2016 HSNCT discussion

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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:37 pm

2016 HSNCT round 14 wrote:For 10 points each—name these smelly compounds and classes of compounds:

A. This carboxylic acid with six carbons is partly responsible for the odor of barnyard animals like sheep and goats.

answer: hexanoic [HECK-suh-NOH-ik] acid (or caproic acid or C5H11COOH)

B. Alcohols react with carboxylic acids to yield this class of chemicals, responsible for the aromas of bananas and strawberries.

answer: esters

C. Pine tree resins contain many of these compounds, mostly made of a bonded chain of isoprene subunits.

answer: terpenes (or terpenoids; prompt on "isoprenoids")
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by bluejay123 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:07 pm

Isn't mentioning six carbons in the hexanoic acid bonus a slight giveaway?
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:14 pm

bluejay123 wrote:Isn't mentioning six carbons in the hexanoic acid bonus a slight giveaway?
The question amounts to "do you know what the name for a six-carbon carboxylic acid is," and that's by design. It is the middle part.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Amizda Calyx » Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:41 pm

bird bird bird bird bird wrote:[quote="2016 HSNCT round 13"
2016 HSNCT round 20 wrote:Henry Friesen discovered the human form of this 199-residue hormone. Its release is stimulated by thyrotropin-releasing hormone and vasoactive intestinal peptide. It is released at the time of the ovulatory LH surge and as a reaction to (*) suckling, while excessive levels of it can result in galactorrhea. For 10 points—name this hormone secreted by the anterior pituitary gland, which promotes lactation.

answer: prolactin (prompt on "PRL")
VIP and LH surge are pretty useless clues since both are associated with multiple hormones, with prolactin being a very minor one -- it's rarely (never?) depicted in menstrual cycle hormone level diagrams, which are what high schoolers would be exposed to. Also, I know the name stands for "promotes lactation", and it is somewhat indirectly needed for lactation in that you aren't really lactating unless you have milk, but prolactin is involved in milk production and secretion from the alveoli, not lactation. Oxytocin is also released in response to suckling (altho from the post pit) and is the actual hormone involved in milk letdown. It seems unfair to reward being able to put together "promotes" and "lactation" while at the same time confusing the people who know about prolactin outside of its etymology.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:32 pm

Thank you to NAQT for writing a great set; I really enjoyed the tournament this year!

My teammates and I were wondering a few things about the questions, however. My teammate buzzed at "Galois groups" for the quintic polynomial question with just "polynomials", and was negged. He was wondering why he couldn't have been prompted, as he wasn't sure how specific the question wanted him to be when he buzzed. I was also wondering if there were many protests about the "nuclear war" tossup in Packet 11, since the first clue refers to Duck and Cover, and thus, taking cover from a nuclear attack; and in the same packet, I thought the Amtrak tossup was extremely fraudable.

Also, I'm sure this has been discussed before, but what is NAQT's policy on including warnings such as "Description acceptable" at the beginning of appropriate questions? My teammate didn't buzz with "Zootopia police" even though she knew it, and after the question, she said, "That thing has a name?" I think including a "description acceptable" warning would also be helpful on questions like "the JFK assassination rifle" or "the iPhone of the San Bernadino shooter", as I think some people might have been dissuaded from buzzing if they thought there was a proper name for the rifle they did not know of, or if they thought they needed the shooter's name to have their answer ruled as correct.

Lastly, I believe there was a factual error in the "Oregon" tossup in Packet 16; the governor's name is Kate Brown, not Emily Brown.

Thanks!
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:40 pm

Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock wrote:My teammates and I were wondering a few things about the questions, however. My teammate buzzed at "Galois groups" for the quintic polynomial question with just "polynomials", and was negged. He was wondering why he couldn't have been prompted, as he wasn't sure how specific the question wanted him to be when he buzzed.
This was a mistake and I'm sorry for it. It caused protests in several rooms; in non-mooted cases we did indeed rule that it should have been prompted.
Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock wrote:I was also wondering if there were many protests about the "nuclear war" tossup in Packet 11, since the first clue refers to Duck and Cover, and thus, taking cover from a nuclear attack
I'm not sure I understand your question. "Nuclear attack" was acceptable. Here's the complete question and answer line:
HSNCT packet 11 wrote:This type of event was discussed in an educational film featuring Bert the Turtle, and the phrase "We must either love each other or we must die" was spoken in a 1964 campaign ad depicting one. The film (*) Duck and Cover gave dubious advice on surviving this kind of event. Lyndon Johnson's "Daisy Girl" ad depicted—for 10 points—what so-far hypothetical event, which prompted the building of bomb shelters during the Cold War?

answer: nuclear war (accept answers that mention the use of nuclear or atomic weapons or the notion of a nuclear explosion or thermonuclear attack; prompt on less specific answers like "war")
Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock wrote:and in the same packet, I thought the Amtrak tossup was extremely fraudable.
I'm sorry to hear that. Some of our editors did express concerns to that effect; others thought that at gameplay speed it wasn't actually so.
Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock wrote:Also, I'm sure this has been discussed before, but what is NAQT's policy on including warnings such as "Description acceptable" at the beginning of appropriate questions? My teammate didn't buzz with "Zootopia police" even though she knew it, and after the question, she said, "That thing has a name?" I think including a "description acceptable" warning would also be helpful on questions like "the JFK assassination rifle" or "the iPhone of the San Bernadino shooter", as I think some people might have been dissuaded from buzzing if they thought there was a proper name for the rifle they did not know of, or if they thought they needed the shooter's name to have their answer ruled as correct.
We generally do not include the vague "Description acceptable" directive, although more specific ones like "Composer and genre required" and (in the "Jake Arrieta's no-hitters" tossup) "Athlete and feat required" do occasionally show up.
Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock wrote:Lastly, I believe there was a factual error in the "Oregon" tossup in Packet 16; the governor's name is Kate Brown, not Emily Brown.
That's pretty embarrassing. I'm sorry about that.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:02 pm

I think they mean it was easy to think the answer was "taking cover from a nuclear attack".
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:08 pm

Sorry for the unclear question! What happened in my game was that I buzzed first line with "taking cover from a nuclear attack" and was negged. I protested, and it was resolved rather quickly at halftime in my favor, so I was wondering if there were other similar protests.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:25 pm

Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock wrote:Sorry for the unclear question! What happened in my game was that I buzzed first line with "taking cover from a nuclear attack" and was negged. I protested, and it was resolved rather quickly at halftime in my favor, so I was wondering if there were other similar protests.
Ah, fair enough. I believe that falls under the "accept answers that mention the use of…" directive, so it should have been accepted; I'm glad to hear it ultimately was. I do not have any information on other protests on that question.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Cody » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:01 pm

Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock wrote:Also, I'm sure this has been discussed before, but what is NAQT's policy on including warnings such as "Description acceptable" at the beginning of appropriate questions? My teammate didn't buzz with "Zootopia police" even though she knew it, and after the question, she said, "That thing has a name?" I think including a "description acceptable" warning would also be helpful on questions like "the JFK assassination rifle" or "the iPhone of the San Bernadino shooter", as I think some people might have been dissuaded from buzzing if they thought there was a proper name for the rifle they did not know of, or if they thought they needed the shooter's name to have their answer ruled as correct.
Most of these have nothing to do with description acceptable -- if a thing doesn't have a name (such as the JFK rifle), that warning is stupid. There's no name for it so a warning that you can give a description instead of a name makes no sense.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Corry » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:36 pm

Cody wrote: Most of these have nothing to do with description acceptable -- if a thing doesn't have a name (such as the JFK rifle), that warning is stupid. There's no name for it so a warning that you can give a description instead of a name makes no sense.
I disagree. While "Description acceptable" is useful for tossups on named things that don't require the official name, it can also exist to signal that something has no official name at all. Take, for instance, the tossup in VCU Open 2015 (ahem) on "Zinedine Zidane headbutting Marco Materazzi in the 2006 FIFA World Cup Final".
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by hokie168 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:53 pm

Can you post the condensation reaction bonus from the final game? Thanks.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:28 pm

2016 HSNCT round 26 wrote:The saponification of animal fats to form soaps is an example of this class of reaction. For 10 points each—

A. In what class of reactions does water break apart a chemical bond?

answer: hydrolysis or hydrolytic reaction (accept hydrolyzing or hydrolyze)

B. The formation of a peptide bond is one of this class of reactions, an example of which is the reverse of hydrolysis. These reactions can produce water, ammonia, or other small molecules as byproducts.

answer: condensation reaction(s) (accept condensing or condense)

C. Hydrolysis of sulfuric acid yields the anion HSO4\N-, which has this name.

answer: hydrogen sulfate or bisulfate (do not accept or prompt on "sulfate" or "bisulfite")
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by setht » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:48 pm

bird bird bird bird bird wrote:
2016 HSNCT round 26 wrote:The saponification of animal fats to form soaps is an example of this class of reaction. For 10 points each—

A. In what class of reactions does water break apart a chemical bond?

answer: hydrolysis or hydrolytic reaction (accept hydrolyzing or hydrolyze)

B. The formation of a peptide bond is one of this class of reactions, an example of which is the reverse of hydrolysis. These reactions can produce water, ammonia, or other small molecules as byproducts.

answer: condensation reaction(s) (accept condensing or condense)

C. Hydrolysis of sulfuric acid yields the anion HSO4\N-, which has this name.

answer: hydrogen sulfate or bisulfate (do not accept or prompt on "sulfate" or "bisulfite")
That is the corrected version of the question.

The version that was used at HSNCT is as follows:
2016 HSNCT round 26 original version wrote:The saponification of animal fats to form soaps is an example of this class of reaction. For 10 points each--

A. In what class of reactions does water break apart a chemical bond?

answer: hydrolysis or hydrolytic reaction (accept hydrolyzing or hydrolyze)

B. The formation of a peptide bond is an example of this kind of reaction, the reverse of hydrolysis. It sometimes forms water as a byproduct.

answer: condensation reaction(s) (accept condensing or condense)

C. Hydrolysis of sulfuric acid yields the anion HSO4\N-, which has this name.

answer: hydrogen sulfate or bisulfate (do not accept or prompt on "sulfate" or "bisulfite")
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by hokie168 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:32 pm

setht wrote:
bird bird bird bird bird wrote:
2016 HSNCT round 26 wrote:
The version that was used at HSNCT is as follows:
2016 HSNCT round 26 original version wrote:The saponification of animal fats to form soaps is an example of this class of reaction. For 10 points each--

A. In what class of reactions does water break apart a chemical bond?

answer: hydrolysis or hydrolytic reaction (accept hydrolyzing or hydrolyze)

B. The formation of a peptide bond is an example of this kind of reaction, the reverse of hydrolysis. It sometimes forms water as a byproduct.

answer: condensation reaction(s) (accept condensing or condense)

C. Hydrolysis of sulfuric acid yields the anion HSO4\N-, which has this name.

answer: hydrogen sulfate or bisulfate (do not accept or prompt on "sulfate" or "bisulfite")
Could someone involved please explain the reasoning behind the condensation reactions protest? Thanks.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by bluejay123 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:11 pm

Condensation reaction means the production of water as a reaction product.
Dehydration synthesis is the addition of two substances to form a substance and water, both as reaction products.
Thus, condensation reaction = dehydration synthesis.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by touchpack » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:42 am

bluejay123 wrote:Condensation reaction means the production of water as a reaction product.
Dehydration synthesis is the addition of two substances to form a substance and water, both as reaction products.
Thus, condensation reaction = dehydration synthesis.
Put bluntly, no, you're wrong.

A condensation is formally defined as "A reaction in which two molecules combine to form a larger molecule with the elimination of a small molecule, in many cases water" (definition from Organic Chemistry by Mark Loudon, 5th edition, but you can find many other identical definitions with a simple google search)

A dehydration reaction is a reaction in which "the elements of water are lost from the starting material" (definition again from Loudon, although you can find many other identical definitions online)

As such, dehydration reactions are a proper subset of condensations, but they are not identical. I have more thoughts on this situation but I'll hold them for now.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by setht » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:37 pm

hokie168 wrote:Could someone involved please explain the reasoning behind the condensation reactions protest? Thanks.
Sure. For reference, here's the text of the question as it was read at HSNCT:
2016 HSNCT round 26 original version wrote:The saponification of animal fats to form soaps is an example of this class of reaction. For 10 points each--

A. In what class of reactions does water break apart a chemical bond?

answer: hydrolysis or hydrolytic reaction (accept hydrolyzing or hydrolyze)

B. The formation of a peptide bond is an example of this kind of reaction, the reverse of hydrolysis. It sometimes forms water as a byproduct.

answer: condensation reaction(s) (accept condensing or condense)

C. Hydrolysis of sulfuric acid yields the anion HSO4\N-, which has this name.

answer: hydrogen sulfate or bisulfate (do not accept or prompt on "sulfate" or "bisulfite")
The first sentence points clearly and uniquely to dehydration synthesis. The second sentence points to a larger class of reactions than just dehydration synthesis, but the protest committee didn't feel the wording was clear enough in picking out a larger class—it seemed like dehydration synthesis could be argued to (vacuously) fit the clues of the second sentence. Given that, the committee did not feel it was appropriate to reject an answer of dehydration synthesis (which was the one answer that correctly fit the clues of the first sentence).

We apologize for the nonideal wording of this question (which we have changed for future use).

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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:49 am

The other problem with that bonus part is that for the first sentence, if you're being anal about it, condensation is strictly INcorrect, because the reverse of hydrolysis in the strictest sense is dehydration synthesis, and NOT condensation. If you're not ok with subsets for the second sentence, you shouldn't be ok with supersets for the first.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Ike » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:57 am

I don't know much about this but I want to understand something:
it seemed like dehydration synthesis could be argued to (vacuously) fit the clues of the second sentence.
I highlighted vacuously here because I'm assuming that what you're trying to say is:

It's a vacuous truth to say "If a dehydration synthesis forms water as a by-product " ... then the answer of dehydration synthesis will apply to the second sentence of this bonus part, since dehydration synthesis _always_ produces water as a by-product.

If that's what you / the protest committee are / is trying to say, I disagree with this logic. Normal English usage of the word sometimes means "sometimes and not always." The only time I can think of where you would incorrectly use a definition of sometimes to mean "sometimes and sometimes always" is when you're converting logical formulas into English, and want to find a shorthand for "sometimes and sometimes always" so that your conditional can be treated as an improper subset of always.

Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something about the use of the word vacuously here.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by setht » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:46 am

Ike wrote:I don't know much about this but I want to understand something:
it seemed like dehydration synthesis could be argued to (vacuously) fit the clues of the second sentence.
I highlighted vacuously here because I'm assuming that what you're trying to say is:

It's a vacuous truth to say "If a dehydration synthesis forms water as a by-product " ... then the answer of dehydration synthesis will apply to the second sentence of this bonus part, since dehydration synthesis _always_ produces water as a by-product.

If that's what you / the protest committee are / is trying to say, I disagree with this logic. Normal English usage of the word sometimes means "sometimes and not always." The only time I can think of where you would incorrectly use a definition of sometimes to mean "sometimes and sometimes always" is when you're converting logical formulas into English, and want to find a shorthand for "sometimes and sometimes always" so that your conditional can be treated as an improper subset of always.

Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something about the use of the word vacuously here.
Your interpretation is what we had in mind. And I agree with you that saying "if X always happens in reaction Y, then X sometimes happens in reaction Y" is not normal English usage of the word sometimes.

But it seemed to us that the first sentence of the bonus (as read at HSNCT) uniquely picked out a single answer (dehydration synthesis), and did so in a very clear manner. The second sentence confused matters with the "sometimes" clue, but since it seemed to us that the wording didn't absolutely rule out dehydration synthesis, we didn't feel it was right to reject that as an answer.

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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by sambrochin » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:09 pm

Can I see the question on Who from Who's on First?
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:24 pm

2016 HSNCT round 5 wrote:Sometimes this person's wife "comes down and collects" his monthly paycheck. It is never specified what player would get the assist leading to this person executing a 9-3 put-out. This person's name is not "Naturally," and he should not be confused with (*) I Don't Know, though he, I Don't Know, and What execute a hypothetical triple play. For 10 points—name this first baseman from an Abbott-and-Costello routine.

answer: Who (accept Who's on First; prompt on answers mentioning "first base")
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by sambrochin » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:06 pm

That was the worst question I've ever heard. I loved it.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:09 pm

One thing that I would like to see in future iterations of HSNCT in the statistics would be a small parenthetical by each player's name that tells what grade they're in. In the PACE stats, all (or most) players have (Jr) or (Sr) by their names and to me that seems like an easy thing that would make stats just that much more interesting. Because national tournaments draw so many players from so many different regions, it's interesting to see who's graduating and who's just a sophomore, because most players are people whom I would have never met.

I know this is the discussion about the set but I didn't know where else to post this.
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:47 am

The Baking of the English Working Class wrote:One thing that I would like to see in future iterations of HSNCT in the statistics would be a small parenthetical by each player's name that tells what grade they're in. In the PACE stats, all (or most) players have (Jr) or (Sr) by their names and to me that seems like an easy thing that would make stats just that much more interesting. Because national tournaments draw so many players from so many different regions, it's interesting to see who's graduating and who's just a sophomore, because most players are people whom I would have never met.

I know this is the discussion about the set but I didn't know where else to post this.
No need to wait until future iterations!
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Corry » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:38 pm

I just noticed this while listening to the HSNCT podcasts (great stuff, by the way), but a tossup on Coriolanus? That had a 27% conversion at the 2014 HSNCT, come on guys!
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:34 pm

learn [clap emoji] more [clap emoji] shakespeare
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:50 pm

Conversion data that people asked for:

real gases: 0-5-5 in five rooms
colon (CS): 10-65-52 in 86 rooms
quintic: 0-9-7 in ten rooms; note that this was affected by a missing prompt on "polynomial," which would have only been resolved if it could have affected the outcome of the game
prolactin: 0-4-8 in nine rooms
Erving Goffman: 1-1-3 in 16 rooms
Coriolanus: 0-14-8 in 26 rooms

Measuring by points per room, the hardest question read in at least five rooms was prolactin (followed immediately by Goffman, then William O. Douglas). The best-converted tossups read in least five rooms were Joe DiMaggio (mixed), Alexander Calder, and Waterloo (all powers in five, six, and six rooms respectively).

Looking only questions read in at least 75 rooms (i.e., all or almost all the prelim rooms), the hardest questions were William O. Douglas, Lucia di Lammermoor, and Erik Larson; the best-converted were Japan (in 19th century trade history), Artemis Fowl, and Korea (from food clues).

Again using 75 rooms as the cutoff, 56 tossups had under 75% conversion, while 241 had at least 75%; the overall conversion rate was 87%.


Any other questions about conversion data? We have bonus data too.
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Location: Farhaven, Ontario

Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Benin Rebirth Party » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:09 pm

Cody wrote:
Rudolf Volz's Hamlet In Rock wrote:Also, I'm sure this has been discussed before, but what is NAQT's policy on including warnings such as "Description acceptable" at the beginning of appropriate questions? My teammate didn't buzz with "Zootopia police" even though she knew it, and after the question, she said, "That thing has a name?" I think including a "description acceptable" warning would also be helpful on questions like "the JFK assassination rifle" or "the iPhone of the San Bernadino shooter", as I think some people might have been dissuaded from buzzing if they thought there was a proper name for the rifle they did not know of, or if they thought they needed the shooter's name to have their answer ruled as correct.
Most of these have nothing to do with description acceptable -- if a thing doesn't have a name (such as the JFK rifle), that warning is stupid. There's no name for it so a warning that you can give a description instead of a name makes no sense.
Rizwan Farook has a name and the fact his was not needed during his iPhone's tossup was not evident during the question.

Could I see the conversion stats on "triple"? 3/3 deservedly negged with "cross" up north, interested how it played out.
Joe Su
Lisgar 2012, McGill 2015, McGill 20--

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jonah
Auron
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Location: Chicago

Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:22 pm

raffi_-_c-a-n-a-d-a.mp3 wrote:Could I see the conversion stats on "triple"? 3/3 deservedly negged with "cross" up north, interested how it played out.
0-74-24 in 85 rooms.
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

Andruwxnsa
Lulu
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by Andruwxnsa » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:39 pm

Could I see the conversion statistics on William O. Douglas, Poisson distribution, and Candide? Thanks!
Rohin Devanathan
Solon High School '16
UC Berkeley '20

jonah
Auron
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Location: Chicago

Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:50 pm

Andruwxnsa wrote:Could I see the conversion statistics on William O. Douglas, Poisson distribution, and Candide? Thanks!
Douglas: 6-8-18 in 86 rooms
Poisson distribution: 3-2-1 in 8 rooms
Candide: 16-5-2 in 21 rooms
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

themanwho
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Re: 2016 HSNCT discussion

Post by themanwho » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:28 pm

AKKOLADE wrote:Nobody calls amphotericin B by its brand name any more, unless they've been practicing medicine forever. I've taken two courses on antibiotics and I don't remember ever discussing that brand name.
I'm a practicing pharmacy technician at a major metropolitan hospital, and we use the brand names (Ambisome especially.) What was the question?

ETA: Nevermind, I see it was posted upthread. My comment is probably irrelevant.
Myron Meyer, Sioux Falls

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