World Leader All-Star Teams?

[Mewto55555]

Inspired by a discussion a friend of mine and I had:


If you could pick, for each country, 4 of its present or historical "leaders" (for some appropriate definition of leader), and make them their quizbowl all-star team, which country would win the tournament? What would be the lineups for each? Assume the questions would probably be modern, pyramidal, and around high-school level difficulty, whereas the leaders would be selected at whatever their "peak" was (so if they suffered memory loss late in life, they'd be plucked from a past point before they had memory loss, etc) and have perfect knowledge of English.

[Cheynem]

What's the distro?

[Mewto55555]

What's the distro?

Like a standard HS housewrite or HSAPQ set. I'd bet slight tweaks don't make a huge difference though.

[Cheynem]

It seems like the guaranteed American or British literature/history favors English-speaking cultures (although not necessarily).

[kayli]

I think England would almost certainly be the best. Quizbowl is fairly anglocentric as it stands, and with centuries of very dedicated liberal arts education, they'd almost certainly get the majority of the literature and arts tossups. Margaret Thatcher was originally a chemist, which means she'd probably get the most science of anyone at this fictional tournament (low bar) and a lot of modern history. Victoria would probably get a lot of the other history because she was there for it or otherwise was knowledgeable. Throw in Henry VIII and David Cameron, and it's looking pretty solid.

[Bartleby]

Are we to assume that these leaders also only have knowledge of world events up to the point at which we've 'plucked' them?

To use Kay's example above, for instance, Victoria only knows things until (at latest), 1901?

[Dirty Water]

The three-man team of Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il, and Kim Jong-Un would win by posting a four-digit score in every game they played.

More seriously, would America be able to make good use of its distribution advantage? Surely we'd fare better than most on American history and lit. Hoover was a mining engineer, so he might have some science knowledge, and I'm sure someone knows social science/philosophy. Eisenhower or FDR would have excellent knowledge of the World Wars, and some of the Founding Fathers probably know a good deal of European history as well.

[Chef Curry]

I think England would almost certainly be the best. Quizbowl is fairly anglocentric as it stands, and with centuries of very dedicated liberal arts education, they'd almost certainly get the majority of the literature and arts tossups. Margaret Thatcher was originally a chemist, which means she'd probably get the most science of anyone at this fictional tournament (low bar) and a lot of modern history. Victoria would probably get a lot of the other history because she was there for it or otherwise was knowledgeable. Throw in Henry VIII and David Cameron, and it's looking pretty solid.

England would definitely be a good contender for the win with all the lit and history. As for other countries . . . I think India's lineup would be Jawaharlal Nehru because he, among other things, was the first pm of an independent India , Mahatma Gandhi(if he counts as a leader) for obvious reasons, if not Lal Bahadur Shastri, the 2nd pm and he was originally a railway engineer so he probably knew a decent amount of science. Also if Gandhi doesn't count we can use Chandragupta Maurya; he will know a good amount of Alexander the Great era history. For the final player or a sub with Nehru, India can use Akbar from ancient Mughal empire era history.

[yeah viv talk nah]

I think England would almost certainly be the best. Quizbowl is fairly anglocentric as it stands, and with centuries of very dedicated liberal arts education, they'd almost certainly get the majority of the literature and arts tossups. Margaret Thatcher was originally a chemist, which means she'd probably get the most science of anyone at this fictional tournament (low bar) and a lot of modern history. Victoria would probably get a lot of the other history because she was there for it or otherwise was knowledgeable. Throw in Henry VIII and David Cameron, and it's looking pretty solid.

England would definitely be a good contender for the win with all the lit and history. As for other countries . . . I think India's lineup would be Jawaharlal Nehru because he, among other things, was the first pm of an independent India , Mahatma Gandhi(if he counts as a leader) for obvious reasons, if not Lal Bahadur Shastri, the 2nd pm and he was originally a railway engineer so he probably knew a decent amount of science. Also if Gandhi doesn't count we can use Chandragupta Maurya; he will know a good amount of Alexander the Great era history. For the final player or a sub with Nehru, India can use Akbar from ancient Mughal empire era history.

In addition, India's got:
Rabindranath Tagore and Rudyard Kipling (if he counts) for lit; Ramachandran, Chandrasekhar, SN Bose, Ramanujan, Brahmagupta for science/math; Amartya Sen and Manmohan Singh for econ; Ravi Shankar, AR Rahman, Ilayaraja for music; the list goes on and on.

(assuming that these people count as cultural/societal "leaders")

[Sniper, No Sniping!]

Zimbabwe/Southern Rhodesia - Ian Smith was a pretty smart dude; not saying he'd win it, but he could put Salisbury on his back for a third-place finish if he had too. Mugabe is a risk to be that guy who negs the last tossup when his team is up by 45. Him and Canaan Banana will be playing tic-tac toe, notably two seats from Ian Smith. No one is sitting in the empty chair.

[Stained Diviner]

Vaclav Havel could dominate in lit, but I don't know whether the other Czechs would provide enough support.

I would think that the UK would want to play Churchill.

Merkel's science knowledge and Kohl's history knowledge would make them a solid team.

[Helmuth von Moltke]

If you can put Pershing, Sherman, MacArthur and Patton on one team, the intimidation factor will be too high for opposition.

[theMoMA]

Here's my four-person team from any country, any time.

Winston Churchill. Probably the best prospect. He was a Nobel-winning author for his comprehensive historical works, he was incredibly well-read in both literature and history, and he took up painting late in life and had a lifelong admiration for the arts. If any historical world leader could sit down and score meaningful points on tough questions, I think it'd be Churchill. I think he'd also be most likely to one-up Jerry in chair-throwing antics or engage in a heated in-game debate with Sorice, both of which would be amazing to see; someone invite this guy to CO.

Thomas Jefferson. Although his lack of coverage post-1826 would be tough to cover up, Jefferson is basically an English-speaking Voltaire who also happened to be a president, so he should probably be on the team. I think he would be the best player on literature, history, philosophy, and arts up until the early 19th-century, not to mention dominant on all things 18th-century American and European. I also think he'd be a quick study at the game, and would turn into a ridiculously good science fraud player after about five tournaments.

Angela Merkel. She got her doctorate in physical chemistry, making her the rare world leader science player. She also has coverage of 20th- and 21st-century events and culture. Her perspective as a modern, European-educated person would probably let her make impressive buzzes at weird times, much like Kristiaan de Greve used to do.

Jimmy Carter. He did graduate work in nuclear physics, making him another of the rare science players in the pool (I considered Hirohito and his marine biologist knowledge for this spot; with the right ecology-heavy bio distribution, Hirohito would be a real commodity). He has also written a historical novel about the revolutionary war, and he seems to be pretty well-versed in certain kinds of history and literature. Because of his activism, he can hopefully mop up on "modern world," but from a more American perspective than Merkel.

[Auks Ran Ova]

Teddy Roosevelt read like a madman and would be a pretty excellent lit/history player even without being brought up to modern speed. I'd put him on Andrew's team probably over one of the scientists, since wide-ranging humanities players will always be more valuable than scientists with a very specific area of study and no evidence of quizbowl generalism.

[theMoMA]

I considered TR for Jefferson's spot, but I wanted to have a couple living people on the team to handle more current stuff. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a modern philosopher-king in the Jefferson/TR/Churchill mold to slot into one of the Merkel/Carter spots. (Despite the fact that Obama's a former lawprof, his intellectual pursuits seem to have a pretty narrow focus. That said, the all-president roster of TR, Jefferson, Carter, and Obama would be formidable, and would probably be the best all-from-one-country team you could make. And I think Obama is the 4th scorer on that team.)

[theMoMA]

Team Britain would probably be pretty awesome, too. Churchill and Disraeli would combine to lock down lit and history before 1950, and presumably there are some more modern PMs who had multifaceted interests as well.

[Helmuth von Moltke]

Team Britain would probably be pretty awesome, too. Churchill and Disraeli would combine to lock down lit and history before 1950, and presumably there are some more modern PMs who had multifaceted interests as well.

As well as (even though she was dreadful) Margaret Thatcher, who had an extensive chemistry background.

[Red Panda Cub]

Team Britain would probably be pretty awesome, too. Churchill and Disraeli would combine to lock down lit and history before 1950, and presumably there are some more modern PMs who had multifaceted interests as well.

Harold Macmillan is being seriously underrated in this thread.

[merv1618]

Bill Clinton would be a very strong social sciences player because of all the stuff he studied while he was a Rhodes Scholar, plus current events because of his whole still being alive thing.

[Muriel Axon]

I considered Hirohito and his marine biologist knowledge for this spot; with the right ecology-heavy bio distribution, Hirohito would be a real commodity

Goodluck Jonathan has a PhD in zoology, so potentially he could also fill this role.

[Fado Alexandrino]

Stephen Harper played a bit of Reach for the Top in high school. I don't know how that would translate into modern quizbowl knowledge, though. (I think he lost his one and only televised game).

[Stained Diviner]

When this happens, Peru will rue the day that they voted down Mario Vargas Llosa.

[Edmund]

Team Britain would probably be pretty awesome, too. Churchill and Disraeli would combine to lock down lit and history before 1950, and presumably there are some more modern PMs who had multifaceted interests as well.

Harold Macmillan is being seriously underrated in this thread.

Not to mention Michael Foot.

[Cassian]

My Team USA -

TR - He covers military history, along with biology and natural sciences, plus he's just a well-read guy. Also, I assume he'd do well at 19th century American politics, and all manner of election of 1912 tossups. I would worry about him having a negging problem.

T. Jefferson - early American art and architecture, classical lit, Greek and Roman myth, some religion, plus all that 'Founding Father' stuff.

J. Carter - As mentioned, I think he's your best overall science player, and fairly well-versed in the 'world since 1970' category. Also, I think he's the best option for captain.

Lastly, even though I'm not a fan of substitution, I'd rotate Bill Clinton and President Obama for the fourth spot. I think both would be credible social science, geography and current events players, and I think they would be fun guys to have on the team.

Others considered (in no particular order) - JFK, James Garfield, Dwight Eisenhower, Richard Nixon

[Habitat_Against_Humanity]

My Team USA -

TR - He covers military history, along with biology and natural sciences, plus he's just a well-read guy. Also, I assume he'd do well at 19th century American politics, and all manner of election of 1912 tossups. I would worry about him having a negging problem.

T. Jefferson - early American art and architecture, classical lit, Greek and Roman myth, some religion, plus all that 'Founding Father' stuff.

J. Carter - As mentioned, I think he's your best overall science player, and fairly well-versed in the 'world since 1970' category. Also, I think he's the best option for captain.

Lastly, even though I'm not a fan of substitution, I'd rotate Bill Clinton and President Obama for the fourth spot. I think both would be credible social science, geography and current events players, and I think they would be fun guys to have on the team.

Others considered (in no particular order) - JFK, James Garfield, Dwight Eisenhower, Richard Nixon

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Woodrow Wilson. Can some history person tell me why he shouldn't be in here?

[merv1618]

My Team USA -

TR - He covers military history, along with biology and natural sciences, plus he's just a well-read guy. Also, I assume he'd do well at 19th century American politics, and all manner of election of 1912 tossups. I would worry about him having a negging problem.

T. Jefferson - early American art and architecture, classical lit, Greek and Roman myth, some religion, plus all that 'Founding Father' stuff.

J. Carter - As mentioned, I think he's your best overall science player, and fairly well-versed in the 'world since 1970' category. Also, I think he's the best option for captain.

Lastly, even though I'm not a fan of substitution, I'd rotate Bill Clinton and President Obama for the fourth spot. I think both would be credible social science, geography and current events players, and I think they would be fun guys to have on the team.

Others considered (in no particular order) - JFK, James Garfield, Dwight Eisenhower, Richard Nixon

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Woodrow Wilson. Can some history person tell me why he shouldn't be in here?

He'd probably get shadowed and only put up fourteen points per game.

[Cassian]

I felt like TR and Wilson had too much overlap, unless they were going to up the racism distribution for this tournament. I'd consider him for my B team if he could pick up world lit or poetry or something.

[bsmith]

Stephen Harper and Kim Campbell are slam-dunk choices for Team Canada- they played Reach for the Top (Harper scored more than half of his team's points, and he only lost his opening match because he was pitted against the eventual national champions).

Mike Pearson was a history professor and well-versed in world affairs, so he would probably be the history specialist.

The fourth player isn't going to be great. The only "science" we have is Tupper with medicine and Meighen with math, and science knowledge from that time period would be out of date. Everyone else not yet mentioned is just a variation of law degree or lawyer (except Joe Clark's poli sci).

I would cheat a bit for the fourth. As captain, Harper would deem the science distribution unnecessary, so we just cede those points and take on an arts specialist instead- a part of the distribution that isn't well-covered by other countries. I am going with a looser definition of "leader" and bringing in former governor general Adrienne Clarkson. Her arts and literature experience from her CBC days would be invaluable… if Harper can get along with a "gala" player.

Team Canada would be in the mix. They lack depth (especially in science), but two of them have played competitively already. While half of their opponents would spend the tournament bewildered by the electricity in the buzzer system, Harper would tally up tossups off giveaway clues, blocking opponents from exploiting their depth in bonuses. They could end up 2nd or 3rd with 10 PPB and Harper as top scorer.

[theMoMA]

Are there any governors general (or monarchs, on the English side) that could be decent quizbowlers?

[merv1618]

Are there any governors general (or monarchs, on the English side) that could be decent quizbowlers?

Elizabeth I was famous for actually paying attention to Edward VI's tutors and becoming multilingual and well-learned, so maybe her?

[bsmith]

Are there any governors general (or monarchs, on the English side) that could be decent quizbowlers?

Most of Canada's early governors general had a background in aristocracy or the military (or both); neither of which I consider a natural fit for quizbowl. An exception would be Lord Tweedsmuir, known for promoting arts, literature and culture, and the author of The Thirty-Nine Steps and other works.

Recent governors general have tended to be journalists (specifically, CBC television). A career as a journalist would expose you to a wide variety of topics, and I chose Adrienne Clarkson as the potential "best fit" amongst those. Our current GG, David Johnston, dabbled in the media a bit, but has focused on law and presiding over two universities- I might consider replacing Campbell or Pearson with him.

Of course, these hypothetical players would just be on the sidelines to Team Stephen Harper. If a singles quizbowl match broke out at the UN, he would win, with only Angela Merkel's science background as a serious threat.

[Auks Ran Ova]

Somehow it never occurred to me that Commonwealth types would refer to John Buchan as "Lord Tweedsmuir". I am delighted.

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

EDIT: I am an idiot who does not understand the word "leader"

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

Team Hungary

1. Colomon the Book-Lover. Yes this is the actual name of a medieval Hungarian king, notable for annexing Croatia and having a disagreement with the leaders of the First Crusade. I figure if you’ve earned this nickname, you’ll be decent at any mACF event.

2. Gyorgy Lukacs. He briefly held a cabinet post in the government of Bela Kun and I believe he also briefly had some kind of government position in the 1950’s. In any event, if you have written books that are in the ACF canon you have a shot of being at least okay at quizbowl.

3. Lajos Kossuth. As anyone who played 2009 ACF Nationals knows, Kossuth taught himself English by reading the complete works of Shakespeare. That’s good for some lit points right there.

4. Viktor Orban. If you want to rehabilitate old right-wing dictators, bemoan the Treaty of Trianon, and try to restore the greatness of Matthias Corvinus, you need to know about these things. Like any contemporary right-wing Hungarian politician, Orban knows his history and he’d be a beast at current events. Now that he has commissioned a government-sponsored art show about the greatest moments in Hungarian history (one of which is his own election as Prime Minister) he might get some FA points here and there.

Team Germany

1. Frederich the Great. The one thing that this guy may have liked more than defeating larger armies in open battle through superior tactics may have been reading books and hanging out with the likes of Voltaire. Super competitive and with an axe to grind against his critics, like so many top quiz bowl players. He had a habit of annoying other monarchs by referring to them (technically correctly) by their lesser titles: i.e., “Queen of Hungary” for Empress Maria Theresa. Does he cause a stir by referring to Matt Bollinger as “ACF Regionals champ”?

2. Frederick II. Does any other medieval monarch even come close to rivaling him for intellectual curiosity?

3. Some Reformation Dude. The early German Protestants were prodigious readers and writers, indeed one of the core aspects of their new faith was that you should be able to read holy texts for yourself in your own language. I’m not sure who counts as a “leader” - I think Martin Luther is the one you want, but if he’s deemed ineligible you might pick from Theodore Muntzer (rebel leader), or unquestionable political leader Philip of Hesse.

4. Von Moltke the Elder. As old tossups on this guy loved to point out, he wrote history books in his spare time and the Prussian general staff is as scholarly a bunch as you’ll find in any military aristocracy.

Honorable mentions: Charles V (could play for so many different European countries), Benedict XVI (probably is on Team Vatican)

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

Countries to underrate at your own risk:

France: Note how many of France's leading men of letters/scientists attained some level of political leadership (however fleeting) during the Revolution. On top of that, Napoleon is no slouch and clearly had extensive academic interests. Charlemagne, despite his illiteracy, could be dangerous given all the scholars he surrounded himself with.

Vatican City/Papal States: For centuries the best education you could get in Europe was from the church. Upper-level Catholic leaders to this day complete decades of study. You could easily find 4 popes who have a commanding knowledge of the big 3 subjects. Fine Arts is something this team could dominate as well.

[ProfessorIanDuncan]

I would wager that Boris Yeltsin wins the neg prize.

[ryanrosenberg]

The problem with old dudes in this hypothetical scenario is their lack of modern knowledge. If Germany goes with what Bruce proposes and doesn't include Merkel, they're completely sacrificing anything after 1900--so most science, any modern lit/history/religion/phil, and of course trash/CE. Any competitive team will have to have at least one modern generalist to avoid being shut out of those categories (and zeroing the bonuses).

[romgl]

I think Poland might stand a chance as a sleeper pick.

Team Poland:

• Bronislaw Komorowski - history and current events (current PM, historian)
• Ignacy Jan Paderewski - music (former PM, well-regarded pianist/composer, he would also have some knowledge of U.S. as he lived in California for a while)
• Lech Walesa - I'm just going to assume he's good with science as he was an electrician, and therefore should know stuff about physics. I'll also assume he knows stuff about sports as he apparently represented Europe and carried the Olympic flag in 2002
• Leszek Balcerowicz - economics (economist and deputy PM known for the Balcerowicz Plan, which helped Poland transition from communism to capitalism)

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

The problem with old dudes in this hypothetical scenario is their lack of modern knowledge. If Germany goes with what Bruce proposes and doesn't include Merkel, they're completely sacrificing anything after 1900--so most science, any modern lit/history/religion/phil, and of course trash/CE. Any competitive team will have to have at least one modern generalist to avoid being shut out of those categories (and zeroing the bonuses).

If we assume that old dudes won't have a chance to study modern topics and get up to speed on them, then I think we are playing a much less interesting game. The "correct answer" then boils down to pick very recent politicians who have an academic background of some kind - BOOOOOOOORING.

That is why I went and looked for any major figures from the entire course of history who seemed to me to either have unusually high intellectual curiousity, or at least a very solid education. I think that's a much more interesting question to answer.

[Bloodwych]

1. Francisco Macías Nguema
2. Francisco Macías Nguema
3. Francisco Macías Nguema
4. Francisco Macías Nguema

[The Atom Strikes!]

If we played by Bruce's rules, I believe that we could make a strong case for Team Mughal Empire-- whose four slots would be filled out by Babur, Akbar, Jahangir, and Shah Jahan. All four were highly intellectually curious and literate men (Akbar, who was probably dyslexic and couldn't actually read, accomplished this by having smart people tell him stuff. He would probably be able to overcome his dyslexia with modern therapy). Babur was a poet and Islamic legal scholar whose memoir demonstrates extensive historical knowledge and carefully cultivated literary taste, as well as a deep interest in the geography and biology of India, which he conquered. Akbar was a genius king who was dedicated to acquiring extremely extensive knowledge of his realm and all of its major religions. Jahangir's memoir shows that he was obsessed with the natural world and with art (to the point where he enthusiastically imported European paintings and encouraged his court artists to experiment with elements like realistic portraiture, which they combined with Islamic iconography to make some really exciting art). Shah Jahan was also an enormous art-lover and conoisseur, which is why just about all of the most famous Mughal buildings were constructed during his reign.

[ndikkala]

Abdul Kalam of India is a genius of any time period. He'd probably kill it on any quantum questions, having led India's nuclear program for a while. Plus he has political experience from his time as President.