MARCATo (Summer 2020)

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MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

I am pleased to announce MARCATo (Musical Arts Remote Cooperation Audio Tournament) an online music doubles tournament written by myself and Wonyoung Jang, to be played in late July or early August of this year. It will be hosted by Qblitz, and Noah Prince is modifying their existing platform to work for audio questions.

The basic format of the tournament is as follows: Rounds are spread over multiple days, one round per day. On each game day, each two-person team is paired with an opposing team. Each player is sent a link to the 20 tossups for that round. Each tossup is constructed as it would be in Imaginary Landscape: one minute of (usually) six clips, arranged in pyramidal order. The playing mechanics are much as they are on Qblitz and Buzzword: the question is "read" to each player alone, they buzz, type in an answer, and the computer records where they buzzed and what answer they gave. The earliest buzz from each team counts as that team's buzz on the question. If both teams give the correct answer, only the earlier correct buzz earns points. Tossups are worth 10, and negs are worth -5. The higher-scoring team in each head-to-head is the wins that game.

The precise number of rounds is up in the air (although there will be a minimum of 8). This is contingent upon how much interest there is. If there is sufficient interest, the hope is to have a round robin within brackets, and then some sort of playoffs/finals situation. (If there is really a lot of interest, we are open to forming separate divisions.) The entry fee per player will be determined once we know how many rounds we are producing, but will likely be in the neighborhood of $10-15, half of which will be donated to charity.

The distribution (which mixes popular and classical genres) lends itself to collaboration between "trash" and "academic" players. Average difficulty of answerlines will be lower than in most prior audio tournaments. The tentative distribution is as follows:

1 21st century pop music
1 1950-2000 pop music
1 rap, R&B, hip hop
1 post-1960 rock
1 blues, soul, folk, country, pre-1960 rock
5 misc / mixed / other popular music
1.5 jazz / Great American Songbook
1 musicals
1 film / TV / video games / misc. multimedia
1 pre-1750 classical
1 1750-1830 classical
1 1830-1914 classical
1 1914-present classical
2.5 misc. classical

For now, please demonstrate your interest by filling out this form. (This is not binding.) Sometime in early June, I'll generate the field size and number of rounds based on those numbers, and registration will open.
John Lawrence
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Cheynem »

To clarify the rules, if Player X negs and Player Y gets the question on the next clue immediately after, that counts as a neg for Team XY, right? (I suppose this would be entirely true in a real life scenario)
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Cheynem wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 1:00 am To clarify the rules, if Player X negs and Player Y gets the question on the next clue immediately after, that counts as a neg for Team XY, right? (I suppose this would be entirely true in a real life scenario)
Correct. Likewise, if Player X says the correct answer and Player Y negs on the next clue, only the correct answer counts for Team XY, and the neg is ignored. The first buzz made by either player on a team is that team's only buzz.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by adosreme »

In a similar vein, let's say player X (on team XY) negs but player A on the other team gets it correct on the clue before. Does X still get charged with a neg?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

adosreme wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 3:22 am In a similar vein, let's say player X (on team XY) negs but player A on the other team gets it correct on the clue before. Does X still get charged with a neg?
Nope. As in an in-person game, Player A got the tossup before Player X had the chance to neg.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

If you intend to play this tournament and haven't yet filled out the poll, please do so in the next few days, as I'm hoping to announce the dates, format, etc. this weekend.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Thanks to all of you that voted in the poll. Based on the results, I am announcing that this tournament is going to begin on Monday, August 3rd, with rounds scheduled once a day until the tournament's conclusion, except for a break on the 8th so as not to conflict with CAMP. (Once a day was the preferred option of most voters.)

Tournament fees are $15 per person, with half of the proceeds going to charity. Wonyoung and I will be writing 12 packets in total. The first will be used for seeding, which will be determined by comparing everyone's stats at once. All subsequent rounds will be head-to-head matchups between teams. Providing we get the right field size, we're hoping to use a format that will allow all teams to play 11 of those packets (including the seeding round).

We're capping the field at 36 teams. However, because only certain field sizes are workable, we reserve the right to waitlist teams as needed along the way, until certain numbers have been met (e.g. if we hit 32, we're not going to accept any more registrations until we hit exactly 36).

Your team should e-mail me or PM me (on the forums) to register. Please write "MARCATo Registration" in the subject line. You may include a team name. I will update the list of registered teams here. An editable sheet to post free agency / seek teammates is here.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Currently, 20 teams have registered. Once 24 teams have registered (which I expect to happen), I’m going waitlist teams until/unless we reach 30, then again until/unless we reach 32, then again until/unless we reach 36, at which point the field will close.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

36 teams have registered. The field is now closed, although you are welcome to contact me to join the waitlist.

I am currently working on a delayed mirror (starting on August 17th) that was originally intended for people outside the quizbowl community. Despite that characterization, I am willing to add quizbowler teams to it, if it will help to ensure a playable field size, and because there are still a lot of people who filled out the original poll who have not yet registered. So, you may ask to join that mirror rather than being on the waitlist for the main iteration.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

I've received enough interest that I can now confirm that the second mirror (starting August 17th) is officially happening. The field is open, and any teams may e-mail me or PM me (on the forums) to register. Please write "MARCATo Registration" in the subject line.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Captain Sinico »

There's at least one interesting scoring scenario that arises in this sort of event. Let's say AB is playing XY. On a given tossup, A takes the first buzz and gets it wrong. B being locked out by A's neg, we don't care what B does – pretend B didn't buzz if you like. Later on, X also buzzes gets it wrong. Later still, Y buzzes gets it right.

Obviously this has to be a neg for A and therefore scored AB -5. How does this get scored for XY?

Here's how I analyze this situation. It seems like, one the one hand, XY "had a chance" with X's buzz and got it wrong, so X should get the penalty for a second wrong answer, XY ±0. On the other hand, it seems certain that the better simulation of a real game, especially one without powers, is to say X's buzz wouldn't happen if A's neg were known, so XY should get 10 for Y's correct buzz, XY +10. I think the second option this is the correct thing to happen in this case, with the key argument being that the point is to provide the best simulation of a real game, which the second option does. There are shifts in the optimum strategy given either choice, but I think they're lesser for the second option.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Cheynem »

I think Mike is correct--to be clear, for rule codifying purposes, are you saying when Team AB negs, you take Team XY as having 10 points if either player, no matter when, has a correct response. That is, as in the situation you mentioned, if AB negged, X guesses wrong, and Y gets it right at the end, OR if AB negged, X guesses correctly afterwards, and Y buzzes in at the end and is wrong, in both cases, XY gets 10 points?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Captain Sinico »

That's what I had in mind, certainly. In fact, I think anything other than XY +10 for A -5, then X right, then Y wrong would be strongly objected to and widely disliked. I take that as fixed and basically independent of what happens for the scenario I brought up (A -5, then X wrong, then Y right).
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

It appears that there are two proposals on the table for how to handle bouncebacks after negs:

(1) After Team A negs, Team B gets the tossup only if their team's first buzz is correct
(2) After Team A negs, Team B gets the tossup if either player's answer is correct

Some examples:

Imagine the tossup answer is The Beatles. Team A negs 15 seconds in, Player X on Team B buzzes 30 seconds in and says "The Beatles," and Player Y buzzes 45 seconds in and says "The Rolling Stones." According to both rules, Team B gets the tossup and Player X is credited with the correct buzz.

Instead, imagine the tossup answer is Beethoven. Team A negs 15 seconds in, Player X on Team B buzzes 30 seconds in and says "Mozart," and Player Y buzzes 45 seconds in and says "Beethoven." If we adopt rule (1), the tossup goes dead; if we adopt rule (2), Team B wins the tossup and Player Y is credited with the correct buzz.

I've set up a poll. Players of either mirror may participate to let me know which rule they prefer. The poll closes on midnight Eastern time, on Friday, July 24th. Whichever option the majority prefers will be the rule.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Dominator »

For those of you competing in MARCATo, please take some time this week to try the interface out by playing 5 sample questions here. Questions/concerns can be sent to me at [email protected].
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Thanks to all of you that voted in the poll that I posted earlier in the week. We are going with the option that Mike Sorice originally proposed: After Team A negs, Team B gets the tossup if either player's answer is correct.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Cheynem »

To clarify--once the questions reach the end, do you no longer need to push the "buzz" button?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by vcpavao »

Rounds are spread over multiple days, one round per day.
Is there a tentative schedule for games? Or are we expected to have daily laptop access until the tournament is complete?

EDIT: I missed your post in the middle of the thread which answers my question.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Cheynem »

Looking at the scores from round one, perhaps I missed this in the rules, but it seems like guessing after the question has finished results in a neg five (in the rare event that you are the first person of the four to buzz in even though the question has gone to the end).

In fact, in one simulated matchup, the question went to the very end. My teammate must have submitted his response of "nothing" first, which resulted in us getting a neg five because that went in a fraction of a second before the other team's wildly wrong guess. This seems kind of unsatisfactory.

Would I assume that in a real game, the scorers would not count these as negs?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

I just sent an e-mail to all the players about this. If you didn't receive this, please let me know. Long story short: Noah is going to fix this; any negs that should be zeros will be transformed into zeros; if this changes the results of matches, such that seeding should be different than it currently is, teams will be reseeded; if you have already played today's questions, this is not a problem, as we'll simply take your recorded buzzes and measure them against the opponent you should rightly have been assigned, in the correct seeding. Thanks to everyone for their patience.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by cwasims »

Another clarification: it seems right now that a team's first buzz if both players answer at the end of the question is determined by how quickly they type and submit their answer. This seems fairly unideal to me since you can't coordinate between your teammate online and usually one player will be more knowledgeable about a topic but potentially a slower/more cautious typist than the other. Might I suggest that if one player gets it right at the end then that player's answer is counted (regardless of whether it was submitted earlier) and the incorrect player's answer discarded? This seems to much better approximate real-life play than the current system.
(EDIT: I realize there may be some scoring issues that are leading to the appearance of this problem, so I could be off-base here.)
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Louis XIV and Twenty Million Henchmen »

Is there a list of clips for past questions, like there sometimes is for IL? I’d love to see what some of those early clips were!
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Louis XIV and Twenty Million Henchmen wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:28 pm Is there a list of clips for past questions, like there sometimes is for IL? I’d love to see what some of those early clips were!
This reminds me that I never got around to releasing those for IL4...Someone should bug me about that later this month.

I'd be willing to do that for this tournament once all mirrors have concluded. In the meantime, if you're burning to know what a particular clip is (in my portion of the set), you may message me.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

cwasims wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:25 pm Another clarification: it seems right now that a team's first buzz if both players answer at the end of the question is determined by how quickly they type and submit their answer. This seems fairly unideal to me since you can't coordinate between your teammate online and usually one player will be more knowledgeable about a topic but potentially a slower/more cautious typist than the other. Might I suggest that if one player gets it right at the end then that player's answer is counted (regardless of whether it was submitted earlier) and the incorrect player's answer discarded? This seems to much better approximate real-life play than the current system.
(EDIT: I realize there may be some scoring issues that are leading to the appearance of this problem, so I could be off-base here.)
Noah may correct me, but I think this is something we're not going to be able to adjust for this tournament. You are, of course, free to advise your teammate to deliberately wait a few seconds after typing before hitting submit, when guessing on answers outside of their core categories.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by 5 Fingaz to the Male Gaze »

ThisIsMyUsername wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:35 am I'd be willing to do that for this tournament once all mirrors have concluded. In the meantime, if you're burning to know what a particular clip is (in my portion of the set), you may message me.
Chiming in to say that my DMs are also open if you want to ask about a clip from the popular music half of the set. I was also actually thinking about posting a public playlist of all the songs that I used for the popular music after the set is clear for everyone, if there's interest in that.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by vcpavao »

Are we able to see how we did against our opponent the previous day before moving on to play the next day's game?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

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vcpavao wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 am Are we able to see how we did against our opponent the previous day before moving on to play the next day's game?
Yes.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Cheynem »

How do we check that? Or is that just not added yet?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

There are still spots available for the second mirror of MARCATo, which starts on August 17th. We're accepting registrations through this Sunday (August 9th). You may e-mail or PM me to register a team. Please add yourself to the free agent spreadsheet, if you're seeking teammates.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Cheynem wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:02 pm How do we check that? Or is that just not added yet?
Noah sent everyone their match results (whether they won or lost and what the score was) this morning. Stats from individual matches (so you can look at buzzpoints) should be up soon, if they aren't already.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by weebyjeebys »

This has been a lot of fun, but I would like to mention that I would consider it on the harder end of things. I can't comment too much on classical, but as a popular music player, a few of the answerlines I'd consider definitely above the "college" level, with some of my fellow competitors suggesting that the pop would be on the 3.0-3.5 end of things if there was a trash equivalent to the academic difficulty scale.

I don't want the writers and everyone involved in organizing to take this comment as a demerit against the set, I'm having a lot of fun so far, I just wanted to make future mirror players aware of things from my perspective. Looking forward to the rest of the games!
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Emperor Pupienus »

Would it be possible to have a full tournament schedule posted or emailed out to the teams? I know we're getting QBlitz emails with our daily matches, but it'd be nice to be able to look at the overall schedule. Just who plays who in which pool on which day is fine, if seeds for the pools are provided. It doesn't need to be filled out with teams.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Cheynem »

The original reason why there was no round this Saturday, the 8th, is because of CAMP, which now got moved to the 15th. Since there IS a round scheduled for the 15th, would it be possible to just move everything up one day?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Cheynem wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:44 am The original reason why there was no round this Saturday, the 8th, is because of CAMP, which now got moved to the 15th. Since there IS a round scheduled for the 15th, would it be possible to just move everything up one day?
I just sent an e-mail to all the players, proposing this switch.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

A couple of people have requested that we keep August 8th as a rest day, and Jade has assured me that CAMP is short enough that there’s no reason to view MARCATo's ending on August 15th as some kind of scheduling conflict. So, we will take our originally scheduled break tomorrow, and resume play on Sunday the 9th.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Right now, we have 15 confirmed registrations for the August 17th mirror. (The current field may be seen here) For an ideal tournament structure, we would like 16 or 20 teams. If one more pair signs up, we will accept that registration, and temporarily close the field. After that, teams may ask to join the waitlist. They will be admitted to the field if we hit 20 teams.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Ye Unfeeling Romeo »

I would like to play this tournament. If anyone is interested in playing with me, please contact me and we'll sign up for the waitlist.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Cheynem »

This was an immensely enjoyable tournament. Is there a private discussion forum?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Congratulations to The Bookbinders (Albert Bellefeuille and Ian Plansker) who beat No Deep Love Webern (William Golden and Ethan Strombeck) in the final, thus winning the tournament!

Thanks to all of the teams who played this event, and stuck with us through all of the birth pains of the new technology and format. We hope you had a lot of fun. I may indeed set up a private discussion forum tomorrow.

By the way, Noah and I are having trouble contacting one of the teams playing the tournament (a team of non-quizbowlers), and we may need to replace them last-minute. If anyone is willing to be on standby as a replacement team, please contact me immediately.
John Lawrence
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Antrobus63 »

Yes, thanks for running a challenging, fun tournament. Hope you will do it again in the not-too-distant future. Checked some match results for those Bookbinder guys... wow.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Cheynem »

To expand my feelings on this tournament:

If the format for the tournament made it seem kind of impersonal or confounding, it is not. I actually found it extremely enjoyable to play, although more like an activity like Learned League than a normal quizbowl tournament. It was nice having a tournament that matched my schedule (I could play it in the morning or evening) and did not particularly require a great Internet connection to work (providing it didn't drop during a game, of course). You didn't need to worry about communicating with a partner or a moderator.

The format is also kind of addictively oddball. You can tell after each round how many questions you got right and where you answered them. You can even talk to your partner afterwards and figure out if you negged your partner out of anything or vice versa. But you do not know until the end results if even an excellent game or a weak game is enough to win--you may have had some of your best buzzes all tournament, but unfortunately the team you are up against did too. You may have had a lot of weak buzzes at the giveaway...but it turned out your opponents couldn't even convert the questions. It's really interesting the next day reading the game results--regretting sitting on a question your opponents got a fraction of a second earlier, or reveling that you apparently figured a question out a quick second before your opponents. My team's last round of the tournament featured a "comeback" from being down 55-0 earlier that was really neat to see play out in simulated time.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

I'm trying to replace one team in the current field. If anyone is willing to come in last-minute and play the rest of the tournament (you'll have one loss on your record), please let me know and I'll add you to the field right away. Because you will have missed have two rounds, I'll let you play for the reduced fee of $12.50.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

The spot has been filled.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

The second mirror is still ongoing. But a private discussion forum is now up for those who played the first mirror.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

The second mirror of MARCATo has concluded. Congratulations to our winners, Andy Kravis and Bill Patschak, who defeated David Dennis and Eric Simpson in a well-fought final!
John Lawrence
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by person361 »

Thanks to John and Wonyoung for writing the set! The set was so much fun to play, even the questions that I had no chance on. Both writers clearly put a lot of work into creating this new set. Also, thanks to Noah Prince, John, and Wonyoung for working basically 4 weeks straight on running the set. I really enjoyed the format. The fact that I could hear as much of a TU as I wanted (compared to a traditional game where it would have gotten cut off by someone else buzzing) kept me more engaged, and I really hope this format appears again.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Lighthouse Expert Elinor DeWire »

Thank you to the organizers for making this tournament a success - especially considering how the answers were due by midnight and we got our results emailed to us by 9 am!

I have two suggestions for a tournament like this in the future. Firstly,
The distribution (which mixes popular and classical genres) lends itself to collaboration between "trash" and "academic" players
I didn't think this was significant -- I'm academic and my partner is trash so we didn't really need to collaborate much. I think it would be a lot more interesting if an all-areas music tournament could be either run with bonuses or even, allow players to consult on tossups. This would work in a online setting where I would call my partner while we both listen to the tossups. This is unlike real quizbowl but could be an interesting experiment.

Secondly, if the technology allows for it, I think it would be really interesting to have all pairwise matches simulated. Every day, we'd basically have a full tournament of stats and could have been ranked 1-20. Then, we would have 12 days of aggregate ranks (possibly with a points system). Here we could see day by day progress. Especially for my team, it would have showcased both a 18-1 day and a 3-16 day.

This tournament was wonderful as is and did a great job at simulating the QB experience, but I think alternative experiences can be explored in new platforms.
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by Pilgrim »

Are you intending to publicly release this set in some format?
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Re: MARCATo (Summer 2020)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername »

Pilgrim wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:48 pm Are you intending to publicly release this set in some format?
At this time, we don't foresee publicly releasing the set.
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