2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by adamsil »

Bloodwych wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:49 pm
cisplatin forms crosslinks
It is alkylating-like in that it can interstrand crosslink (N7-N7 for instance) despite not having carbons; it's a mechanistic description more than a literal one and cyclophosphamide works similarly

stuff:
- why did the alkyne question not accept or prompt on "ethynyl" at the estradiol clue?
I specifically wrote the alkynes tossup as "these compounds" to prevent that sort of buzz, since although people call alkynes functional groups, they're not, really, and I didn't want to confuse the nomenclature. I'll see what I can do to clean up the wording, but I don't think you can really call "ethynyl" a type of compound.

@Neil, not going to quote your whole post, since much of it isn't my stuff but:
My apologies on the NAND gate tossup if there were confusing clues. I'll go back through that literature shortly to fix the clues for future mirrors; it is not a subject that I recall from since writing the question.

The main intent for the interferometer clue was, indeed, to recognize those abbreviations for the sites, which I recalled being used in many of the press releases for the gravity wave announcements; I'll concede that it's likely too vague to help people get to the right answer, and reword.

I'll reword the particle number clue; I could see how that winds up being confusing at game speed.

Graph coloring was indeed supposed to be somewhere between CS and math, drawing liberally from both. R was classified as Other Academic, not CS or Math, with the thought that Actual Computer Scientists would likely not enjoy a question about R in their distribution, and it's widely used in non-science fields as well. (It's also kind of crazy to me that R hasn't come up to my knowledge in quizbowl before, and I wanted to include a question about it somewhere) Unfortunately, it then got packetized with an actual programming tossup, which was an oversight on my part, and will be fixed for future mirrors.

TLRs:
RNase [R-N-aze] inhibitors share a conserved leucine-rich, horseshoe-shaped domain found on these proteins that naturally binds a ligand called Spaetzle [SPETT-zluh]. Oncoviruses often inactivate one of these proteins that binds to any DNA sequence with unmethylated C·p·Gs. Flagellin agonizes these proteins and stimulates a signaling cascade through My·D·88 and then N·F-kappa-B. After Christiane Nüsslein-Volhard inadvertently discovered these proteins are homologous to a dorsal patterning Hox gene in (*) Drosophila, she gave them their common name by shouting “That’s amazing!” in German. The fourth numbered protein in this class recognizes lipo𑁦polysaccharide, and the ninth one is displayed by dendritic cells and macrophages. For 10 points, name these nonspecific cell-surface receptors that initiate the innate immune response.
ANSWER: Toll-like receptors [or TLRs; prompt on partial answers] <AS>

Golden Stool:
Ivor Wilks argued that this object’s function was completed by the holder of an elephant’s tail. This object is currently flanked by two masks mocking a Gyaaman king who copied it, as well as by two bells that were used in ordeals to reveal who had sold parts of it after railroad workers unearthed it in 1921. This object’s name refers to its “birth on a Friday,” and it appears in a black band surrounded by yellow and green bands on a flag flown above the Manhyia Palace. This object is said to contain a nation’s (*) sumsum. Attempts to enforce the Treaty of Fomena prompted an ill-advised speech about this object, which Okomfo Anokye caused to fall from the sky into the lap of Osei Tutu I. After Prempeh I’s exile in the Seychelles, Frederick Hodgson demanded this object from Queen Yaa, sparking a revolt that led to the conquest of Kumasi. For 10 points, what throne names the last Anglo-Ashanti war?
ANSWER: Golden Stool [or Sika Dwa Kofi] <MW>
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriel Axon »

Re: Neil's comments:

I can understand the concern about the thermohaline circulation toss-up -- in fact, I thought for a while before deciding to keep the words "Sverdrup balance" in there. The most notable feature of the Stommel-Arons model is that it shows localized sources (sinking water) and spatially distributed sinks (upwelling). The prediction that the water will flow from the localized sources towards the equator comes from Sverdrup vorticity balance. I decided to keep this language because (1) it is true and important, and (2) I thought it was important to clue people in, by this point in the question, that we're definitely talking about the oceans. There are potential alternatives (writing something about the assumption of geostrophic flow or conservation of potential vorticity or whatever), but I wasn't sure I could write them in an entirely accurate way. But I can look into it, and I'm open to suggestions.

On the other hand, the word 'fisheries' is fairly commonplace, and I don't feel bad about asking people to know what it means.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by CadenPetrosian »

Could I see the Rimbaud tossup please? I've read The Drunken Boat several times but none of the lines were actually ringing a bell. Was it clued anywhere other than the FTP? If it was then I probably just did a poor job of remembering the poem.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil »

CadenPetrosian wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:39 am Could I see the Rimbaud tossup please? I've read The Drunken Boat several times but none of the lines were actually ringing a bell. Was it clued anywhere other than the FTP? If it was then I probably just did a poor job of remembering the poem.
The Drunken Boat was only clued at the end:
A poem by this man describes an “open-mouthed, bare-headed” man who is “smiling as / a sick child might smile” and whose nostrils do not “quiver” at any odor. That sonnet by this author begins with the image of “A green hole where a river sings” and ends with the “two red holes” in the side of a soldier “sleeping” in the title “valley.” Another sonnet by this author compares waves to “the peace of the furrows / which alchemy prints on broad studious foreheads.” That poem by this author describes the things that include a “supreme (*) Clarion full of strange piercing sounds” and a “black velvet jacket of brilliant flies / which buzz around cruel smells.” This author called one of the title things the “Omega, violet ray of [his] eyes” in a poem beginning “A black, E white, I red, U green, O blue.” For 10 points, name this French poet who wrote “Vowels” and The Drunken Boat.
The idea was to clue his more under-exposed (but extremely widely-read!) sonnets.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by The Sawing-Off of Manhattan Island »

A couple things:
-Could I see the inverter clue for the NAND gate tossup? It seems like that clue should also apply to XOR gates (though perhaps that got ruled out by something else in the sentence that I missed)

-The graph coloring tossup dropped "a structure named for Petersen" seemingly early (assuming that referred to the Petersen graph) - seemed to reduce the tu to "what process can you perform on a graph" in power

-I thought negative index of refraction was a pretty neat idea for a tossup, and both debugging a program and states seemed like pretty interesting CS answerlines (I appreciate the set not classifying R as CS), also the CS bonus about big O runtime seemed quite fun and a good way to test real CS knowledge

-The Anne Bradstreet's house tu's pronoun felt pretty confusing before the clues about the specific poem - someone negged on clues about the Berryman poem w/ "the New World"; at that point in the q it seems very hard to pull the prompt chain (maybe saying "this building" for that clue would help?)

-The replacement tu about _storms_ didn't seem to handle buzzes about floods during the Their Eyes Were Watching God clue

-All of the drama tus were very cool; I enjoy the overall slant in how this set asked about drama

Thank you for the set! It was a good time
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil »

Karansebes Schnapps Vendor wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:44 pm
-The replacement tu about _storms_ didn't seem to handle buzzes about floods during the Their Eyes Were Watching God clue
This is now fixed—stupid of me not to think of that buzz!
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriatic »

My teammates would also like to see the Almohavid tossup.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Majin Buu Roi »

Muriatic wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:57 am My teammates would also like to see the Almohavid tossup.
You mean this tossup, right?

11. This dynasty’s founder allegedly restored morale after a brutal loss by burying some of his troops on the battlefield with breathing straws, having them tell his other troops how nice heaven is, and then covering the straws. That loss for this dynasty, known as the Battle of al-Buḥayra, killed most of the advisors known as the Council of Ten. The Zayyānid and Hafsid dynasties split from the rule of this dynasty, whose founder built a fortress at Tinmel after a retreat in the (*) Cave of Igiliz. This dynasty’s distinctive combination of Ẓāhirī jurisprudence and Ashʿarī theology was formalized under its first politically established leader, ʿAbd al-Muʾmin. The Marīnids overthrew this dynasty, which originated as a puritanical religious movement among the Maṣmūda Berbers under the leadership of the alleged Mahdī, Ibn Tūmart. For 10 points, name this dynasty that overthrew the Almoravids.
ANSWER: Almohad dynasty [accept al-Muwaḥḥidūn] <JG>
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by John Ketzkorn »

The science seemed to overshoot the difficulty of Nats minus (even Nats in some places).

human chorionic gonadotrophin? I was only pulling that at the end because of a ACF Nats bonus I had saw earlier this week.

Also some of these tossups could've been reworked to be non-country, non-language answerlines:

Japan
Russian (literature)
Switzerland
Argentina
Czech Republic
Egypt
Greek
Barcelona
Nigeria
Scotland
Hebrew
Australia
Polish
South Korea

RMPSS stuff that I'm not good at, so I don't know how reasonably these can be changed to something more interesting:
USA
Switzerland
South Africa
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil »

John Ketzkorn wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:09 pm Also some of these tossups could've been reworked to be non-country, non-language answerlines:

Japan
Russian (literature)
Switzerland
Argentina
Czech Republic
Egypt
Greek
Barcelona
Nigeria
Scotland
Hebrew
Australia
Polish
South Korea
Almost none of these tossups draw mostly from a single answerline's stock of clues (e.g. Stanislaw Lem/Poland). Are you making the (vacuous) claim that we could have written different questions, or were you under the (erroneous) impression that most of their clues were about a single creator or work?

(And Barcelona, of course, is not a country.)

Zooming out, there seems to be an aesthetic preference at work here, dubbing tossups on creators and works "interesting" and tossups on countries "uninteresting." Leaving aside the issue of whether "interesting" even matters with respect to tossup answerlines, I'm not sure why it's "uninteresting" to hear about the diversity of practices and instruments in traditional Australian music, the history of publishing in Nigeria, or the post-classical history of poetry in Greek.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by jmarvin_ »

Not to mention the Russian tossup (if it is the same one I'm thinking of) originally WAS just a Mayakovsky tossup, which was only changed after the first mirror for accessibility reasons.

The religion questions on USA and Switzerland were both done as they were so that knowledge of figures/movements which are too difficult to toss up on their own (like the Five Percent Nation or Hans Urs von Balthasar) could be included. Now people who know about the Theo-drama can get a good buzz and the question still isn't inaccessible to the much wider set of people who know about Karl Barth, or the even wider set of people who know about Calvin. The same with some of the literature: I wrote on Hebrew instead of Amos Oz, Zelda, or Shmuel Agnon because all of those answerlines are quite hard, for example. It's a method of making tossups more interesting even as the answerline may be less so: one can include obscure topics without making the tossup itself obscure. I think this is far superior, from the perspective of gameplay as well as aesthetics, to having every tossup be a deep dive into a core character, which when pushed too far inevitably becomes a collection of trivialities. Of course, some of those are worth writing and many of them were written for this set too.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Carlos Be »

vinteuil wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:49 pm I'm not sure why it's "uninteresting" to hear about the ... history of publishing in Nigeria
My reaction to this tossup was along the lines of "why are we asking about Nigerian publishing houses when we could be asking about the actual things that were published."
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by excessive dismemberment »

Could I see the tossups on Priam and Vulcan please? The early clues in those seemed very hard (but it's possible I should just learn more)
Also, I thought the degrees of freedom tossup seemed a bit half-baked as an idea for a tossup.

The Arabian Horse Association clue seemed early in the FEMA tossup, since I thought that was the most famous thing about Michael Brown to come out of Katrina.

Could I also see the Inca tossup? It seemed to cliff hard with the golden staff clue that comes up at every difficulty of quizbowl.

Loved the idea of a tossup on harmoniums, but weren't you describing an indian instrument with an accordian part pretty early in the tossup?

Thanks again for writing this tournament, there were some really cool ideas for questions
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

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rùdrâ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:48 pmLoved the idea of a tossup on harmoniums, but weren't you describing an indian instrument with an accordian part pretty early in the tossup?
Unless it has changed since I last touched it, there's no indication that it has an accordion part in the clues about Hindustani music, merely that it can't do glissandi, which means it could be some kind of percussive, flute-like, or piano-like instrument too. If you got it back there because you know what a shruti box is or are interested in Qawwali music, you deserve the points!
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by excessive dismemberment »

jmarvin_ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:08 pm
rùdrâ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:48 pmLoved the idea of a tossup on harmoniums, but weren't you describing an indian instrument with an accordian part pretty early in the tossup?
Unless it has changed since I last touched it, there's no indication that it has an accordion part in the clues about Hindustani music, merely that it can't do glissandi, which means it could be some kind of percussive, flute-like, or piano-like instrument too. If you got it back there because you know what a shruti box is or are interested in Qawwali music, you deserve the points!
It's very possible that I'm mis-remembering the order of clues, but now I'd love to see the question to see what was actually clued
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil »

rùdrâ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:20 pm
jmarvin_ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:08 pm
rùdrâ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:48 pmLoved the idea of a tossup on harmoniums, but weren't you describing an indian instrument with an accordian part pretty early in the tossup?
Unless it has changed since I last touched it, there's no indication that it has an accordion part in the clues about Hindustani music, merely that it can't do glissandi, which means it could be some kind of percussive, flute-like, or piano-like instrument too. If you got it back there because you know what a shruti box is or are interested in Qawwali music, you deserve the points!
It's very possible that I'm mis-remembering the order of clues, but now I'd love to see the question to see what was actually clued
Farrukh Fateh Ali Khan used this instrument to accompany the vocals of his brother Nusrat. This instrument supplanted the sarangi as the standard accompaniment for Qawwālī vocalists. A derivative of this instrument used to play drones is called a shruti box. Rabindranath Tagore’s older brother Dwijendranath introduced this instrument to the Indian subcontinent, where, despite complaints that it was incapable of glissandos, it eventually became widespread in (*) Hindustani music. In the 19th century, this relatively cheap and portable instrument, which is in the same family as the accordion, was often used in smaller churches, where it was later displaced by an electric instrument created by Laurens Hammond. This instrument doesn’t usually have a pedalboard, since the player’s feet are used to work the bellows. For 10 points, name this organ-like free reed keyboard instrument.
ANSWER: harmonium [accept reed organ, pump organ, and melodeon; prompt on organ; do not accept or prompt on “pipe organ”; anti-prompt on “shruti box” before mention by asking “which is a type of what instrument?”] <JM>
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

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vinteuil wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:21 pm
rùdrâ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:20 pm
jmarvin_ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:08 pm
rùdrâ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:48 pmLoved the idea of a tossup on harmoniums, but weren't you describing an indian instrument with an accordian part pretty early in the tossup?
Unless it has changed since I last touched it, there's no indication that it has an accordion part in the clues about Hindustani music, merely that it can't do glissandi, which means it could be some kind of percussive, flute-like, or piano-like instrument too. If you got it back there because you know what a shruti box is or are interested in Qawwali music, you deserve the points!
It's very possible that I'm mis-remembering the order of clues, but now I'd love to see the question to see what was actually clued
Farrukh Fateh Ali Khan used this instrument to accompany the vocals of his brother Nusrat. This instrument supplanted the sarangi as the standard accompaniment for Qawwālī vocalists. A derivative of this instrument used to play drones is called a shruti box. Rabindranath Tagore’s older brother Dwijendranath introduced this instrument to the Indian subcontinent, where, despite complaints that it was incapable of glissandos, it eventually became widespread in (*) Hindustani music. In the 19th century, this relatively cheap and portable instrument, which is in the same family as the accordion, was often used in smaller churches, where it was later displaced by an electric instrument created by Laurens Hammond. This instrument doesn’t usually have a pedalboard, since the player’s feet are used to work the bellows. For 10 points, name this organ-like free reed keyboard instrument.
ANSWER: harmonium [accept reed organ, pump organ, and melodeon; prompt on organ; do not accept or prompt on “pipe organ”; anti-prompt on “shruti box” before mention by asking “which is a type of what instrument?”] <JM>
Thanks! I was misremembering where the clue was placed, that looks fine. Although I'm not entirely sure the later clues make it much easier than the accordion clue.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by John Ketzkorn »

vinteuil wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:49 pm

Zooming out, there seems to be an aesthetic preference at work here, dubbing tossups on creators and works "interesting" and tossups on countries "uninteresting."

You also have to worry about the potential hazard of confusion with country tossups. Mitsuko Uchida, for example. Charlie Dees buzzed in and said "Japan, but she was raised in Austria," and although he did the right thing in preposing Japan (the answer he was ruled on), there's some possible ambiguity. What do we mean when we say "one work from this country" or "one work in this language"? There are equivocal cases to consider (Bartok being the textbook example -- born in modern-day Romania in the Hungary kingdom of the Austria-Hungarian empire). Many creators transcend their language (through translation) or country (for several reasons), and the "country" is not what they're most famous for.

Also re: a metaphysics discussion with Brad McLain -- substances was probably too hard.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

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John Ketzkorn wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:00 am Also re: a metaphysics discussion with Brad McLain -- substances was probably too hard.
Would you or Brad care to enlighten us on this point? (It's not exactly easy to go far with Aristotelian—and thus a lot of later—metaphysics without learning a thing or two about this topic.)
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

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vinteuil wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:49 pm the history of publishing in Nigeria
Can I see this?
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

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vinteuil wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:15 am
John Ketzkorn wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:00 am Also re: a metaphysics discussion with Brad McLain -- substances was probably too hard.
Would you or Brad care to enlighten us on this point? (It's not exactly easy to go far with Aristotelian—and thus a lot of later—metaphysics without learning a thing or two about this topic.)
The question was highly esoteric. I think I guessed "qualities" at the end (I thought I knew some of the essentials of Aristotle's metaphyics, but this went over my head). I heard "primary and secondary" earlier and figured "qualities" was my best shot (obviously that's Locke, but you gotta try). Jakob and I let it go dead, and Brad made the same guess as me. When I read the question to him, I realized how little of it was making sense, which is partly a product of the reading material. I believe Clark Smith / OSU also let this go dead. In honesty, I don't know even know what a "hylomorphic compound" is; I'm not a philosophy major, but surely a nats minus (now nats) level tournament could bend this to be more accessible. Perhaps this would play better as an Aristotle or Metaphysics tossup themed around substances?
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by heterodyne »

Hylomorphism is the core concept of Aristotelian metaphysics and substance-based metaphysics continued to be influential until the early modern period - if you've taken an intro to ancient philosophy or intro to medieval/early modern metaphysics you've engaged with a substance metaphysics. In fact, if you've read Descartes you've had to reckon with it. I think tossing up substance at a tournament of this difficulty is both entirely reasonable and probably not the most difficult philosophy answerline.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

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heterodyne wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:06 am Hylomorphism is the core concept of Aristotelian metaphysics and substance-based metaphysics continued to be influential until the early modern period - if you've taken an intro to ancient philosophy or intro to medieval/early modern metaphysics you've engaged with a substance metaphysics. In fact, if you've read Descartes you've had to reckon with it. I think tossing up substance at a tournament of this difficulty is both entirely reasonable and probably not the most difficult philosophy answerline.
This opinion is entirely correct; I learned about this idea from reading Descartes and Locke. My teammate unfortunately negged it, but I thought this was a very good idea for a tossup even if the power clues seemed hard. Was substratum or material substance acceptable?
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriel Axon »

I intended the question on Aristotelian substances to be a deep-canon tossup, like one sees in literature questions that touch on central themes in Paradise Lost or Moby-Dick. I understand why one might see it as tough -- despite being the central concept in the metaphysics of one of the top three most influential Western philosophers of all, it hasn't really come up very often. On the other hand, as Alston points out, if you've ever studied Aristotle or any of the dozens of philosophers influenced by Aristotelian metaphysics (or if you've studied Catholic theology), you likely know the concept.

EDIT: There's another justification I can offer for asking about "substances" and "judgment" as such: There's no clear way to turn them into questions on "Aristotle" or "Kant" without either being very transparent or giving up a bunch of important, deep clues. Any good philosophy player would buzz in and say 'Kant' the moment you start talking about antinomies and transcendental faculties. I thought "substances" and "judgment" would force people to think about what they were saying, without being outside the bounds of difficulty we intended for the tournament.
Was substratum or material substance acceptable?
The clues were exclusively from Aristotle, and not from later post-Descartes philosophers whose conception of what constitutes a substance is pretty different. I don't think I would take these answers, but I'll check to be sure that's the right call.

TU on Nigeria:

An author from this country founded the literary magazine Brittle Paper. Cordite Books was founded to make up for this country’s lack of crime fiction by the author of Oil on Water, Helon Habila. Ulli Beier founded this country’s first publishing house, as well as its magazine Black Orpheus and the literary Mbari Club. This country’s first published female novelist founded Tana Press after the success of her book Efuru. In the 1960s, three books from this country inaugurated a series published by Heinemann. An author from this home of (*) Cassava Republic Press wrote about the life of Nnu-Ego in The Joys of Motherhood. Citadel Press was co-founded in this country by the author of “Elegy for Alto.” A man from this country called Joseph Conrad a “thoroughgoing racist” in “An Image of Africa.” For 10 points, name this home of Flora Nwapa, Buchi Emecheta, Christopher Okigbo, and Chinua Achebe.
ANSWER: Federal Republic of Nigeria <DS>
Last edited by Muriel Axon on Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by John Ketzkorn »

heterodyne wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:06 am Hylomorphism is the core concept of Aristotelian metaphysics and substance-based metaphysics continued to be influential until the early modern period - if you've taken an intro to ancient philosophy or intro to medieval/early modern metaphysics you've engaged with a substance metaphysics. In fact, if you've read Descartes you've had to reckon with it. I think tossing up substance at a tournament of this difficulty is both entirely reasonable and probably not the most difficult philosophy answerline.
I assume you mean Meditations because this was not in Discourse (or if it was I dismissed it as being just a normal word).

While this may be a good way to differentiate the best philosophy players, it seems like you can still reframe it in a way accessible to the less hard-core philosophy players. I took an intro to philo (general overview) where this was not mentioned. Tossups of quiz bowl past seem to think hylomorphism is a solid clue to know and nets you a solid buzz on most metaphysics / aristotle tossups (at regs up), so I'm still questioning the fairness of this question (it's novel, but easier answerlines exist for the same topic).

On a similar note: While I would've preferred Kant for the judgement tossup, the judgement tossup was much more reasonable (I actually greatly enjoyed it, despite needing three lines to think after the Newton / blade of grass clue).
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by kearnm7 »

rùdrâ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:48 pm Could I see the tossups on Priam and Vulcan please? The early clues in those seemed very hard (but it's possible I should just learn more)
When one son of this man died in place of another, that son was compared to a “garden poppy, burst into red bloom,” which “bends, drooping its head to one side, weighed down by…a sudden spring shower.” The force of a thrown stone knocked out the eyeballs of another of this man’s sons, who was compared to a “tumbler…diving for oysters” after falling out of his chariot. The youngest son of this man was murdered by Polymestor, and this man pressured the herdsman (*) Agelaus to kill an unwanted son of his. Despite taking sanctuary on the altar of Zeus Herceius, this father of Gorgythion and Cebriones was killed when he slipped in the blood of his son Polites. A disguised Hermes helped this man reach the tent of an enemy warrior so that he could attempt to ransom his eldest son. For 10 points, name this father of Polydorus, Paris, and Hector, the king of Troy during the Trojan War.
ANSWER: Priam [accept Podarces] <MK>

On the day of this deity’s festival in 153 B.C., Quintus Fulvius Nobilior lost a battle to the Celtiberians, rendering it a dies ater. This deity’s sanctuary near the Forum contained a lotus tree and cypress tree older than Rome itself, and is often associated with the lapis niger. This deity sent a sign to allow his son to populate the city of Praeneste. This father of Caeculus was the Roman equivalent to the Etruscan (*) Sethlans. In book 8 of the Aeneid, Evander describes how a son of this god inhabited the Aventine Hill before Hercules killed him over the theft of some cattle. This father of Cacus was also known to the Romans as Mulciber. Scenes from the battle of Actium adorn the shield that this god crafted for Aeneas at the behest of his wife Venus. For 10 points, name this Roman god of fire, the analogue to the Greek Hephaestus.
ANSWER: Vulcan [accept Mulciber before read; do not accept or prompt on “Hephaestus” at any point] <MK>

I'm happy to debate the merits of the lead-in clues for both (especially for Vulcan), but I would encourage you to learn especially about Gorgythion, whose "poppy" simile was adapted by (all of!) Stesichorus, Sappho, Vergil, and Catullus.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by excessive dismemberment »

kearnm7 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:50 am
rùdrâ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:48 pm Could I see the tossups on Priam and Vulcan please? The early clues in those seemed very hard (but it's possible I should just learn more)
I'm happy to debate the merits of the lead-in clues for both (especially for Vulcan), but I would encourage you to learn especially about Gorgythion, whose "poppy" simile was adapted by (all of!) Stesichorus, Sappho, Vergil, and Catullus.
Seems very interesting! I maintain those seem like very hard clues in both tossups, but they aren't as hard as I initially thought after a little research on the priam tossup.

Question on the Rigveda tossup: If I had buzzed before "Gayathri Mantra" was mentioned but after the first line from it was said, and answered "Gayathri Mantra", would I have been prompted?
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I would love to just once read a questions discussion thread where the players who didn't actually write the set respond to the editors who did write a set that makes an honest effort at being good quizbowl, worth one's time and money, without a list of proclamations that the clues are BAD AND MISPLACED if they came up once before in a random NASAT tossup, or that the questions are ABORTIONS and TERRIBLE IDEAS if they don't precisely conform to your preferences. It strikes me as small minded to believe there's a magical precise way that a series of clues must be strung together at a hard as balls event, and rather than eternally perpetuating this rigid attitude to editors who worked way harder than you, a teensy bit of humility can be conveyed by simply adding the caveat that "In games I didn't personally enjoy how this question felt" rather than making it impossible to admit that there might be anything wrong about your opinion.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by A Dim-Witted Saboteur »

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:43 pm I would love to just once read a questions discussion thread where the players who didn't actually write the set respond to the editors who did write a set that makes an honest effort at being good quizbowl, worth one's time and money, without a list of proclamations that the clues are BAD AND MISPLACED if they came up once before in a random NASAT tossup, or that the questions are ABORTIONS and TERRIBLE IDEAS if they don't precisely conform to your preferences. It strikes me as small minded to believe there's a magical precise way that a series of clues must be strung together at a hard as balls event, and rather than eternally perpetuating this rigid attitude to editors who worked way harder than you, a teensy bit of humility can be conveyed by simply adding the caveat that "In games I didn't personally enjoy how this question felt" rather than making it impossible to admit that there might be anything wrong about your opinion.
Although it exaggerates the tenor of discussion in this forum by a bit, this point is well worth keeping in mind when you post in discussion forums in general, not just for hard sets. There is no platonic ideal of a quizbowl question on any topic, and the high difficulty of pre-nats opens means that there are fewer stricutres on how a tossup on any given topic "should" go. Although there are a few clues I felt were misplaced/ bonus parts I felt were too difficult, I trust the editors of this set (and most sets) to have done their due diligence and made a deliberate choice with regard to clue placement, and think that that trust should be more generally extended.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:43 pm I would love to just once read a questions discussion thread where the players who didn't actually write the set respond to the editors who did write a set that makes an honest effort at being good quizbowl, worth one's time and money, without a list of proclamations that the clues are BAD AND MISPLACED if they came up once before in a random NASAT tossup, or that the questions are ABORTIONS and TERRIBLE IDEAS if they don't precisely conform to your preferences. It strikes me as small minded to believe there's a magical precise way that a series of clues must be strung together at a hard as balls event, and rather than eternally perpetuating this rigid attitude to editors who worked way harder than you, a teensy bit of humility can be conveyed by simply adding the caveat that "In games I didn't personally enjoy how this question felt" rather than making it impossible to admit that there might be anything wrong about your opinion.
So this is getting a bit far afield, but I think Charlie's getting at something very important here. I have a lot of disagreements with this tournament's approach to quizbowl and its choices of content and this indeed had an impact on my play experience, but I don't think choices of content are categorically invalid. Ultimately, it is indeed the editor's prerogative what content to use, and for a tournament of this difficulty there's a pretty wide range for what sort of content is reasonable to use in your questions. While I personally enjoy discussing tournament philosophy, I remain fairly skeptical of how much attempting to argue for one tournament philosophy in favor of another will really accomplish. If you really dislike a particular tournament's approach, then that's fine - but it's better to just be the change you wish to see in the world and write your own tournament.

Above all, don't myopically point to quizbowl precedent and use that as the standard for judging everything. The appearance of a clue once before doesn't automatically make it bad - it's bad if a clue is over-used and affecting gameplay because it's over-used, but the clue is not categorically bad. The fact that some types of knowledge have been tested in one way before doesn't mean that you can't take a new approach (the discussion around the tossup on substance is a particularly bad example of this - honestly, that's pretty basic Aristotle, and I guess if you didn't see it in an old question that sucks for you).

For the purpose of being constructive, I think one thing we could do well would be to focus on this big question: How can the editors' ideas be molded into a better form for the purpose of improving the gameplay experience? Some relevant sub-topics might be:

- How do we improve our clue execution so that our clues are more likely to be successful clues?
- What clues are causing frustrating or suboptimal gameplay experiences, and why?
- Similarly, what aspects of question structure are causing such gameplay experiences?
- If you don't think a question's framing of a topic was good, why? How could it be done better? Suggest options!

This does not preclude other important things, such as general appreciation of the editors' efforts, or more specifically appreciating the inclusion of underasked topics, thinking that some areas may be over-represented, pointing out potentially problematic trends, etc. But it's a start.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil »

An Economic Ignoramus wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:53 pm Although there are a few clues I felt were misplaced/ bonus parts I felt were too difficult, I trust the editors of this set (and most sets) to have done their due diligence and made a deliberate choice with regard to clue placement, and think that that trust should be more generally extended.
(I'm grateful for the many small suggested clue-placement fixes Jakob has made privately. Please feel free to do the same!)

Will's post is very constructive, and it would be good to have something like it in a more public venue. (And Charlie makes a good point in general, although I agree with Jakob that this has been a fairly mild and almost entirely constructive forum so far.)
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by John Ketzkorn »

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:43 pm I would love to just once read a questions discussion thread where the players who didn't actually write the set respond to the editors...that the questions are ABORTIONS and TERRIBLE IDEAS if they don't precisely conform to your preferences.
Don't want to assume this is subtweeting me, but for what it's worth: I mean no disrespect to any of the editors here (and hopefully they don't see it that way either). The questions were NOT terrible / poorly written / abortions -- quite the opposite actually, there were many important, intellectually stimulating ideas at this tournament, but *perhaps* unsuitable for the advertised difficulty.

Specifically for substances: "Highly esoteric" equates more to being "beyond target difficulty" -- the question itself was not uninteresting or a bad idea. Brad and I (and anyone else who may have let it go dead) are not Metaphysics expert, but this tossup effectively says "You don't know Aristotle well enough for a bonus if you don't know substances." And hey, if it's meant to be "deep-canonical" then that's the approach the tournament went with; I stand by my impression that framing the tossup this way made it more difficult than it probably needed to be (at least for this difficulty). New topics always need to be "quizbowl-ified" to a degree, and even if people are familiar with substances they are likely not familiar with tossups on substances.

Hopefully we can discuss the merits / philosophy behind particular questions without assuming people are blind to the sheer amount of work it takes to write the questions in the first place. It's not an easy task gauging how well deep-canonical things are known, and I only have my personal experience to draw on. From that personal experience, this felt a lot like playing CO 2016. At the end of the day, it may just be that these "deep-canonical" questions hit on things I just don't know much about.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I guess it sort of was subtweeting you, but only because you have yet to give an actual response to why you felt it necessary to compile that list of common-link answers on places and complain about how they should have been turned into other answers. Those questions were basically all fine, and many of them were great (the question on the USA entirely about our Islamic history and culture was the best question I've heard this year). That line of thought has an implicit claim that your writing preferences about common links are so obviously superior that it's not even worth articulating an explanation why (but I dunno what forum you've been reading, because few issues have gotten more robust debates here than using common links!)

But you weren't the person who provided me the word "abortion" to quote when describing the Mayakovsky tossup, which is a nutty approach to this thread. I understand that the majority of posts here have been well-intentioned and perhaps useful for the editors, but when I see that the kneejerk reaction for some people who should know better is to trash this set on the discord, bitch all day about it at the tournament, and/or come on the forums and drag the clue ordering, it makes me sad that the wrong lessons of my era were passed on. Quizbowl flame wars back in the day existed because good quizbowl faced uphill battles against shockingly malicious outsiders, and sometimes the only way to get anything done was to trash them until they quit or figured out how to shape up. Much like Jen in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, this environment poisoned us, and because our behavior was bound up in a broader good which sometimes also entertained, it's obvious when I read these uncompromising takes that our style got absorbed without understanding why what we were doing was not healthy. I will never have sympathy for someone like Chip Beall, and when an ambiguously evil company like NAQT misfires I don't think anyone should treat them with kid gloves, but when I hear through the grapevine how awful this [fine] set by editors who have only ever played and written good quizbowl is supposed to be, it makes me disappointed that my cohort's legacy might always be tied up in having people think anger boiling right beneath the surface, ready to blow the moment a tossup on Russian literature is too hard, is a good way to approach the game, because it's the worst thing about us.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

To go on a tangent about complaining...at the risk of being overly self-serving - because I tried to commit to playing this tournament without complaining about the questions, and unfortunately failed at this task within several rounds - I think it's fine (re: not actively good) to complain if a question or tournament creates a negative or suboptimal play experience. This tournament's first draft had a lot of questions that made for such frustrating experiences, particularly in topic areas that I care about a lot. Combine this with the fact that the tournament was substantially above the (repeatedly!) advertised difficulty, and it's understandable that someone can leave with a pretty sour taste in one's mouth. This sour taste can easily become particularly sharp if one knows the people on the editing team have a lot of writing experience, and have made an earnest effort at producing a good tournament, and stated that they would be producing a carefully edited, difficulty-controlled event - as opposed to a product one expects might be inferior. And if one has a negative experience with a product, it's pretty normal human behavior to signal this to others, so that they might adjust their expectations or decisions accordingly. People may be irked if their McDonald's burger is tasteless, but they're not going on Yelp and leaving McDonald's a bad review because of this - whereas with a sit-down restaurant, it's probably a different story.

This isn't to take away from the general point that "quizbowlers could probably do with complaining less, or at least complain for better reasons" but I do think there are very understandable reasons, related to competition other aspects of the gameplay experience, that people do a lot of complaining in-tournament. It's hard to channel one's frustrations into constructive feedback on-site, and as long as we're doing it after the fact and trying to make tournaments better, we're moving in the right direction.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Is there anything more constant in quizbowl than "an open tournament billed as 'Nats minus' is going to end up being too hard"? This is not my first rodeo, and I'm kind of shocked that nobody else in this thread was able to read between the lines in the announcement and expect exactly what we ended up getting, which was a tournament that had a liberal smattering of wild questions that maybe could have used some extra polish, and won't be representative of the experience at nationals, but which nonetheless was fine for most of the audience to have fun if they freed themselves of expectations involving bean counting the distribution or how the clues stacked up against old packets. Yes, tournaments should do a better job of trying to adhere to their advertised difficulty, but it was always a much worse problem that regular difficulty events aimed at the broadest swathe of the circuit were perennially too difficult, and the four I've played this year all seemed quite easy, so I don't think this set being too hard is part of a larger trend disrupting the circuit, it just is exactly what people with many years of quizbowl experience should have expected.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Banana Stand »

Since you've honed in on my word choice in criticizing the set, Charlie, I'll just say:

a) I said the tossup was "a bit of an abortion," which it was. I clearly wasn't trying to impugn the writers of the set by criticizing this single out-of-place tossup.
b) That tossup was changed for newer sites which I'm almost sure improved people's play experience (whether this had anything to do specifically with my feedback or my diction, I can't say, but nitpicking this criticism is really stupid since it contributed to the improvement of the set!)
c) I gave due praise to a lot of this set's great ideas and tossups that I enjoyed playing! Obviously that doesn't give me license to say whatever I want in my criticism, but I didn't do a drive-by "this tossup sucked lol bye" and I was thanked by multiple people for the feedback.

I obviously care about the set and have good relationships with a lot of its writers, so lumping me in as some sort of nonconstructive asshole is pretty dumb. Also, while writers are paid nowhere near proportional to the amount of labor they put into questions of this quality, people still payed to play all of these questions. We should be grateful people write them, but it's not a gift. See you at Nationals!
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Your post had enough other decrees about what is right and wrong about question construction in questions that were absolutely in the range of acceptable that I feel OK saying what I said. Rather than declaring that the Ferrara question "didn't need to exist," or "There's zero reason for this not to be a tossup on Stanislaw Lem*," and perpetuating the norm of people sounding constantly angry over perceived imperfection, is it that hard to instead say "I don't understand what asking about Poland brings to the table, I think a tossup on Lem might have played better?" Quizbowl isn't a gift, but I've played some real bad quizbowl and these questions ain't it. If people have a difficult time not jumping to histrionics at this, or any of the other sets I've played over the last few years that were all fine, then maybe it's on quizbowl to learn how to appreciate the game more calmly and fully.

* I super duper don't get this meltdown people are having about a tossup that is factually accurate and which will reward knowledge of Stanislaw Lem regardless of what the answerline wants, and can't lie that people having such a crazy strident reaction to it is part of what has raised my hackles here.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Banana Stand »

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:13 pm Your post had enough other decrees about what is right and wrong about question construction in questions that were absolutely in the range of acceptable that I feel OK saying what I said. Rather than declaring that the Ferrara question "didn't need to exist," or "There's zero reason for this not to be a tossup on Stanislaw Lem*," and perpetuating the norm of people sounding constantly angry over perceived imperfection, is it that hard to instead say "I don't understand what asking about Poland brings to the table, I think a tossup on Lem might have played better?" Quizbowl isn't a gift, but I've played some real bad quizbowl and these questions ain't it. If people have a difficult time not jumping to histrionics at this, or any of the other sets I've played over the last few years that were all fine, then maybe it's on quizbowl to learn how to appreciate the game more calmly and fully.

* I super duper don't get this meltdown people are having about a tossup that is factually accurate and which will reward knowledge of Stanislaw Lem regardless of what the answerline wants, and can't lie that people having such a crazy strident reaction to it is part of what has raised my hackles here.
I'm sorry you're upset with the perceived imperfection of my criticism. To be honest, Charlie, I really don't need this old man shit from someone who a) has made more posts that people have found off-putting than I could ever even imagine posting on this forum and b) has oscillated in and out of the game for the past half-decade. I've consistently defended sets in the discord that people said were anathema to the game(including this one! look at the PIANO announcement!) and have enjoyed them despite whatever "massive flaws" people saw in them. I get that you came up in a time where Chip Beall was an actual threat to the game, but this is analogous to a Holocaust survivor telling people in the 60's to not whine about civil rights. I can appreciate the game being much better than it used to be while still criticizing a few tossups I found unsatisfactory. I hope that anyone reading these critiques knows that these are all my opinions, not divine proclamations, or maybe I should just write "in my opinion" before every sentence I write on here. Again, I have no idea why you're the one who's taken up the mantle of tone policing someone who's contributed more to this set's improvement than you. But I don't want to clog up this thread with petty bullshit, as I'm sure there's things more relevant to the set to be said.

Excited to play against you and Rafael and the gang in a couple weeks!
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by A Dim-Witted Saboteur »

Banana Stand wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:02 pm this is analogous to a Holocaust survivor telling people in the 60's to not whine about civil rights.
I am not convinced this analogy is necessary or correct. Charlie's point about fitting the severity of forum rhetoric to the severity of the problem should, to me, be a relatively uncontroversial one. Is having to hear a tossup on Vladimir Mayakovsky really analogous to segregation? Really?
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Maybe you'll realize one day that I'm saying I and others should be ashamed of things we've told other people in the pursuit of good quizbowl, and that it's not worth it to get in the habit of writing things you might be ashamed of, like what you just wrote, when there's no reason to do so.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Let's take Charlie up on his contention and see if we can learn anything from analyzing the use of the answerline of Polish
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) wrote:Your post had enough other decrees about what is right and wrong about question construction in questions that were absolutely in the range of acceptable that I feel OK saying what I said. Rather than declaring that the Ferrara question "didn't need to exist," or "There's zero reason for this not to be a tossup on Stanislaw Lem*," and perpetuating the norm of people sounding constantly angry over perceived imperfection, is it that hard to instead say "I don't understand what asking about Poland brings to the table, I think a tossup on Lem might have played better?
I'll preface by saying that I think there are three main motivating advantages for using common links:

1) Thematic: A common link can highlight a particular common theme across several works/topics, or within a single topic, that a more standard answerline might not be able to accomplish
2) Accessibility: A common link can allow you to ask material that would be too difficult or otherwise unfeasible to toss up on its own
3) Artistic / Creative: A common link can be on a novel answer which is cool in and of itself, and which is fun to play

I would like to expand on this theory at some point, ideally in a longer and more public post, because there are a lot of drawbacks to common links as well, including leaving a lot more room for technical execution flaws than "standard" tossups. But for now, back to Lem.

Now, this Polish tossup really isn't a common link, since it's only a "link" to one author, but the choice of answerline is clearly motivated using the same line of reasoning - the selection of the answerline Polish was done because Stanislaw Lem is a fairly challenging author who may not get a high conversion rate if asked on his own. Let's try to think of players who benefit from the selection of Polish as an answer versus those who are at a disadvantage with this answer selection (since I suspect this is a non-zero number of people):

Players who are advantaged
- People who recognize clues about Lem and do not remember his name, but do remember that he's a Polish author / wrote in Polish
- People who, at the giveaway, do not recognize Lem's name, but do recognize "Stanislaw Lem" as a plausibly Polish name and make a logical guess

Players who are disadvantaged
- People who recognize clues about Lem and remember his name, but do not know that he wrote in Polish
- People who lose a buzzer-race on a giveaway that is decided on linguistic guessing

Players who are indifferent
- People who recognize clues about Lem and know that he wrote in Polish

From here, there's no necessarily "correct" answer as to whether Lem or Polish is the better answer choice - there are a series of advantages and drawbacks. However, I'm going to argue that Lem is a better answer here for several reasons:

1) Stipulating that some people will only convert this "Polish" tossup for linguistic reasons, I would argue such people are not demonstrating substantive engagement with the material enough to "deserve" points. I'll call this the "Japan Problem" as this crops up commonly in easy parts on Japan - bonus parts which give distinctively Japanese names and which have an answer of "Japan" may be testing legitimate academic material, but there will be some number of people who pick up the easy part perfunctorily ("find your ass" as it were) without knowing anything about the material.

2) Related to (1) - selecting a tossup which allows for linguistic conversion at the giveaway is more likely to produce buzzer races at the giveaway between weaker teams. This may be an idiosyncratic view of mine, but I think dead tossups are a fairer outcome (0-0) than what is essentially a coin flip / speed check for points.

3) Let's posit someone who only knows Stanislaw Lem's name, but not his origin, and has some degree of familiarity with Lem's work. In order for such a person to conclude that Lem wrote in Polish, they must be able to do one of the following:

a) Know that Stanislaw Lem is a Polish name AND assume that he wrote in Polish because of this (as opposed to maybe another language - after all, Polish people have emigrated to many places)
b) Infer some inherent connection to Poland/Polish identity from his work and also make the same assumption

Based on some very brief conversations I've had, it seems that a casual sci-fi reader would not necessarily be able to make inference (b) in the same way that, say, a reader of Nadine Gordimer's work would be able to infer she's South African, since Gordimer wrote a lot about apartheid. Thus, I think there are going to be some non-zero number of people who will have potentially read the books being asked about in this question. I think this is a real concern, and would guess that it's more likely that the converse scenario (oh, what's that Polish sci-fi author's name...) occurs when somebody has perhaps memorized Lem as "the Polish sci-fi author of Solaris" or whatnot as opposed to actually reading Lem's books.

CONCLUSION: On balance, it seems that using an answer of Polish is likely to help to muddy the battlefield for weaker teams by producing higher conversion rates for undesirable reasons, and is also more likely to punish some small, but non-zero number of the fraction of the audience that has interacted with Lem. Thus, I would argue that tossing up Polish instead of Stanislaw Lem is a poor choice in this scenario.

There are some other possible remedies besides changing the answer to Lem, of course:
- Include clues from other, easier Polish authors. This would produce more pre-giveaway buzzes and solve the "muddying the battlefield" problem, which I think is the biggest issue with tossing up "Polish," but it would reduce thematic coherence
- Use a different common-link to ask this material

I've gone way past my previous statement that I would not engage in set discussion in public fora anymore, so I should probably shut up at this point to avoid seeming like too much of a hypocrite. However, I would encourage other folks to engage in critical thinking of this sort about how people arrive at the correct answer to a tossup based on the clues. It looks really tedious to nitpick a single question like this, but I think this sort of analysis of "why am I choosing this answerline" can be broadly applied to answer selection in many other contexts and help us optimize the play experience of folks choosing to come to hard tournaments.

EDIT/ADDENDUM: I'd like to discuss a Poland tossup from a different tournament, in a different category, that I think implements the "include clues from easier authors late in the tossup" concept well:
2015 ACF Nationals wrote:A social scientist born in this country argued that individuals' "in-groups" and "out-groups" are a source of self-esteem as part of social identity theory. A social scientist from this country posited a "pointillist" conception of time in Consuming Life. This birthplace of Henri Tajfel was the birthplace of the University of Leeds professor who claimed the title event is neither a "Jewish problem" or a "German Problem" in Modernity and the Holocaust. A sociologist from this country claimed that humanity was not in an era of postmodernity but liquid modernity. In a 1922 book, another social scientist from this country examined the building of the waga and noted that necklaces passed clockwise while bracelets moved counter-clockwise in an analysis of the kula ring. For 10 points, name this home country of the author of Argonauts of the Western Pacific, Bronislaw Malinowski.
I think this tossup does a good job of testing hard material in a pyramidal fashion, while also giving weaker teams some pre-giveaway clues from a much better known thinker to buzz on before the question goes to clues that you can guess from linguistic knowledge, even if you know nothing about Malinowski (who is, needless to day, much more famous than Henri Tajfel and Zygmunt Bauman). You could make this into a two-thinker tossup on Zygmunt Bauman and Bronislaw Malinowski and I think it would work fine as well.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Bloodwych »

adamsil wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:50 pm I specifically wrote the alkynes tossup as "these compounds" to prevent that sort of buzz, since although people call alkynes functional groups, they're not, really, and I didn't want to confuse the nomenclature. I'll see what I can do to clean up the wording, but I don't think you can really call "ethynyl" a type of compound.
Should have relied on occult organic chemistry knowledge instead of OCP knowledge I guess, oof
John Ketzkorn wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:09 pm The science seemed to overshoot the difficulty of Nats minus (even Nats in some places).
I didn't get this impression. 20s at this tournament were pretty accessible (at least in the categories I was more familiar with); also there didn't seem to be as many crazy or hard answerlines as other categories. Not a scientist though, so can't speak for most of the stuff.
human chorionic gonadotrophin? I was only pulling that at the end because of a ACF Nats bonus I had saw earlier this week.
This doesn't seem like the best example of something that overshot difficulty from this set. I'd argue it's a bit more on the real world famous side in that a lot of laypeople will have heard of it 🤔
jmarvin_ wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:57 pm Not to mention the Russian tossup (if it is the same one I'm thinking of) originally WAS just a Mayakovsky tossup, which was only changed after the first mirror for accessibility reasons.
I think this went close to the end when we played it, but I don't believe this change was an absolute need given the amount of country common links you had previously; it's alright to have some harder stuff like that.

I am not in the loop as much anymore, but nothing really seemed egregious about this set.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by csheep »

Could I see the TU on Alyosha from Karamazov? I negged very early in with Stoner on the hero/preface clue which I thought was a reasonable thing to answer.

Also I think I generally enjoyed the prevalence of countries as answerlines.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil »

csheep wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:03 pm Could I see the TU on Alyosha from Karamazov? I negged very early in with Stoner on the hero/preface clue which I thought was a reasonable thing to answer.
Packet 10 wrote:In an authorial preface, this character is called a “hero” despite being “a figure of an indefinite, indeterminate sort” and an “odd man.” This character is said to be the only person who’d safely be fed and sheltered if put in a new city of a million people with just a penny. His thoughts drift to “one little onion” upon hearing Paissy read the Wedding of Cana aloud. After a eulogy called the “Speech at the Stone,” a 14-year-old socialist named Kolya cheers “Hurrah for” this man, ending the novel he appears in. He’s not from Ursula Le Guin’s Omelas, but he rejects the idea of securing (*) utopia by torturing even one child in a chapter titled “Rebellion.” He gets his finger bitten after saving a boy from being pelted with stones. A monastic novitiate is abandoned by—for 10 points—what young man who listens to the tale of the Grand Inquisitor from his older brother Ivan [ee-VAHN] in a novel by Fyodor Dostoevsky?

ANSWER: Alyosha Karamazov [or Alexei Karamazov; accept A. Karamazov; prompt on Karamazov] <MJ>
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Amizda Calyx »

Bloodwych wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:14 pm
John Ketzkorn wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:09 pm The science seemed to overshoot the difficulty of Nats minus (even Nats in some places).
I didn't get this impression. 20s at this tournament were pretty accessible (at least in the categories I was more familiar with); also there didn't seem to be as many crazy or hard answerlines as other categories. Not a scientist though, so can't speak for most of the stuff.
I thought the bio bonuses were actually quite accessible. I really liked the breathing/alveoli/acinar and ??/depolarization/cyclin B bonuses, although we didn't get to answer the first and on the second I managed to blank on the term "depolarization" and panickedly offered to draw and label the ion movements within an action potential instead...
Bloodwych wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:14 pm
human chorionic gonadotrophin? I was only pulling that at the end because of a ACF Nats bonus I had saw earlier this week.
This doesn't seem like the best example of something that overshot difficulty from this set. I'd argue it's a bit more on the real world famous side in that a lot of laypeople will have heard of it 🤔
Yeah, Emmett said he would have gotten this based on high school health class knowledge. And I believe my first exposure to hCG outside of the womb was in middle school after having my interest piqued by that "most sophisticated piece of technology you'll ever pee on" pregnancy test ad.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by Amizda Calyx »

I liked this tournament, or at least my categor[ies] (in general). Maybe this is colored by my having heard commentary about how hard/unfair it was before playing, but it certainly wasn't the travesty I was expecting. Power did seem stingy though (on the other hand, sucrose gradient centrifugation is pretty standard and maybe shouldn't be in power). Oh and I really liked 3D printing coming up!

For the negative index of refraction, I negged with super-resolution on the Pendry clue, which seemed to be talking about a property of a lens proposed by him (without actually saying superlens), and I think earlier clues mentioned evanescent waves...I don't Know Things in this field but since "property" can apply to several aspects of the metamaterials used I'd suggest at least saying "superlens".

I'll echo the comments on the balance tossup, which still had the schwannoma clue, and the rather confusing pronoun of "stage" for the blastula tossup (which I negged with gastrulation at Spemann...I don't remember the specific clues but I definitely associate the organizer with at least the late gastrulation stage).
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by adamsil »

Amizda Calyx wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:24 pm I liked this tournament, or at least my categor[ies] (in general). Maybe this is colored by my having heard commentary about how hard/unfair it was before playing, but it certainly wasn't the travesty I was expecting. Power did seem stingy though (on the other hand, sucrose gradient centrifugation is pretty standard and maybe shouldn't be in power). Oh and I really liked 3D printing coming up!

For the negative index of refraction, I negged with super-resolution on the Pendry clue, which seemed to be talking about a property of a lens proposed by him (without actually saying superlens), and I think earlier clues mentioned evanescent waves...I don't Know Things in this field but since "property" can apply to several aspects of the metamaterials used I'd suggest at least saying "superlens".

I'll echo the comments on the balance tossup, which still had the schwannoma clue, and the rather confusing pronoun of "stage" for the blastula tossup (which I negged with gastrulation at Spemann...I don't remember the specific clues but I definitely associate the organizer with at least the late gastrulation stage).
Glad you enjoyed the science generally! That's a tricky thing about super-res--obviously, the referents were aimed toward the material, not the device, but on that clue it's hard to distinguish. (super-res is of course normally used to refer a different sort of thing, but I can see where you get lost at game speed trying to read my mind.)

I'm chagrined that so many people are negging the vestibular schwannoma clue with acoustic neuromas (which seem to be an uncommon name for the same thing, based on my searching)--is this a codified thing that is taught differently in medical school? I apologize that my attempt to shore up those negs ("despite a common misnomer") didn't appear to work for later mirrors. (This is, unfortunately, not a tossup that you can easily start with "It's not hearing, but..."!).

As I understand it, the Spemann organizer is still around during gastrulation, but it forms during the blastula--and the latter half of the sentence (likely after you buzzed, so mea culpa on pyramidality vs. sentence structure) did a better job ruling it out by explicitly calling out the animal cap/vegetal layer. I do think "stage" is the proper referent for this, though. To head off the obvious alternative, I preferred it to awkward wording like "the first zygotic transcription initiates in this _structure_".
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by csheep »

vinteuil wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:53 pm
csheep wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:03 pm Could I see the TU on Alyosha from Karamazov? I negged very early in with Stoner on the hero/preface clue which I thought was a reasonable thing to answer.
Packet 10 wrote:In an authorial preface, this character is called a “hero” despite being “a figure of an indefinite, indeterminate sort” and an “odd man.” This character is said to be the only person who’d safely be fed and sheltered if put in a new city of a million people with just a penny. His thoughts drift to “one little onion” upon hearing Paissy read the Wedding of Cana aloud. After a eulogy called the “Speech at the Stone,” a 14-year-old socialist named Kolya cheers “Hurrah for” this man, ending the novel he appears in. He’s not from Ursula Le Guin’s Omelas, but he rejects the idea of securing (*) utopia by torturing even one child in a chapter titled “Rebellion.” He gets his finger bitten after saving a boy from being pelted with stones. A monastic novitiate is abandoned by—for 10 points—what young man who listens to the tale of the Grand Inquisitor from his older brother Ivan [ee-VAHN] in a novel by Fyodor Dostoevsky?

ANSWER: Alyosha Karamazov [or Alexei Karamazov; accept A. Karamazov; prompt on Karamazov] <MJ>
Thanks; I could well be the only person to be peeved about it, but while "authorial preface" does eliminate Stoner as a plausible answer, I do feel bad about what I still think was a "good" buzz (or at least, as good as a wrong answer could be). For the bulk of the English speaking readership, Stoner was catapulted to fame via the NYRB publication, whose preface/introduction discussed at length the argument for Stoner as a "hero," as labeled by the author in a later interview. While it is not an "authorial preface" by definition, the discussion came from the author, and also featured prominently in the preface in the edition that 90%+ of the audience read. Said appellation also features prominently in secondary material about the work - for example here and here, among many others.
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil »

csheep wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:43 pm For the bulk of the English speaking readership, Stoner was catapulted to fame via the NYRB publication, whose preface/introduction discussed at length the argument for Stoner as a "hero," as labeled by the author in a later interview.
I don't want to sound too dismissive here, but have I correctly construed your argument as "people are likely to buzz solely on the information that a preface describes a novel's protagonist as its 'hero'"?
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Re: 2019 PIANO/MO Specific Question Discussion

Post by csheep »

vinteuil wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:18 pm
csheep wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:43 pm For the bulk of the English speaking readership, Stoner was catapulted to fame via the NYRB publication, whose preface/introduction discussed at length the argument for Stoner as a "hero," as labeled by the author in a later interview.
I don't want to sound too dismissive here, but have I correctly construed your argument as "people are likely to buzz solely on the information that a preface describes a novel's protagonist as its 'hero'"?
I, unwisely, did. So I guess, yeah. I don't think it's too common for a significant portion of criticism on a work to focus on this question, to the extent that the author comments at length on the debate? I could just be wrong but not many prominent examples spring to mind.

If that clue was not to meant to buzzed on/is widely applicable, why was it included, to tie into the recent thread on the purpose of a lead-in.
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