NAQT HSNCT field discussion

[Matt Weiner]

82 powers?

82 POWERS?

Also, being that the matches are being posted in audio form, I guess the plan to mirror the questions is either going to be rethought or rely on an honor system. For my own part I'm going to allow discussion here of any question that is already publicly available through the audio linked on naqt's site, but no other question.

[NotBhan]

82 powers?

82 POWERS?

Also, being that the matches are being posted in audio form, I guess the plan to mirror the questions is either going to be rethought or rely on an honor system. For my own part I'm going to allow discussion here of any question that is already publicly available through the audio linked on naqt's site, but no other question.

Aren't pretty much all the questions linked through audio? I listened to one round (round 6), and it was the full match -- I presume the other rounds available were like that as well. Perhaps it's best for players to hold off on discussion until the tournament organizers make some kind of announcement.

--Raj Dhuwalia (not a member of NAQT)

[vcuEvan]

Wow! Lakeside is 2nd. Never even heard of them. Amazing job, never heard of any quizbowl power in Washington. They beat some excellent teams in doing this too.

[bigtrain]

Montgomery Blair was...well, it was...I'll just describe it.

For the record, Montgomery Blair is missing their number two player.

[jbarnes112358]

82 powers?

82 POWERS.

and 93 regular toss-ups. That's 17.5 toss-ups per game. Their average game was 614-120. They had nearly twice as many points per game as their "nearest" competitor, while their average margin of victory was more than 6 times greater! TJ A is clearly in a class by itself. Hopefully everyone there gets the chance to watch them. You will will be telling your grandchildren about them. And in passing, you might also mention to them that you saw

It would be interesting to see TJ go against some of the elite college teams this year. Matt, even you would probably need some help to defeat them.

[Matt Weiner]

Matt, even you would probably need some help to defeat them.

I'm up for the challenge if they are. Perhaps some sort of benefit match could be arranged for the NSC.

[jbarnes112358]

Wow! Lakeside is 2nd. Never even heard of them. .

Yeah, you remember them They were the school that beat us (MWGS) by a couple of points in KMO a year ago.

[First Chairman]

Matt, even you would probably need some help to defeat them.

I'm up for the challenge if they are. Perhaps some sort of benefit match could be arranged for the NSC.

Sheesh... now you tell me to write another packet.

In 10 prelim games, TJ-A is getting 23.7 bonus points per tossup earned.

[Personamb]

We were 7-3, but just as easily could have been 9-1

To be fair...if we had won either of our two heartbreakers, we likely would have played more difficult teams against which we would not win. I think around 7-3 is where we belong.

-Cliff Chang (New Trier)

[Trevkeeper]

You know, Cliff, I realized that as I was writing it, but I was hoping no one would call me out on it.

[jbarnes112358]

We were 7-3, but just as easily could have been 9-1

To be fair...if we had won either of our two heartbreakers, we likely would have played more difficult teams against which we would not win. I think around 7-3 is where we belong.

-

This may be true. But, when you look at the stats for the top tier of teams (including yours), there seems to be a lot of parity (except TJ A, of course). This would indicate that with a break here and there, a 7-3 team could easily be a 9-1 team. But for the most part, NAQT's system does a pretty good job of seeding teams about where they belong, at least on that Saturday. But, Sunday is another day and unexpected things can happen. Two years ago, our team (MWGS) went 10-0 on Saturday and only managed to finish 5th in the tournament. Nobody should expect anything like that to happen to TJ, but I would say that the other trophies are really up for grabs with a multitude of contenders.

[quizbowlmike]

Has TJ played in any college tournaments this year? I know last year their team played at one and came in second, going 10-2 (i believe) with both losses to Maryland. Perhaps TJ should just play in the ICT next year instead.

Oh, and I would really appreciate it if no one talked about the questions (and if NAQT would take down the audio files) since I'm currently planning on playing in one of those mirrors.... or at least I was planning on it, I might not want to now that I know it would be possible for any of the teams to hear all of the questions.

-Doug

And out of curiosity, what does TJ do at practice?

[First Chairman]

We were 7-3, but just as easily could have been 9-1

To be fair...if we had won either of our two heartbreakers, we likely would have played more difficult teams against which we would not win. I think around 7-3 is where we belong.

-

This may be true. But, when you look at the stats for the top tier of teams (including yours), there seems to be a lot of parity (except TJ A, of course). This would indicate that with a break here and there, a 7-3 team could easily be a 9-1 team. But for the most part, NAQT's system does a pretty good job of seeding teams about where they belong, at least on that Saturday. But, Sunday is another day and unexpected things can happen. Two years ago, our team (MWGS) went 10-0 on Saturday and only managed to finish 5th in the tournament. Nobody should expect anything like that to happen to TJ, but I would say that the other trophies are really up for grabs with a multitude of contenders.

I don't want to tip off my analysis since it establishes my baseline for seeding for the NSC, but I will note that obviously one of the key ingredients to winning is being able to buzz in first. Success is certainly predicated on "buzzer hustle" (aka "aggression index"), and all the teams with 8 or more wins buzz in on a tossup first (power, regular, or neg) over 55% of the time (all tossups and negs per total tossups heard).

[Zip Zap Rap Pants]

Has TJ played in any college tournaments this year? I know last year their team played at one and came in second, going 10-2 (i believe) with both losses to Maryland. Perhaps TJ should just play in the ICT next year instead.

Oh, and I would really appreciate it if no one talked about the questions (and if NAQT would take down the audio files) since I'm currently planning on playing in one of those mirrors.... or at least I was planning on it, I might not want to now that I know it would be possible for any of the teams to hear all of the questions.

-Doug

And out of curiosity, what does TJ do at practice?

^Alter their own DNA and/or inject brain steroids, hence the need for random drug testing in quizbowl but in all seriousness, you have to keep in mind they have the best of both worlds as they receive a good deal of private donations/endowments while at the same time being a public school that receives $$ for gifted education and draws students from the whole area. That's partly why I'm libertarian I guess, b/c if education was privatized, TJ wouldn't be getting as much paper

As for the ICT-only idea, I'm all for it

[dtaylor4]

How large an area we talking here (like the entire state)? Also, do they "recruit" students based on qb skills?

[Trevkeeper]

We finished in the top 20 today. We soundly won our first game against Grosse Pointe, but then lost two close ones to Maggie Walker and Princess Anne.

Against Maggie Walker, we were up by 5 with 4 questions to go, but in the last 4 tossups, we negged twice and they got all of them right, and did well on the bonuses. We ended up losing by 95, but the game was way closer than that score would indicate, especially since they swept the last question.

Against Princess Anne, we lost on the third OT tiebreaker, again. That's starting to get annoying.

So, after we were eliminated we saw TJ A play TJ B, and they were as good as advertised. They won 710 to one or two hundred something. It was impressive, to say the least.

Overall, it was fun, and I hope to do NAQT (or PACE) again.

[bigtrain]

How large an area we talking here (like the entire state)? Also, do they "recruit" students based on qb skills?

Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology recruits students from a population of about two million people from Northern Virginia in what is probobaly the most educated metropolitan region in the world. As far as I know, they do not recruit people for their quiz bowl skills. In fact, I don't think their quiz bowl team gets much recognition at all in their school because "It's Academic" is the only form of quiz bowl that anyone in the region who doesn't play knows about. Compared to their extreme dominance at mainstream quiz bowl, TJ is relatively weak at "It's Academic." Nevertheless, it was an honor for us to squeak out a victory against them on the show.

[jonpin]

Just wondering, is there anyplace that has updated results for today's playoff games?

[Zip Zap Rap Pants]

How large an area we talking here (like the entire state)? Also, do they "recruit" students based on qb skills?

Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology recruits students from a population of about two million people from Northern Virginia in what is probobaly the most educated metropolitan region in the world. As far as I know, they do not recruit people for their quiz bowl skills. In fact, I don't think their quiz bowl team gets much recognition at all in their school because "It's Academic" is the only form of quiz bowl that anyone in the region who doesn't play knows about. Compared to their extreme dominance at mainstream quiz bowl, TJ is relatively weak at "It's Academic." Nevertheless, it was an honor for us to squeak out a victory against them on the show.

Wow man congrats, I didn't know anybody beat them at anything. But yea I heard somewhere that, aside from practice, TJ has quizbowl as an elective course you can take for 1 year. A quizbowl class? My God, that's taking it a bit far, damn near close to cheating if you ask me....

Just to echo jonpin's sentiments, anyone have the playoff results so far?

[Trevkeeper]

Haven't seen them on the website, if you want to ask about a certain team, you can ask me and I'll see if I remember, but it's doubtful.

[No Sollositing On Premise]

...But yea I heard somewhere that, aside from practice, TJ has quizbowl as an elective course you can take for 1 year...

No idea where you heard that. When I was there ('00-'04) we only practiced during activity periods and after school like most teams do. We don't recruit outside of school or anything of the sort. Friends will get/convince other friends to join, we'll have a booth or something at the elective fair, but nothing else. If you're wondering what the heck TJ is, there's a decent Wikipedia article on the subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jef ... Technology

EDIT: And yeah, someone post results soon, mmkay? Please and thank you.

[Stained Diviner]

Through four matches, TJ A was undefeated. They scored over 700 points beating TJ B in their fourth match. There were two other undefeated teams--Lakeside and Solon, who played a match that you can listen to on NAQT's website. Most midwestern teams had short days--we were no exception.

[quizbowlmike]

Not all of us can listen to it... so can someone please give some results to that?

[kws]

Where are the audio rounds?

[QuizBowlRonin]

Where are the audio rounds?

http://www.fraughtmachine.com/9minutes/

Round 15:

After Solon negs and Lakeside gets the tossup, the following exclaimations were heard:

Lakeside: "Nice!"

Solon: "Dumbass!"

[jbarnes112358]

TJ A beat Lakeside in the finals. The big news is that it was a relatively close game, with TJ coming from behind.

[Zip Zap Rap Pants]

...But yea I heard somewhere that, aside from practice, TJ has quizbowl as an elective course you can take for 1 year...

No idea where you heard that. When I was there ('00-'04) we only practiced during activity periods and after school like most teams do. We don't recruit outside of school or anything of the sort. Friends will get/convince other friends to join, we'll have a booth or something at the elective fair, but nothing else. If you're wondering what the heck TJ is, there's a decent Wikipedia article on the subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jef ... Technology

EDIT: And yeah, someone post results soon, mmkay? Please and thank you.

Ahh I apologize for saying that then. The guy who told me that was probably thinking of the activities period and whatnot. A lot of schools have activities periods I'm sure, but I wish we did too....


Anyway, congrats to Lakeside. You know the one thing about naqt nationals that I really don't like is how even if lakeside had won that match, they still would probably lose since they have to win twice, but that's just the nature of double elimination I suppose. One way I think they should alter it is by not giving the last winning bracket team an eternity of bye-rounds. There should never be 2 teams with a bye, in other words. Keep 'em playin

Also, I'd like to say, watch out next year, 'cuz it'll be wide open. TJ's graduating a and b teams, and then our a team will be 3 seniors and 1 junior (who was 6th highest scorer ). C-ville should also be good, gonzaga, others....man it'll be tight.

[bigtrain]

gonzaga

Gonzaga loses Kettler for next year. He is one of the single best players in the country...they wont be a very strong force next year without him.

[NoahMinkCHS]

You know the one thing about naqt nationals that I really don't like is how even if lakeside had won that match, they still would probably lose since they have to win twice, but that's just the nature of double elimination I suppose.

I can see your objection, but keep in mind that (at least according to Matt Bruce's post in the other thread) TJ had already beaten Lakeside twice before the finals, and both were otherwise undefeated. Even if Lakeside had beaten TJ twice, they'd both have two losses, and both be 2-2 head to head, the only difference being when the losses happened. Under the more "traditional" single-elim model, Lakeside (had they won the match) would be 1-2 vs. TJ; based on that, could they credibly claim to be the better team?

I think NAQT has it at least partially right where many others have it wrong -- a team that's been better all weekend shouldn't come in second based on one game, especially given how many quiz bowl matches (esp. between top-tier teams) can go either way.

[dtaylor4]

Dude, I also wish we had activity periods for quiz bowl. Since other activites (band, athletics, choir, etc.) have classes and most also have after-school practice, why not quiz bowl?

[Zip Zap Rap Pants]

gonzaga

Gonzaga loses Kettler for next year. He is one of the single best players in the country...they wont be a very strong force next year without him.

for real? i thought michael kettler was a junior, my bad. as for what noah mink was saying, i realize TJ would still win, that's not my complaint. my complaint is that double elimination finals are never very exciting, so if you had the last winning bracket team keep playing it might come down to one game rather than two, though in this case TJ still probably would have won every game.

[BuzzerZen]

And out of curiosity, what does TJ do at practice?

Nothing too special. Most serious practice occurs during after school practice on Thurs. and Fri., when we pretty much just read questions for two hours. We step it up to three a week prior to Nationals. The aforementioned activities period is often less intense practice-wise. Our philosophy is that playing quizbowl is the best way to practice for quizbowl, so we don't memorize lists or discuss buzzwords or anything. Learning for its own sake is also good. In case anyone is interested, TJ's A team next year will consist of Evan from C (i.e. yours truly), and Charlotte, Scott, and Neel from B.

[No Sollositing On Premise]

TJ's A team next year will consist of Evan from C (i.e. yours truly), and Charlotte, Scott, and Neel from B.

TJ may be graduating one of the best quizbowl classes ever (Sam, Jacob, Dan, Will, Alex, Nick, Colleen, Moki, David, and Amy is one helluva group, though the latter two may have quit or something), but that is not a team to take lightly. Especially underrated is Charlotte. Her Nationals performance was not a good indication of how strong she is; she'll probably be one of the best science players in the country next year.

[solonqb]

After Solon negs and Lakeside gets the tossup, the following exclaimations were heard:

Lakeside: "Nice!"

Solon: "Dumbass!"

This was courtesy of the dearly departed sidar's irascibility, and of me not counting quadrants correctly.

[Zip Zap Rap Pants]

hey evan congratulations on the neg award! though andy kravis might have gotten it if he had played every game. hey is the wil with one l graduating or will he be a senior next year? i wonder if parallel dimensions and stuff would open up if there was a match b/t tj a with wil (say if someone couldn't show up) and our b team next year. two evans and two wills, altho the fact that ours has 2 l's takes some of the fun out of it

[Quizbowlman4]

"Having played (and lost to) Lakeside twice, I really do believe that they are the best team on the west coast. What impresses me most is that they come from an area that, as I understand it, has very few, if any, NAQT events."--Kevin from Mission San Jose (about 50 posts ago)]

"As for Lakeside, there is no way that a team that has played in (as far as I can tell) one NAQT tournament can make any sort of move at nationals. Mission San Jose won the tournament, despite losing to Lakeside twice, because they are a better team. Lakeside must have had two magnificent games, but they don't have the experience or skill of MSJ. I believe one of Lakeside's victories over MSJ was in overtime, as well. While I am glad that more teams from the west coast are making the move to nationals, I don't think they will be any sort of force."--Me

Just give me a neg five on that one and kevin a power (not his first, as he was third in the tournament in overall scoring). With two teams in the top five, should the west coast start to get some respect? I say we wait and see if it lasts a few years first.

Anybody needing a reminder on how good TJ is should have watched them play the final (unused) packet of questions, against moderators, where they rattled of six consecutive powers in building, i believe, a 375-40 lead against a team that included college national champions. That said, TJ A will not be anywhere near this good next year, so perhaps we should turn attention to Maggie Walker and Catholic Central, both of whom performed well, and were led by underclassmen all stars.

[Matt Weiner]

Anybody needing a reminder on how good TJ is should have watched them play the final (unused) packet of questions, against moderators, where they rattled of six consecutive powers in building, i believe, a 375-40 lead against a team that included college national champions.

Who, specifically?

[cvdwightw]

With two teams in the top five, should the west coast start to get some respect? I say we wait and see if it lasts a few years first.

Quickly, a list of the top-finishing teams from the West Coast at HSNCT:
2000: 12, 23 (out of 52)
2001: T5, 14 (out of 40)
2002: T5, 13 (out of 54)
2003: T8, 35 (out of 62)
2004: T19, 30 (out of 64)


It's clear that the west coast has been producing quality teams for some time, and some that were contending for the championship well into Sunday. However, there are two main things that give the west coast a somewhat-deserved lack of respect:

1. Inability of any team to actually win a national championship.
2. A lack of teams and events, compared to everywhere else that routinely sends playoff contenders.

In conclusion, the teams that show up to nationals from the west coast have earned their respect, but the area as a whole hasn't.

[quizbowlmike]

Could someone translate for me who the TJ A players actually are? Ice Man, Maverick, Goose, and Rabi would be... ? (and please dont say Val Kilmer, Tom Cruise, ...)

[jewtemplar]

We rotated names, which may have resulted in the rather neat clustering of individual results. For the playoffs, Jacob Oppenheim was Rabbi, I (Sam Lederer) was Maverick, Will Sullivan was Iceman, and Dan Wright was Goose.

[solonplaya]

Solon: "Dumbass!"

That was me. It was difficult for me to control my quiet (nearly silent) outbursts.

[solonqb]

Anybody needing a reminder on how good TJ is should have watched them play the final (unused) packet of questions, against moderators, where they rattled of six consecutive powers in building, i believe, a 375-40 lead against a team that included college national champions.

Who, specifically?

Two of the four were Colby Burnett of Northwestern, and perhaps Ross Ritterman of Berkeley.

Edit: removed mistake

[steven-lamp]

I think Kevin Roth played as well.

[jagluski]

The staff team featured:

Matthew Sherman of UCLA (Was a ICT Champ)
Ross Ritterman of Berkeley
Jim Puls of CMU
Erik Roth of Iowa
Scott Coon of ?
Colby Burnett of Northwestern

[solonplaya]

The staff team featured:

Matthew Sherman of UCLA (Was a ICT Champ)
Ross Ritterman of Berkeley
Jim Puls of CMU
Erik Roth of Iowa
Scott Coon of ?
Colby Burnett of Northwestern

Unfortunately none of the other staff members *ahem * couldn't face off against TJ.

By the way, about the final match: TJ at one point was down by more than 200 points (they actually had -5). Does anyone think that they were simply "goofing around" since Lakeside had to win two matches to beat them?

[Romero]

Many of the staff members had various roles in preparing the packets (writing, editting, difficulty checking, playtesting). It is my guess that a dream staff team (say featuring R. and ) is not possible due to those roles.

[matt979]

Scott Coon played at Iowa State and Illinois. Although I'd been reluctant to do Oscar speech style kudos (the implicit subtext is self-congratulation), it's still worth noting that you can't have 48 simultaneous game rooms without 100+ top-notch staff who deserve be recognized.

A previous post mentioned Jim Puls, Greg McWhirter, and Colin Brown for their stat room help. Also worth singling out Tim Woodward for buzzer control and 2006 HSNCT Logistics Coordinator Joel Gluskin for learning the ropes and running the consolation rounds.

Pardon the mangled format and incomplete (I hope not incorrect) affiliations.

Mike Baker Pitt
Craig Barker NAQT Member
Eric Bell NAQT Member
Billy Beyer Florida
Colin Brown Oklahoma State
Matt Bruce NAQT Member
Sarah Bruce Chicago alumna
Mike Burger NAQT Member
Colby Burnett Northwestern
Earl Cahill BYU alumnus
Scott Callaghan USC alumnus
Mark Coen BU alumnus / TRASH
Kevin Comer Florida
Scott Coon Illinois alumnus
Tom Egan Maine South coach
Susan Ferrari Chicago
Steve Frappier WUSTL faculty
Paul Gauthier Wheaton North
Joel Gluskin WUSTL alumnus
Dan Goff Maryland
Karna Gowda Mundelein
Mark Haase Loyola Acad.
R. Robert Hentzel NAQT Member
Brian Hight Virginia alumnus
Eric Hillemann Carleton coach
Steve Holz
Jeremy Horwitz Stanford alumnus
Brad Houston Maryland
Eric Huff erstwhile Dorman coach
Ben Jackson Iowa State alumnus
Ken Jennings NAQT Member
Julia Khait UC-Santa Cruz alumna
Dwight Kidder NAQT Member
Erin Korber CMU
Jen Kraemer UMich alumna
Shelly Kubicek NAQT spouse
Chad Kubicek NAQT Member
Eric Kwartler Texas
Matt Laird Loyola Acad.
Andrew Lau Mundelein
Mike Laudermith
Aaron Layton Polk Community College alumnus
Greg Lindsay Illinois alumnus
Angela Lyon Iowa
Lawrence Maligaya Mundelein
Richard Mason Caltech alumnus
Maribeth Mason Caltech alumna
Chris Mayfield Iowa State alumnus
Tim McElroy Chicago
Greg McWhirter Pitt
Sarah Milton
Anne Mitchell UMich alumna
Ken Mitchell WUSTL alumnus
Justin Moles Northwestern
Rory Molinari UMich alumnus
Emily Moore UMich
Paul Nelson UM-Rolla
Tracy Oliver UM-Rolla
Kevin Olmstead NAQT Member
Doug O'Neal Allegheny
Vishal Panchmatia Rice
Dan Passner Brandeis
Michael Philpy UMich
Emily Pike NAQT Member
David Press Chicago
Jim Puls CMU
James Quintong Northwester alumnus / TRASH
Robin Richards Georgia
Ross Ritterman Berkeley alumnus / Bay Area Academic League
Chris Rodgers Michigan State
Chris Romero Texas Quiz Bowl Alliance / A&M
Erik Roth Pitt
Vishal Saxena Northwestern
Kristin Scheel Florida State
Karl Schmidt Illinois alumnus
Brandy Shattuck Michigan alumna
Matthew Sherman UCLA
Gary Shumard Florida
Todd Skelton Mundelein
Josh Sokoloski
Lori Sommars Wheaton North
Greg Sorenson BU alumnus / TRASH
Mike Sorice Illinois
Bill Stallard UM-Rolla
Mitchell Szczepanczyk Michigan/Chicago
Frank Thomas Texas Quiz Bowl Alliance
David Thorsley UMich
Andrew Toy UM-Dearborn
Steve Traicoff UMich
Jay Turetzky WUSTL
Ellen Turpen Northwestern
Travis Vitello Florida
Andrew Wehrman Northwestern
Jeremy White Rolla alumnus
Sarah Whitfield Florida
Leah Williams Chicago alumna
Tim Woodward USC alumus
Joe Wright Pitt / USC / TRASH
Andrew Yaphe Chicago
Jeff Zahnen Florida
Geoff Zmyslowski UMich

[Matt Weiner]

By the way, about the final match: TJ at one point was down by more than 200 points (they actually had -5). Does anyone think that they were simply "goofing around" since Lakeside had to win two matches to beat them?

I think it's rather insulting to both teams to suggest that. More likely, the second-best NAQT team in the country was able to get some questions off the best one, then TJ got some more questions later?

[jewtemplar]

By the way, about the final match: TJ at one point was down by more than 200 points (they actually had -5). Does anyone think that they were simply "goofing around" since Lakeside had to win two matches to beat them?

I can assure you we were not goofing. We actually have quite an affinity for taking an early lead and winning a comfortable game with a large margin of victory. Our prior dominant games against Lakeside did not adequately prime us to have to come back, which partially explains the midgame lockup.

[tj b boy]

It seems to me that when it comes to tossups, TJ A has mercureal players and solid ones. The mercureal ones have a tendency to compete with their own team and buzz far sooner than they actually know the answer, but when they're confident this results in powers. On the rare occasions they're unconfident, it turns into negs. Meanwhile, the solid guys pile on the questions, and they tend to get powers too, but not as often because they wait a few more words.

So TJ got nervous, the mercureal ones piled on the negs, the solid ones were able to take control, and confidence returned. But if you knew what to look for the shock was palpable up on stage. It was pretty cool, like watching the Yankees give up 11 runs to the Devil Rays in one inning, except this time the Yankees didn't get swept by the Rays. A Lakeside - Devil Rays comparison is also unfair, but you get the message.

And they're good at bonus conversion too.