ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by A Very Long Math Tossup » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:34 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:14 pm
The bottom line is that without a strong showing of support for a Minnesota mirror -- whether underlain by a formal rule directing teams there or not -- it just won't happen. I encourage people who would be likely to play a UMN mirror to list their names or their teams on this spreadsheet. The main purpose of the Notes columns are to indicate whether your attendance depends on the date. This information will help us figure out whether we can run a mirror or not. Of course, we will take into account that not everyone is on the forums all the time.

Signing up on this spreadsheet is certainly not committing to play, but we also can't be in a position where we think we have enough interest to run a mirror and then everyone flakes. Please be judicious.

EDIT: swapped out link for one I can allow people to edit more easily
This spreadsheet is currently set to private.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Muriel Axon » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:52 pm

Sorry, I managed to replace the old link with...itself. Here's the proper link!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by theMoMA » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:47 pm

Mirrors exist to serve players, by giving them a chance to play a tournament. Players do not exist to serve mirrors, by giving them business.
Mirrors should also be configured to avoid coordination problems between sites. I realize that you're proceeding from the mirrors as they exist and addressing the issue of whether there should be restrictions on the sites that certain teams or players attend, but ideally, the mirrors should not be placed such that one of the sites cannibalizes another to the extent that the second site is not viable. This seems particularly important when the negatively impacted site is the school of a good portion of the writers for the set. I realize that some teams might not be able to attend a Minnesota mirror, but to me it seems pretty messed up to place sites so that teams that would otherwise attend a Minnesota site have a slight disincentive from doing so that consequently kills the site.

Assuming the sites are not going to be changed, I don't think that it's a good idea to have a formal rule dictating who can and cannot attend a certain site, but I do think it would be courteous of the bigger clubs in the Midwest, as well as the retired players who would likely travel anywhere to play this event, to choose to attend the Minnesota site if at all possible, even if it's a longer trip. (I do not say this out of self-interest; I'd play this tournament at another Midwest site if necessary.) I think we can all agree that it's good when more teams can play an event, and I hope we can all agree that it's good to allow teams to host events that they're writing. The issue is that, by placing a mirror slightly closer to some of the bigger clubs in the region, the editors of this tournament have made it difficult for both of those principles to be satisfied. I hope that teams and players will be courteous and choose to support the Minnesota site so that teams like Michigan State can play still and the team that's writing can still host.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:04 pm

It seems to me that the particular problem arising here is related to the fact that the axis mundi of the Midwest is found, unsurprisingly, in the state of Illinois, and particularly in Chicago and its environs. The logical solution seems to be to host the Midwest mirror in Chicago. However, this tournament is a "Minnesota Open" so that does seem to disenfranchise the authors of this tournament.

I wish there were a similarly simple solution for the Eastern seaboard, but the modern incarnation of the Northeast circuit seems pretty unwilling to venture particularly far for tournaments. And of course, Yale has every right to host a tournament that they're writing a gigantic portion of.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by vinteuil » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:16 pm

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:04 pm
I wish there were a similarly simple solution for the Eastern seaboard, but the modern incarnation of the Northeast circuit seems pretty unwilling to venture particularly far for tournaments. And of course, Yale has every right to host a tournament that they're writing a gigantic portion of.
Will, you've posted about this like three times in this discussion, so I just want to make it clear that the decision to have a separate Northeast site is entirely to do with the first sentence of this paragraph. There is no world in which it's a good idea to have a single, Mid-Atlantic East-coast mirror for almost any tournament; Northeast teams will not come.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Scipio » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:17 am

I would like to express interest in attending the GA Tech version of this, but am not sure how. Can someone provide more details?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by JKHtay » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:58 pm

Scipio wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:17 am
I would like to express interest in attending the GA Tech version of this, but am not sure how. Can someone provide more details?
We will be posting an announcement shortly, but you're welcome to contact me at jhtay3 at gatech dot edu or via PM if you have any questions.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Cheynem » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 pm

Can we get some confirmation about the existence of the Minnesota mirror or not? There's like maybe 6 teams-worth of people signed up now, a decent but not great field (although a lot of great players, most of which are on two teams, lol), and almost no teams from schools (a number of which from the Chicagoland and IL area I presume are going to Ohio State). Is that going to be enough to keep the tournament going?

I should also note that the central dilemma first brought up was never solved and appears unlikely to be. There is no indication the Ohio State mirror is being cancelled (note: not what I'm calling for) and I would presume a lot of teams from Chicago, IL, and Michigan are going there. Thus, the complaint about field dilution seems valid.

Now, I, being someone who doesn't win or score doesn't particularly care about field dilution, but a number of people in this thread have indicated they do and might even not attend a field-diluted tournament. Does that also weigh in to what happens?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Muriel Axon » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:41 pm

Given that UMN can likely field around two house teams, I doubt we will cancel the mirror. The date is still to be decided.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by touchpack » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:18 am

Can you guys decide on a date soon? I work ~26 weekends a year and need to request time off well in advance.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by A Very Long Math Tossup » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:28 am

touchpack wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:18 am
Can you guys decide on a date soon? I work ~26 weekends a year and need to request time off well in advance.
As someone flying in, I heavily second this.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Aaron's Rod » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:28 pm

A Very Long Math Tossup wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:28 am
touchpack wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:18 am
Can you guys decide on a date soon? I work ~26 weekends a year and need to request time off well in advance.
As someone flying in, I heavily second this.
It would be really nice if this could get resolved soon!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Muriel Axon » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:33 pm

Sorry everyone! We've decided on March 30 and I just have to put up the announcement (Internet access currently spotty). Thanks for your patience.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Mike Bentley » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:54 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:33 pm
Sorry everyone! We've decided on March 30 and I just have to put up the announcement (Internet access currently spotty). Thanks for your patience.
Do you envision there being any Sunday events?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Muriel Axon » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:03 pm

That is a good question. The UMN team has to pay for Sunday rooms, which means it's often a poor financial decision for us to host Sunday side events. I'll talk it over with our board; perhaps we can find an alternate venue for side events. (To be honest, I'm also out-of-the-loop to the extent that I don't event know what candidate side events there are.)

I am no longer travelling, so rest assured that I will aim to be more responsive now! (And I'll put the UMN mirror announcement post up by tomorrow.)
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:33 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:03 pm
That is a good question. The UMN team has to pay for Sunday rooms, which means it's often a poor financial decision for us to host Sunday side events. I'll talk it over with our board; perhaps we can find an alternate venue for side events. (To be honest, I'm also out-of-the-loop to the extent that I don't event know what candidate side events there are.)

I am no longer travelling, so rest assured that I will aim to be more responsive now! (And I'll put the UMN mirror announcement post up by tomorrow.)
Last year we were able to defray costs a bit by increasing side event fees, and I think people would generally rather pay a bit more than have nothing to play on Sunday. A full second event (like a trash tournament mirror or something) would probably be the likeliest sort of standard event to attract a big field enabling you to make money back; another option would be running side events as one-to-three-room shootouts to help keep total costs down.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by CPiGuy » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:29 pm

Is there a date planned for the OSU mirror? We're trying to decide when to host our high school state tournament and would like to know the details.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Muriel Axon » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Rob's comment -- yes, I just attempted to get in touch with Macalester and St. Thomas teams to see if booking rooms is free for them on Sundays; but it may well be that people are willing to pay $10-15 extra (total, across all side events) to be spared the inconvenience of going to a different venue on Sunday.

EDIT: to clarify, Macalester and St. Thomas are both in St. Paul -- not far from the UMN Minneapolis campus, and accessible by transit, but not walkable.
Last edited by Muriel Axon on Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by ryanrosenberg » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:50 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:38 pm
Re: Rob's comment -- yes, I just attempted to get in touch with Macalester and St. Thomas teams to see if booking rooms is free for them on Sundays; but it may well be that people are willing to pay $10-15 extra (total, across all side events) to be spared the inconvenience of going to a different venue on Sunday.
I would be willing to do that.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Cheynem » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:19 pm

Seconding interest in when Johns Hopkins/Ohio State will be running their mirrors.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by vinteuil » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:03 pm

Hi everyone—the JHU date is now in the parent post (3/9), and we should have a date for the OSU mirror soon. Thanks for your patience!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by CPiGuy » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:23 am

vinteuil wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:03 pm
Hi everyone—the JHU date is now in the parent post (3/9), and we should have a date for the OSU mirror soon. Thanks for your patience!
Is there any progress on a date for the OSU mirror? Right now it just says "March 9 or later".
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by CPiGuy » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:34 pm

CPiGuy wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:23 am
vinteuil wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:03 pm
Hi everyone—the JHU date is now in the parent post (3/9), and we should have a date for the OSU mirror soon. Thanks for your patience!
Is there any progress on a date for the OSU mirror? Right now it just says "March 9 or later".
It having been another week since I asked this, and three since Jacob said we'd have a date soon: do we have a firm date? If this goes on much longer, we're going to have to schedule a firm date for our HS state tournament, PIANO attendance be damned. (It's also interfering with my ability to book flights home for spring break, on a more selfish note.)
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Cheynem » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:38 pm

Yeah, this is kind of nuts. People want to go to these tournaments, but they have to know when the tournaments will be.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by sephirothrr » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:31 pm

For those of you looking for a site to play this tournament might I humbly suggest March 30 at the University of Minnesota? I hear that tournament is announced and has a field and everything, so it's sure to satisfy all your quizbowl-playing needs.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Cheynem » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:27 pm

I'd love to play at MInnesota, but I can't play on the 30th, which is why I'm curious to know if OSU will be on a different date!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by CPiGuy » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:43 pm

sephirothrr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:31 pm
For those of you looking for a site to play this tournament might I humbly suggest March 30 at the University of Minnesota? I hear that tournament is announced and has a field and everything, so it's sure to satisfy all your quizbowl-playing needs.
As has been established, Michigan would prefer not to travel ten hours when we could instead travel three.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by sephirothrr » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:45 pm

CPiGuy wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:43 pm
sephirothrr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:31 pm
For those of you looking for a site to play this tournament might I humbly suggest March 30 at the University of Minnesota? I hear that tournament is announced and has a field and everything, so it's sure to satisfy all your quizbowl-playing needs.
As has been established, Michigan would prefer not to travel ten hours when we could instead travel three.
wow traveling ten hours for a tournament, that must be horrible
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by CPiGuy » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:50 pm

sephirothrr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:45 pm
CPiGuy wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:43 pm
sephirothrr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:31 pm
For those of you looking for a site to play this tournament might I humbly suggest March 30 at the University of Minnesota? I hear that tournament is announced and has a field and everything, so it's sure to satisfy all your quizbowl-playing needs.
As has been established, Michigan would prefer not to travel ten hours when we could instead travel three.
wow traveling ten hours for a tournament, that must be horrible
Irrespective of debates over arduous travel times, the head editors have clearly indicated on multiple occasions that they intend for there to be an OSU mirror, and have even given it an (extremely vague) tentative date. It's not unreasonable to ask them for either a solid date or more information on why they don't have one when they, and OSU, have been totally silent on this for three weeks.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by CPiGuy » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:33 pm

CPiGuy wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:34 pm
CPiGuy wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:23 am
vinteuil wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:03 pm
Hi everyone—the JHU date is now in the parent post (3/9), and we should have a date for the OSU mirror soon. Thanks for your patience!
Is there any progress on a date for the OSU mirror? Right now it just says "March 9 or later".
It having been another week since I asked this, and three since Jacob said we'd have a date soon: do we have a firm date? If this goes on much longer, we're going to have to schedule a firm date for our HS state tournament, PIANO attendance be damned. (It's also interfering with my ability to book flights home for spring break, on a more selfish note.)
This is getting ridiculous. Almost two more weeks. Only about a month away from the tournament's earliest possible date. Still no information whatsoever about the tournament. What could possibly be causing such a holdup?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by DumbJaques » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:43 pm

This is getting ridiculous. Almost two more weeks. Only about a month away from the tournament's earliest possible date. Still no information whatsoever about the tournament. What could possibly be causing such a holdup?
Hey everyone - sincere apologies about this. We're dealing with a series of issues regarding room reservations and regional coordination that have now (almost) been resolved. The event will assuredly be on the weekend of 3/23, though it may end up having to be on Sunday (3/24).

The delay has been twofold, in that we've had to negotiate with OSU being bizarrely weird about rooms in March, and we've had to coordinate with shifting schedules for Midwest tournament's this semester. Most recently, that's been about Wright State moving their late-announced Spartan Housewrite mirror (which, to the assured benefit of the region, they've graciously agreed to do because they're awesome). My impression was that you actually explicitly knew about this though - don't I have an email from you responding to a query about attendance for that weekend?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by CPiGuy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:46 pm

DumbJaques wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:43 pm
This is getting ridiculous. Almost two more weeks. Only about a month away from the tournament's earliest possible date. Still no information whatsoever about the tournament. What could possibly be causing such a holdup?
Hey everyone - sincere apologies about this. We're dealing with a series of issues regarding room reservations and regional coordination that have now (almost) been resolved. The event will assuredly be on the weekend of 3/23, though it may end up having to be on Sunday (3/24).

The delay has been twofold, in that we've had to negotiate with OSU being bizarrely weird about rooms in March, and we've had to coordinate with shifting schedules for Midwest tournament's this semester. Most recently, that's been about Wright State moving their late-announced Spartan Housewrite mirror (which, to the assured benefit of the region, they've graciously agreed to do because they're awesome). My impression was that you actually explicitly knew about this though - don't I have an email from you responding to a query about attendance for that weekend?
You do have an email from me, which you didn't respond to or in any way indicate that you had received, so I had no idea whether it had had any effect, hence my continuing to post about it. It was also the second email from me about the tournament, not that you acknowledged the first one. My knowledge about when the tournament would be was "maybe 3/2, maybe 3/24, maybe some other date", since that's pretty much the sum total of what I'd heard.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by jasongg17 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:53 pm

Online: date TBD
Just so folks know, I'll be running this on discord at some point if demand is there for it even after people play the in-person mirrors (though do not take that statement to mean that the online mirror will necessarily be held at a date later than all of the in-person mirrors). That said, the entire PIANO production team and I agree that we definitely would strongly prefer that everybody who CAN play at an in-person mirror DOES play at an in-person mirror. Therefore I will be holding off on drafting a formal date poll/announcement until we have a better sense of how the in-person mirrors' fields will look. Thanks for folks' patience and apologies, especially given Mike Cheyne's very necessary and incontrovertibly correct recent post on the subject, for how necessarily short notice the announcement thread for the online mirror will therefore be, but do note that the earlier people sign-up for in-person mirrors, the earlier the online mirror's announcement (or the announcement that there isn't a need/demand for one) will be.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by jasongg17 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:24 pm

Barring extreme circumstances, I will be holding the discord mirror on the date most favored by a significant margin in the date poll, 3/10. Here is a link to the announcement http://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22449. Again, please attend an in-person mirror if it is remotely feasible for you to do so. Apologies for the delay and necessarily short notice.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by vinteuil » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:26 pm

Since I seem not to have announced this, I should say that this tournament's literature was mostly edited by Will H-M and the philosophy by Joey Goldman—get excited!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by vinteuil » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:20 am

Courtesy of Matt Jackson, here are a few conclusions we've come to about how the set is playing, difficulty-wise:
  • bonuses are noticeably easier to 20 than the most recent Nats, though seemingly not easier to 30 and maybe slightly harder to 30
  • lumping 15s and 10s, tossups are gotten at about the same rate as the most recent Nats
  • tossups are harder to power than at ICT; the last ICT had several teams that were at or a little below 3 powers per 20 tossups heard, and at this event single-school teams are struggling to get to 2 PowP20TUH
That is to say, the tournament is most likely, empirically, around a "4," which is to say Nationals difficulty with no minus. (I would like to venture that our tossup answerlines and middle parts were, on the whole, more accessible than the previous two pre-Nats opens—take this or leave it as "noticeably easier," but that was my main focus in any case.)
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

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Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:18 pm

I would caution teams playing this set that, in terms of how it played out, it felt similar in difficulty to George Oppen and definitely harder than CMST - if I were to rank it on Ophir's difficulty scale, it would come out around a 4.5, or a "Nats-plus/CO-minus" rating. I would otherwise agree with Matt Jackson's assessment. Relatedly, major kudos to the numerous high schoolers who decided to play this tournament through regardless of its extreme difficulty, and to Chicago A for being extremely good at quizbowl.
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

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heterodyne
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by heterodyne » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:00 pm

I think MJ/Jacob's assessment of this set as "nats with generally more accessible answerlines" (apologies if this is too much of a caricature) pretty accurately characterizes my experience playing it. I certainly do not think it qualifies as nats+, at least in those categories where I know enough to judge. While this does mean the set overshot the stated difficulty goal (certainly not a problem unique to PIANO!) I do think that it still serves as good preparation for playing a tournament of nationals difficulty.
Alston [Montgomery] Boyd
Bloomington High School '15
UChicago '19
UChicago Divinity '21
he/him/his or they/them/their

Banana Stand
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by Banana Stand » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:49 am

This is slightly late, but I've finally played all the packets and I have to say that this set is not as hard as some people are making it out to be. The answerlines are mostly very reasonable (I'd say moreso than recent spring opens) and there was a lot of great early cluing. If you're playing on the 23rd, don't worry about it being oppressively hard, because it isn't.
Jack Mehr
St. Joe's NJ '14
UVA '19

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vinteuil
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 2019 PIANO/Minnesota Open

Post by vinteuil » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:15 pm

This set is now clear and will be posted later today after typos and last-minute errata are fixed.
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

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