Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

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Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:11 am

Okay, so I'm going to take Andrew up on his suggestion to start a (brief, one hopes) thread about this subtopic from the ACF Regionals discussion.

I didn't play or moderate at ACF Regionals, but I've been interested by the casual dismissal of any worry about a repeated toss-up answer line (Alexander, the Great guy from Macedon, apparently). I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm surprised that so many of the experienced/elite have noted that there is no basis for an "assumption" that a toss-up answer won't come up again in the same tournament so long as unique clues are used for each.

I'm pretty sure this is not an accurate historical position. Haven't we always figured that a toss-up answer shouldn't come up again? I know I've argued that an answer that has shown up is not a repeat when it's noted as a clue in another question, nor when it's a bonus part with unique clues/context, but am I wrong in believing that, at least in the past, the expectation was that a toss-up answer doesn't come up twice in a set unless there's a mistake?

In any case, having edited numerous Delta Burkes where a repeat TU has occurred, I'm sympathetic with the editors and don't care that this happened at Regionals. I'm more interested in confirming whether I'm wrong to think that the suggestion that a player is mistaken to assume that something won't come up twice as a toss-up answer. And just in case, I'm aware that in quiz bowl one is required to know things and buzz no matter how often they've come up, etc.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Cheynem » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:50 am

Here's my Dwight Wynne-esque scale of repeat tolerance:

UNACCEPTABLE
Toss-Ups on the Same Answer that Use the Same Clues in the Same Category: Two George Washington tossups both about his military career, both using the same battle clues. This is just a mistake and no editor would defend using it.

PROBABLY UNACCEPTABLE
Toss-Ups on the Same Answer in the Same Category: You could do fine tossups on George Washington's military career and his presidency, I guess, and they wouldn't overlap, but two history tossups on George Washington in the same tournament is probably pushing it. Tossups on countries is a little different, I suppose, but even still, I think it's a little bad form to have two history tossups on like France, even if they are from completely different time periods.

ODD BUT ACCEPTABLE
Toss-Up and Bonus Part on the Same Answer in the Same Category: I give more leeway here because the bonus part has less clues to work with. Thus, you could in fact do a tossup on George Washington and ask about him in a history bonus part if you need a hard or easy part. This is a gray area for some quizbowlers, but I don't see a problem with it, provided the clues don't overlap.

COMPLETELY ACCEPTABLE
Toss-Ups (or Bonus Parts) on the Same Answer in Different Categories: You want a history and an art tossup on George Washington? You want a literature and a history tossup on the Soviet Union? Sure! Why is this a problem? The knowledge base is completely different (for the most part).
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Red-necked Phalarope » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:22 pm

Noted mediocre player me would probably hesitate, at the very least, before buzzing in with an answer that's already come up in the tournament. Though I don't have a huge problem with us setting the social norms such that "repeat" means "questions with non-repeated clues" (or, more precisely, what Mike just posted), I think that the perception that "repeat" can mean "questions with the same answer line" is still in the minds of many.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:46 pm

Ah--so the Alexander questions were of different categories (like one was, what--art? Or literature?). I didn't see that specified in the ACF Regionals thread. However, a quick re-scan shows that one of the Alex questions was a bonus part, so I already have no beef. Again, I was just curious that it appeared that many knowledgeable folks were asserting, I thought, that two TUs on the same answer line were fine as long as no clues were repeated, even if they were both of the same category (as in Mike's "Probably Unacceptable" section above).
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Sir Thopas » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:55 pm

ValenciaQBowl wrote:Ah--so the Alexander questions were of different categories (like one was, what--art? Or literature?). I didn't see that specified in the ACF Regionals thread. However, a quick re-scan shows that one of the Alex questions was a bonus part, so I already have no beef. Again, I was just curious that it appeared that many knowledgeable folks were asserting, I thought, that two TUs on the same answer line were fine as long as no clues were repeated, even if they were both of the same category (as in Mike's "Probably Unacceptable" section above).
HISTORY:
[10] Persian emperor Darius III lost to this Macedonian at the earlier Battle of Issus. This son of Philip II also won at the Granicus River and Gaugamela.
ANSWER: Alexander the Great [accept Alexander III of Macedon]

LITERATURE:
[10] The Shahnameh details the exploits of the “age of heroes,” which ends with the conquest of Persia by this Macedonian ruler, whose relationship with the Persian boy Bagoas is the subject of many novels by Mary Renault.
ANSWER: Alexander the Great [or Alexander III of Macedon; or Sikander; prompt on Alexander]
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Cheynem » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:57 pm

There was a music bonus that also used Alexander the Great's name as well.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:21 pm

So they were BOTH bonus parts? Oh, man--I wish that had been clear, as I wouldn't have started this lame thread. I'm sure some (all?) of it was my own sloppy reading. Thanks, Guy.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by theMoMA » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:47 pm

I pretty much agree with Mike's categories here. I'm sympathetic to the idea that some players, especially new ones, don't know that answers will be repeated. But we're talking about a maximum of a handful of questions per set, and anyone with a bone to pick over the questions can always ask the head editor or start a thread here, which will hopefully spread the word that answer lines will sometimes overlap.

Also, it's probably more important for us to work on communication issues between editors (and on time management in general) to fix actual repeat issues.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Kyle » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:14 pm

My understanding has been that you should not be able to learn something in one round that would allow you to score points in another round.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by ThisIsMyUsername » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:41 pm

Cheynem wrote:There was a music bonus that also used Alexander the Great's name as well.
I am not aware of this.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Cheynem » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:44 pm

Whoops, it might have been a lit bonus--it was something about "alexandrine" form, which I thought was the bonus on ballads, which I guess still could have been a lit bonus.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Fond du lac operon » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:08 pm

Kyle wrote:My understanding has been that you should not be able to learn something in one round that would allow you to score points in another round.
Strictly speaking, this was my problem with the Alexander bonus repeat -- they both referred to him as a "Macedonian ruler" or similar and dealt with his invasion of Persia, so they were close enough that someone metagaming might say, hm, this can't be Alexander, he's already come up with a very similar clue. Also, someone who knew literally nothing about Alexander the Great could conceivably guess it from "Macedonian ruler," although that's likely not a real concern since I imagine most quizbowlers playing this set know the rudiments of his biography.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Chimango Caracara » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:28 pm

The only repeat I had a major problem with at ACF Regionals was in one packet that mentioned Sousa's King Cotton march in a bonus part about him and then included a later bonus with "cotton" as an answer. Both explicitly referred to the King Cotton slogan. They were both the easy parts of their respective bonuses and it's unlikely that any teams would have missed "cotton" without the Sousa clue, but it was a pretty glaring repeat within a single packet.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:43 pm

We could just announce before the tournament that some answers may come up more than once.
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Re: Repeated Toss-Up Answer Lines in a Set

Post by cvdwightw » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:08 pm

Cheynem wrote:PROBABLY UNACCEPTABLE
Toss-Ups on the Same Answer in the Same Category: You could do fine tossups on George Washington's military career and his presidency, I guess, and they wouldn't overlap, but two history tossups on George Washington in the same tournament is probably pushing it. Tossups on countries is a little different, I suppose, but even still, I think it's a little bad form to have two history tossups on like France, even if they are from completely different time periods.
Also going here is "Toss-Ups on the Same Answer in Different Categories in the Same Packet." cf. HSNCT 2009 and "Ethiopia."
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