2016 MLK: Specific Questions

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2016 MLK: Specific Questions

Post by Auroni »

Post about specific questions in here. I will honor all requests to see specific questions as long as you attach a reason to them; don't just list 50 questions that you want to see without saying why, because those posts will be ignored.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Highlights

There were a lot of tossups I thought covered cool and interesting material in a "fresh" way, or boldly stepped into answerspace not well covered by regular difficulty before, continuing a lot of the positive trends from VCU Open 2015. The tossups on Tristan (in music), Siena and the American Revolution (in painting), welfare (in economics), crowds (in social science), France (from modern politics involving Muslims), Charles Murray (from works of somewhat higher merit than The Bell Curve, as well as that questionable book) were among the many examples of this that I was able to appreciate, and I heard similar praise from other folks.

Lowlights

The most egregious tossup in the tournament was the one on Tibet which said "this country" and consequently caused people to neg with the [correct] answer of "China." I too dislike the Chinese government, but I do not care what your political views are - Tibet is not a widely internationally recognized country, either de facto or de jure. It is an autonomous region. Calling Tibet a "nation" (as the giveaway does) would have been fine, as would calling it a "region." Yes, there have been tossups on Tibet that called it a "region" before, but that's better than misleading people.

The Tang dynasty tossup has a massive hose when it says "the central government during this dynasty monopolized the salt and iron industries" because this policy was first (and much more famously) implemented during the Han.

The tossup on Castile spent two lines on a leadin that basically sounded utterly meaningless when read in-game to the point that it was mocked. (EDIT: It's a worthwhile clue but I think the phrasing was questionable and took up too much space).

I'm not sure if my knowledge is weird, but I feel like Roche lobes are a pretty well-known Thing and rather early in that tossup on binary systems.

The Vietnam War tossup could be frauded rather early if you know what the Vietnam Veterans Memorial looks like - I don't think the clue about "black granite" is bad in and of itself, but I feel like that could be moved later. The self-immolation tossup also seemed extremely transparent throughout.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Charbroil »

The leadin to the "big nose" literature question isn't really unique--Saleem Sinai has a lot of weird distinctive physical features (he's sort of bald and has a big head, for example). His big nose is probably his best known trait, but I think the leadin could use clarification to indicate that you're talking about his nose.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by The Ununtiable Twine »

The representation theory bonus had both a hard part and a CO-level hard part. By regular difficulty standards, knowing the definition of representation should probably be enough for a team to find their way to 30ing the bonus without much more thought. The Schur's lemma that was written about in this bonus is like the second- or third-most famous Schur's lemma/theorem, so yeah that's very hard for this level.

Can you post the "derivative" tossup? I recall hearing clues about the makeup of Christoffel symbols and parallel transport derivations, which notably make use of partial and not ordinary derivatives, so I buzzed with that instead of just derivatives.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Auroni »

Packet 5 wrote:11. An operation with this word in its name acts on a form the same way as would the commutator of another operation called this word and the contraction with a vector field, according to Cartan’s magic formula. In curved space this operation is generalized by adding a term which includes the Christoffel symbols; that type of this operation is used to define parallel transport. A type of this operation which squares to zero and maps an n-dimensional form to an (n + 1)-dimensional form is called an (*) “exterior” one. Rolle’s theorem states that there must some value c where taking this operation on the function in question at c will give zero. For the square root of x, this operation gives one over the square root of x, and it equals zero at a function’s min or max. For 10 points, name this operation which is the inverse of an “integral” according to the fundamental theorem of calculus.
ANSWER: derivative <BM>
Is this a case where the answerline isn't as developed as it should be, or is there something more fundamentally wrong with the tossup?
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by The Ununtiable Twine »

Auroni wrote:
Packet 5 wrote:11. An operation with this word in its name acts on a form the same way as would the commutator of another operation called this word and the contraction with a vector field, according to Cartan’s magic formula. In curved space this operation is generalized by adding a term which includes the Christoffel symbols; that type of this operation is used to define parallel transport. A type of this operation which squares to zero and maps an n-dimensional form to an (n + 1)-dimensional form is called an (*) “exterior” one. Rolle’s theorem states that there must some value c where taking this operation on the function in question at c will give zero. For the square root of x, this operation gives one over the square root of x, and it equals zero at a function’s min or max. For 10 points, name this operation which is the inverse of an “integral” according to the fundamental theorem of calculus.
ANSWER: derivative <BM>
Is this a case where the answerline isn't as developed as it should be, or is there something more fundamentally wrong with the tossup?
The answerline should probably allow for more specific answers (Lie derivative, covariant derivative, exterior derivative).

The equation that defines parallel transport uses things called covariant derivatives (the thing that is generalized in the second sentence) and Christoffel symbols. However, the derivation of that parallel transport formula does use tons of partial derivatives, so partial derivatives are "used to define parallel transport" although they don't appear in the final definition. I tuned out the first part of the sentence and buzzed on "used to define parallel transport" - with partial derivatives, which is my bad. More specific answers such as the ones in parentheses should be accepted or we can just be nice (as we sometimes are) and ask people to be less specific if they give more specific answers than required.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by sonstige »

A question that hosed some teams at our site was "Olympic stadiums" --- as some people gave a specific sport, like "soccer stadium." As one person argued, on whatever clue they buzzed on, that they thought the stadium described in that clue is *currently* used for hosting soccer events, and should have at least provided a prompt to get to "Olympic stadiums."
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Brian McPeak »

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: The most egregious tossup in the tournament was the one on Tibet which said "this country" and consequently caused people to neg with the [correct] answer of "China."
I wrote this question. It was an oversight, not a political statement-- I'll fix it for later mirrors.
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: I'm not sure if my knowledge is weird, but I feel like Roche lobes are a pretty well-known Thing and rather early in that tossup on binary systems.
Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking here.
The Ununtiable Twine wrote: The representation theory bonus had both a hard part and a CO-level hard part.
My thinking was that "irreducible" would key people in, but I think you're right that both the middle and hard part of this bonus are pretty hard, so I'll scale it down.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Mnemosyne »

2 things about the derivative question: At the risk of looking like an idiot, it claims the derivative of sqrt(x) is 1/sqrt(x), which is wrong.

I also think that question has a huge difficulty cliff from exterior derivative to Rolle's theorem. I might have a huge gap in my knowledge, but that question instantly went from upper-level math to buzzer racing 10th graders.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

I've only been through multivariate, but I didn't ever hear about Rolle's theorem. I have heard of exterior derivatives, though only through looking at Wikipedia articles and not through taking actual classes.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Brian McPeak »

Mnemosyne wrote:At the risk of looking like an idiot, it claims the derivative of sqrt(x) is 1/sqrt(x), which is wrong.
Oh man, you're so right. I could have sworn I put a 2 in there-- Auroni must have changed it when I wasn't looking.

My calc 3 class had a lot of differential forms for whatever reason, so I like to write about them, but I guess that's probably not normal so I should probably put something between that and Rolle's theorem.

Thanks for the comments people, keep them coming.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by The Ununtiable Twine »

Brian McPeak wrote:
Mnemosyne wrote:At the risk of looking like an idiot, it claims the derivative of sqrt(x) is 1/sqrt(x), which is wrong.
Oh man, you're so right. I could have sworn I put a 2 in there-- Auroni must have changed it when I wasn't looking.

My calc 3 class had a lot of differential forms for whatever reason, so I like to write about them, but I guess that's probably not normal so I should probably put something between that and Rolle's theorem.

Thanks for the comments people, keep them coming.
Or you could just describe Rolle's theorem before mentioning it by name. The description of Rolle's theorem and all of the other things in the tossup are fine where they are otherwise.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by The Dance of Sorrow »

The tossup on Martin Luther was the only real clunker that I remember from playing: I remember just sitting there letting all of these famous clues about the Luther Bible fly over my head because I didn't think they would be appearing so early in the tossup. Is my Luther knowledge just incredibly misplaced?
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by armitage »

How exactly does the miRNA bonus distinguish it from siRNA? Both are incorporated into RISC and base-pair to mRNA, and the leadin clues seem rather obscure.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Auroni »

armitage wrote:How exactly does the miRNA bonus distinguish it from siRNA? Both are incorporated into RISC and base-pair to mRNA, and the leadin clues seem rather obscure.
Packet 10 wrote:12. In plants, duplexes of this genetic material are methylated by Hua-Enhancer 1 and transported out of the nucleus by Hasty. For 10 points each:
[10] Name this non-coding genetic material, derived from hairpin-forming transcripts. It base-pairs with complementary mRNA after being incorporated into the RISC (“risk”).
I've bolded one of the key differences between the two. You're right that most of the actual bonus part does not distinguish between the two, so I will edit it to make the differences more explicit, probably as follows:

[10] Name this single-stranded non-coding genetic material, derived from hairpin-forming transcripts. Unlike a very similar type of molecule, it does not require full complementarity to base-pair with mRNA after being incorporated into the RISC ("risk").
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by sonny »

On the ligand tossup in packet 10, would I have been prompted on "coordination complex" at any point?
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by armitage »

Auroni wrote:[10] Name this single-stranded non-coding genetic material, derived from hairpin-forming transcripts. Unlike a very similar type of molecule, it does not require full complementarity to base-pair with mRNA after being incorporated into the RISC ("risk").
That fix looks good.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Windmill Tump »

sonny wrote:On the ligand tossup in packet 10, would I have been prompted on "coordination complex" at any point?
Oops, I wrote this thinking about ligand substitution reactions for the first half so I forgot about someone just saying coordination complex - I've revised it so coordination complex is accepted up until the trans effect clue, and is then prompted if answered during the trans effect and nephelauxetic effect clue.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by 1992 in spaceflight »

Can I see the tossup on the House of the Spirits? I remember thinking one of the middle clues was wrong or phrased weirdly.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Auroni »

The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:Can I see the tossup on the House of the Spirits? I remember thinking one of the middle clues was wrong or phrased weirdly.
Packet 8 wrote:9. When a priest in this novel makes a dramatic pause in his sermon, a girl says “If that story about hell is a lie, we’re all fucked,” and the priest declares she is possessed. This novel ends with a woman writing while sitting in a mansion beside the body of her grandfather, and with the revelation that she is pregnant by an unknown man. Nana dies of fright in an earthquake in this novel which breaks all of the bones of another character. This novel begins with the announcement that the (*) dog Barrabás “came to us by sea.” In this novel, Rosa dies by drinking poison meant for her politician father; Clara blames herself for predicting the death, and stops speaking for nine years. This novel is about the del Valle family, who live in the hacienda Las Tres Marías. For 10 points, name this debut novel by Isabel Allende.
ANSWER: The House of the Spirits [or La casa de los espíritus] <WN>
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by 1992 in spaceflight »

Auroni wrote:
The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:Can I see the tossup on the House of the Spirits? I remember thinking one of the middle clues was wrong or phrased weirdly.
Packet 8 wrote:9. When a priest in this novel makes a dramatic pause in his sermon, a girl says “If that story about hell is a lie, we’re all fucked,” and the priest declares she is possessed. This novel ends with a woman writing while sitting in a mansion beside the body of her grandfather, and with the revelation that she is pregnant by an unknown man. Nana dies of fright in an earthquake in this novel which breaks all of the bones of another character. This novel begins with the announcement that the (*) dog Barrabás “came to us by sea.” In this novel, Rosa dies by drinking poison meant for her politician father; Clara blames herself for predicting the death, and stops speaking for nine years. This novel is about the del Valle family, who live in the hacienda Las Tres Marías. For 10 points, name this debut novel by Isabel Allende.
ANSWER: The House of the Spirits [or La casa de los espíritus] <WN>
I thought Tres Marias was the Trueba family household, not the del Valle house?
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by women, fire and dangerous things »

The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:
Auroni wrote:
The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:Can I see the tossup on the House of the Spirits? I remember thinking one of the middle clues was wrong or phrased weirdly.
Packet 8 wrote:9. When a priest in this novel makes a dramatic pause in his sermon, a girl says “If that story about hell is a lie, we’re all fucked,” and the priest declares she is possessed. This novel ends with a woman writing while sitting in a mansion beside the body of her grandfather, and with the revelation that she is pregnant by an unknown man. Nana dies of fright in an earthquake in this novel which breaks all of the bones of another character. This novel begins with the announcement that the (*) dog Barrabás “came to us by sea.” In this novel, Rosa dies by drinking poison meant for her politician father; Clara blames herself for predicting the death, and stops speaking for nine years. This novel is about the del Valle family, who live in the hacienda Las Tres Marías. For 10 points, name this debut novel by Isabel Allende.
ANSWER: The House of the Spirits [or La casa de los espíritus] <WN>
I thought Tres Marias was the Trueba family household, not the del Valle house?
Whoops, you're right - I'll fix that.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Victor Prieto »

[10] A common way of determining protein concentration involves measuring absorbance at this nanometer wavelength, where proteins absorb the most light. Nucleic acids in contrast have maximum absorbance at 260 nm.
ANSWER: 280 nanometers [or 280 nm]
This isn't true 100% of the time. Proteins always have high absorbance in the 200-220 nm region due to the peptide bonds, while 280 nm is the specific absorbance of proteins containing aromatic residues. Sure, most proteins will have aromatic residues and absorb at 280 nm (not all of them though), but it's not a guarantee that proteins will absorb the most light at 280 nm. There are definitely proteins that have a stronger absorbance at 220 nm than 280 nm, I think it depends on the relative amounts of peptide bonds and aromatic residues.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Windmill Tump »

Yeah, that's completely true of course, but in practice, I've always used 280 to find protein concentration. I see your point though, it's not accurate to just say the maximum is at 280. I'll change the wording - thanks!
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Victor Prieto »

It didn't matter to the outcome of a game yesterday, but I was negged for saying "Nobunaga," but "Oda" or "Oda Nobunaga" would have been acceptable. I knew that Oda was the clan, and so I've always figured that Nobunaga was his name and his unique identifier. Can someone please explain? I guess a clarification on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and other important figures from Japanese history would be helpful, too.

EDIT: Kelp forests would be much better as a bonus part (although I do not doubt their importance after having looked them up).
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Re: Specific Questions

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Victor Prieto wrote:It didn't matter to the outcome of a game yesterday, but I was negged for saying "Nobunaga," but "Oda" or "Oda Nobunaga" would have been acceptable. I knew that Oda was the clan, and so I've always figured that Nobunaga was his name and his unique identifier. Can someone please explain? I guess a clarification on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and other important figures from Japanese history would be helpful, too.

EDIT: Kelp forests would be much better as a bonus part (although I do not doubt their importance after having looked them up).
I'm guessing that the logic is that you can't give the answer "Ronald" for a tossup on "Ronald Reagan" (where _Reagan_ would be acceptable, as would _Ronald Reagan_) and that the same should apply here. I'd agree in the case of most names, but I would be inclined to prompt on Nobunaga (or Hideyoshi, or Ieyasu) for that matter in only the case of the three great unifiers since I've definitely seen them referred to by just their personal names in books.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Everyman »

At our site, a number of people (including me) were negged for saying Friedel–Crafts on the Friedel–Crafts clues for the electrophilic aromatic substitution question. Should this have been accepted?
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Chaac and Ayyy »

sonstige wrote:A question that hosed some teams at our site was "Olympic stadiums" --- as some people gave a specific sport, like "soccer stadium." As one person argued, on whatever clue they buzzed on, that they thought the stadium described in that clue is *currently* used for hosting soccer events, and should have at least provided a prompt to get to "Olympic stadiums."
I agree with this sentiment to some degree, but without the question to refer to I'm more of the opinion that answering with a specific sport along with "stadium" is incorrect. I negged a few words before "Bird's Nest" was said with an answer of "baseball stadiums", which I realized was totally wrong since the question mentioned Montreal, and Montreal hasn't had a baseball team since the Expos moved to D.C. Also, it's a somber fact that many of the Olympic Stadiums that had to be built-and not just repurposing already existing ones-are left to rust and aren't actively used for a specific sport once the games are over, so answering with a specific sport may match the events held in the stadium during the Olympics, but not the stadium's current use.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Victor Prieto »

Sorry I keep mentioning things piece-wise like this, but virtually identical clues about the work function are contained in the tossups on photons and electrons in rounds 9 and 10, respectively.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Windmill Tump »

Everyman wrote:At our site, a number of people (including me) were negged for saying Friedel–Crafts on the Friedel–Crafts clues for the electrophilic aromatic substitution question. Should this have been accepted?
I do think that negging someone for saying Friedel-Crafts on the clues talking about Friedel-Crafts is pretty harsh, so I'm adding a prompt for it. I apologize for missing that when I read through this tossup! It shouldn't be accepted outright though.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Ben Salter »

Could I see the question on "Tristan" please? I may have just misheard the question, but the clues pertaining to the Turangalîla-Symphonie seemed like they could have also applied to Isolde.
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Re: Specific Questions

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Ben Salter wrote:Could I see the question on "Tristan" please? I may have just misheard the question, but the clues pertaining to the Turangalîla-Symphonie seemed like they could have also applied to Isolde.
Packet 2 wrote:11. A Hans Werner Henze piece about this character incorporates a recording of a dog’s heartbeat. A trilogy of works named after this character includes a piece whose “statue theme” is reprised in the fifth movement, “Joy of the Blood of the Stars.” A ten-movement piece with a Sanskrit name which makes heavy use of the ondes Martenot, Turangalila Symphony, is part of a trilogy by Olivier Messiaen inspired by this character. Paul Lansky’s (*) Mild und Leise is named after the opening words of a song sung over his dead body. A motif representing this character is jokingly quoted in “Golliwogg’s Cakewalk” by Debussy. The notes F, B, D-sharp and G-sharp make up a chord representing this character, the first chord in an opera which ends with the Liebestod aria. For 10 points, name this character who, in a Wagner opera, loves Isolde.
ANSWER: Tristan <WN>
I can only find the name "Tristan-trilogy" to describe Messiaen's three works [including Turangalila].
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Cody »

The question does not specify named for in the sentence dropping Turangalila; given that he was inspired by the legend of Tristan and Isolde, that's a plausible answer (to a player hearing the clue) unless the wording is changed.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Auroni »

That's fair; it was also brought to my attention that having the pronoun at the end of the "Mild und Liese" clue could have compounded the confusion, so I've changed the important bits to read:

"A ten-movement piece with a Sanskrit name which makes heavy use of the ondes Martenot, Turangalila Symphony, is part of a trilogy by Olivier Messiaen titled for this character. This character’s corpse is the subject of the aria (*) “Mild und Leise.”
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Amizda Calyx »

The tossup on EPO was pretty far above the difficulty of the rest of the bio. I guess if you learn a lot about the JAK/STAT pathway in some undergrad physio class I've never taken you could conceivably get it before it starts describing erythropoiesis, but it seemed fairly biased toward people who just look at Step One tables. Could you post it please?
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Auroni »

Packet 4 wrote:The conserved tyrosine-343 residue on this protein’s receptor upregulates the STAT-5 signaling that results after activation of the receptor causes JAK-2 autophosphorylation. A low RPI index might indicate a deficiency of this protein. In the absence of this protein, cells at the CFU-E stage undergo apoptosis. Central nervous system tumors known as hemangioblastomas can cause polycythemia by overproducing this protein. In response to hypoxia, HIF-1-alpha promotes the release of this glycoprotein in interstitial cells of the peritubular capillary bed of the (*) kidney. Aranesp and Procrit are “stimulating agents” of this protein illicitly used for blood doping in endurance sports. For 10 points, name this protein that acts at the bone marrow to promote red blood cell formation, or erythropoiesis.
ANSWER: erythropoietin [or Epo] <AG>
The higher difficulty is by design; this was slated to be the hardest tossup in the category. Lodish goes into detail about the Epo receptor's role in JAK-STAT signaling, so I felt that this was an appropriate leadin.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Amizda Calyx »

I guess my issue with this question is that there don't seem to be enough unique clues that aren't far too difficult for this level -- it feels rather harsh to expect people to know the specific residue on the EPO receptor in order to distinguish among the cytokines that activate the JAK2/STAT5 pathway. The clues are just fairly biased toward clinical medicine and so hover around the same difficulty for much of the question.

I agree with Victor on the kelp forests -- I was quite surprised that that was coded as the bio tossup considering I was buzzing on an anthropology clue (could I see the rest of the tossup?).

Overall, though, I quite enjoyed the bio/biochem in this tournament -- erythropoietin and I guess kelp forests were the only ones I had any problem with, and the issues with EPO stem mostly from concerns about difficulty-appropriateness rather than question quality. I liked the methylation, redox, and cysteine tossups especially.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Auroni »

Packet 5 wrote:1. Wheeler J. North studied the effects of El Niño on this type of ecosystem. Jon M. Erlandson theorized that the Americas were populated by people traveling along a “highway” consisting of these ecosystems. Along with grasslands, this type of ecosystem made its first appearance in the Miocene epoch. The predominant species in these ecosystems are Lessonia, Ecklonia, Laminaria, and the most common, Macrocystis. These ecosystems stay upright with the help of (*) gas-filled pneumatocysts located at the base of fronds near the stipe. These ecosystems are farmed to extract alginic acid. These ecosystems are destroyed due to unchecked grazing by sea urchins, which is why sea otters are a keystone species for them. For 10 points, name these aquatic ecosystems formed by a type of brown seaweed.
ANSWER: kelp forests [or kelp beds] <AG>
This was the ecology tossup.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Cody »

Auroni wrote:
Packet 5 wrote:1. Wheeler J. North studied the effects of El Niño on this type of ecosystem. Jon M. Erlandson theorized that the Americas were populated by people traveling along a “highway” consisting of these ecosystems. Along with grasslands, this type of ecosystem made its first appearance in the Miocene epoch. The predominant species in these ecosystems are Lessonia, Ecklonia, Laminaria, and the most common, Macrocystis. These ecosystems stay upright with the help of (*) gas-filled pneumatocysts located at the base of fronds near the stipe. These ecosystems are farmed to extract alginic acid. These ecosystems are destroyed due to unchecked grazing by sea urchins, which is why sea otters are a keystone species for them. For 10 points, name these aquatic ecosystems formed by a type of brown seaweed.
ANSWER: kelp forests [or kelp beds] <AG>
This was the ecology tossup.
This was a very good tossup.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Victor Prieto »

Amizda Calyx wrote:I liked the methylation... and cysteine tossups especially.
Sure you liked those, you one-lined both of them!
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Auroni wrote:
Packet 5 wrote:ANSWER: kelp forests [or kelp beds] <AG>
This was the ecology tossup.
This was a very good tossup.
Can you elaborate, because it's not apparent to me why this is a "very good" tossup. It looks like the clues are interesting and well thought out, but my issue is the answerline. "Kelp forests" is a very non-canon answerline, which means it's much more susceptible to poor gradation among teams.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Cody »

Victor Prieto wrote:Can you elaborate, because it's not apparent to me why this is a "very good" tossup. It looks like the clues are interesting and well thought out, but my issue is the answerline. "Kelp forests" is a very non-canon answerline, which means it's much more susceptible to poor gradation among teams.
The gradation of clues is good and it's an important topic that people learn a lot about. Non-canonicity is not a problem (in general and definitely not for this answerline. also this answerline is solidly in the canon, just not as a tossup answer).
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Lighthouse Expert Elinor DeWire »

I loved the non canonical science questions (even though I negged a lot)
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Victor Prieto »

Victor Prieto wrote:It didn't matter to the outcome of a game yesterday, but I was negged for saying "Nobunaga," but "Oda" or "Oda Nobunaga" would have been acceptable. I knew that Oda was the clan, and so I've always figured that Nobunaga was his name and his unique identifier. Can someone please explain? I guess a clarification on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and other important figures from Japanese history would be helpful, too.
Is there anybody knowledgeable in this area of history who can give a conclusive answer on this? Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and/or Tokugawa Ieyasu come up at virtually every tournament, and previous questions in the archive diverge wildly on what is acceptable and what is promptable.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Cody »

Victor Prieto wrote:
Victor Prieto wrote:It didn't matter to the outcome of a game yesterday, but I was negged for saying "Nobunaga," but "Oda" or "Oda Nobunaga" would have been acceptable. I knew that Oda was the clan, and so I've always figured that Nobunaga was his name and his unique identifier. Can someone please explain? I guess a clarification on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and other important figures from Japanese history would be helpful, too.
Is there anybody knowledgeable in this area of history who can give a conclusive answer on this? Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and/or Tokugawa Ieyasu come up at virtually every tournament, and previous questions in the archive diverge wildly on what is acceptable and what is promptable.
The answer is twofold: it's the same for any other person: you need the family name (which would be Oda, Toyotomi, and Tokugawa). In the case where that isn't sufficient information to disambiguate amongst multiple people, you prompt.

The given name can be acceptable if that's what they're normally called by people; however, I imagine it's more typical to call the above people by their full name, in which case the given name would not be acceptable.
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Re: Specific Questions

Post by Mewto55555 »

Cody wrote:
Victor Prieto wrote:
Victor Prieto wrote:It didn't matter to the outcome of a game yesterday, but I was negged for saying "Nobunaga," but "Oda" or "Oda Nobunaga" would have been acceptable. I knew that Oda was the clan, and so I've always figured that Nobunaga was his name and his unique identifier. Can someone please explain? I guess a clarification on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and other important figures from Japanese history would be helpful, too.
Is there anybody knowledgeable in this area of history who can give a conclusive answer on this? Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and/or Tokugawa Ieyasu come up at virtually every tournament, and previous questions in the archive diverge wildly on what is acceptable and what is promptable.
The answer is twofold: it's the same for any other person: you need the family name (which would be Oda, Toyotomi, and Tokugawa). In the case where that isn't sufficient information to disambiguate amongst multiple people, you prompt.

The given name can be acceptable if that's what they're normally called by people; however, I imagine it's more typical to call the above people by their full name, in which case the given name would not be acceptable.
For each of these three, the textbook for the class I took alternates (unevenly) between the three options (given name, family name, both). It seems unnecessarily harsh to not at least prompt, since in this case you're really just boning people who know which dude it is and just aren't sure what exactly the technically correct thing to do is. Although this problem is also easy to avoid by just saying the full name when you buzz in.
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