St. Charles.

[jonah]

Round 3: Longfellow has a bye, Barrington A defeats Kealing B, Kealing A eliminates Maclay, St. Thomas eliminates Newark Charter A, and Kealing C eliminates Barrington B.

edit: grammar

[Cassian]

Thanks Jonah! Keep the updates coming.

[jonah]

Round 4: Barrington A defeats Longfellow, Kealing A eliminates St. Thomas More (5th place), and Kealing B eliminates Kealing C (5th place).

[jonah]

In round 5, Longfellow powers two overtime tossups to beat Kealing B (4th place). Kealing A defeats Barrington A, so Kealing A and Longfellow will play a game the loser of which is 3rd and the winner of which plays Barrington A for all the marbles.

[Dan-Don]

Are finals starting now? Or is there still a lunchbreak until 1:30?

[Angstrom]

The last two games have not started yet. (And my brother has enough time to make a call home.) So I would guess that there is still a lunchbreak until 1:30, though he didn't say.

[jonah]

The first round of finals will begin at 1:30.

[Important Bird Area]

Congratulations to Kealing A, which defeated Barrington A 455-320 in a one-game final to win the 2011 MSNCT!

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I am officially baffled as to how this bracket worked.

[Irreligion in Bangladesh]

I am officially baffled as to how this bracket worked.

Ditto; a double elimination bracket is one thing when used at HSNCT because you can just throw your hands in the air and shout "there are too many teaaaaams" but with only 12 teams there's got to be a pool play solution here somewhere.

[Stained Diviner]

It was a standard double elimination bracket that assured everybody but the champ would have two losses in seven rounds. If they started with pools, it would have taken a little longer to get everybody but the champ to two losses.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

OK, but the reason I'm confused is that Kealing A was in the loser's bracket while Barrington A was in the winner's bracket when Kealing A beat Barrington A the first time. Wouldn't a purer double elimination bracket not have had that game even happen, instead giving undefeated Barrington A a bye?

[jagluski]

OK, but the reason I'm confused is that Kealing A was in the loser's bracket while Barrington A was in the winner's bracket when Kealing A beat Barrington A the first time. Wouldn't a purer double elimination bracket not have had that game even happen, instead giving undefeated Barrington A a bye?

I wasn't at the tournament, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this is similar to the HSNCT where that round is the round where there is only one undefeated team left, so there is one cross-bracketed game (this happens every year at the HSNCT as well, with the caveat that the undefeated team has never lost before). If you give Barrington A a bye, you also have to give a one-loss team a bye as well.

That round sets up as 1 vs 4 (1 undefeated, 4 one loss) and 2 vs 3 (each with one loss). The only other solution seems to be giving seed #1 two byes and essentially a one-game lead in a final. Instead, the 1 seed plays this game and if they win, they have a 1 game lead in a final. If they lose, it's just a one game final; however, they are already guaranteed to be in it.

[the return of AHAN]

OK, but the reason I'm confused is that Kealing A was in the loser's bracket while Barrington A was in the winner's bracket when Kealing A beat Barrington A the first time. Wouldn't a purer double elimination bracket not have had that game even happen, instead giving undefeated Barrington A a bye?

NO. Barrington Station A defeated Kealing A in round 2 of the double eliminations, sending Kealing A to the loser's bracket. At the end of 4 playoff rounds, my team had defeated Kealing A, Kealing B, and Longfellow, all of whom were undefeated for the weekend coming into our matches. I feel comfortable that it was fair for us to get a pass into the final.

[Stained Diviner]

What Joel said is basically right. If Barrington was given a bye that round, then the tournament would have been one round longer and probably reached the same result. It's double elimination, so Barrington and Kealing are going to play each other three times assuming they beat everybody else and split their first two matches, which is what happened.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Congrats to Kealing, and to Barrington too.

I wonder how many high school teams these guys could beat? Longfellow has beaten many high school clubs this year, including my own when we were lacking our best player.

[jagluski]

Congrats to Kealing, and to Barrington too.

I wonder how many high school teams these guys could beat? Longfellow has beaten many high school clubs this year, including my own when we were lacking our best player.

Kealing has also beaten many high school teams this year.

See: http://www.texasquizbowl.org/d/11Wizard/ and http://www.texasquizbowl.org/d/10hohoho ... dings.html for just a couple examples...

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I wasn't at the tournament, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this is similar to the HSNCT where that round is the round where there is only one undefeated team left, so there is one cross-bracketed game (this happens every year at the HSNCT as well, with the caveat that the undefeated team has never lost before). If you give Barrington A a bye, you also have to give a one-loss team a bye as well.

That round sets up as 1 vs 4 (1 undefeated, 4 one loss) and 2 vs 3 (each with one loss). The only other solution seems to be giving seed #1 two byes and essentially a one-game lead in a final. Instead, the 1 seed plays this game and if they win, they have a 1 game lead in a final. If they lose, it's just a one game final; however, they are already guaranteed to be in it.

I had never heard this rationale being given for the crossover game before, but it makes sense to me now. I'm very non-math oriented so I didn't think that all out.

[Black-throated Antshrike]

I wonder how many high school teams these guys could beat? Longfellow has beaten many high school clubs this year, including my own when we were lacking our best player.

What's amazing is how many of the teams in the playoffs came from our area

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

I wonder how many high school teams these guys could beat? Longfellow has beaten many high school clubs this year, including my own when we were lacking our best player.

What's amazing is how many of the teams in the playoffs came from our area

If by "from our area" you mean "will go to Wilmington Charter next year," then, yes. I do see one "regular" New Castle public school up there, but until one from Kent joins in, i'll have to just keep trying to futile best down here.

[the return of AHAN]

If NAQT cares to avoid being on the same weekend as IESA State Series, they may wish to avoid the weekends of...

May 4, 2012 (Mother's Day is May 13th)
May 3, 2013 (Mother's Day is May 12th)
May 9, 2014 (Mother's Day is the same weekend)

I can't guarantee that avoiding IESA and Mother's Day will improve attendance, but it's worth a shot anyway...