2022 HSNCT discussion

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2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

This is your question-specific discussion thread for the 2022 NAQT HSNCT.

Standard disclaimers:

If you are planning to play a mirror of the 2022 HSNCT set, please do not read further posts in this thread. (There is one mirror currently planned, hosted by Toronto in August; it's possible we may add other mirrors to our schedule.)

I will be traveling for the next two weeks, including a flight tonight (Tuesday evening). Please allow up to 24 hours for responses to queries in this thread.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Valefor »

For those who were not at the finals to hear it, I want to sincerely thank my co-editors on this set, Ben Miller and Billy Busse. They put in an enormous--and that's underselling it--amount of work on 1,548 questions over the past several months.

I want to thank Jonah Greenthal, Jeff Hoppes, Erik Nelson, Jonathen Settle, Seth Teitler, Danny Vopava, Andrew Wang, and Matt Weiner for their work on individual packet read-throughs in the last week before the tournament.

And last, but certainly not least, I want to thank the--no joke--**93** writers whose questions appeared in the set, and the 30 subject editors who worked on those questions before the set editors saw them.

Thank you ALL for helping make the HSNCT what it was.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by NotAiden »

May I please see the Starbucks unionization tu from one of the final rounds?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by nicole. »

the pog question was pretty pog and i’m very curious the conversion rate on it
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Re: 2022 HSNCT staff paean

Post by the return of AHAN »

I want to take this opportunity to thank all of the staff for giving up their weekend to help make this tournament a very well-run event. I especially want to highlight the people who get tabbed to moderate consolation matches. As far as I could see, those people were excellent at running these matches, too, which is a tremendous benefit to attending nats. The vast majority of teams don't get to play in the playoffs, but when the consolation matches continue to be staffed by top-shelf talent*, it lets those players know that these matches are still valued, and contributes to an overall feeling that this tournament is worth the time, money, and effort, irrespective of how your team fares. So, while it's easy to laud the Jason Thompsons and Rob Carsons of the world, the fall-off to those running consolations was negligible this year, IMO.

* - specific shout-out to Charlie Steinhice and Adam Silverman, who ran the match I saw between Barrington B and Carmel B/C. :-)
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by the return of AHAN »

Now a post about questions;
I'd love to know the protest/conversion rate on part 3 of the bonus on NFTs in round 14. I heard that the most common response was "screenshot" which utterly makes sense as the first clue given definitely steered most people in that direction. The 2nd clue should've probably come first?
Moreover, moderator reaction was pretty broad from what we've heard, ranging from outright rejecting "screenshot" to prompting.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Halinaxus »

Could I please see the tossups on centrifuging and Oscar Wao? I confused centrifuging with diffusion on the clue about uranium enrichment, and my AP Lit teacher is curious about what was clued for Oscar Wao.

Also, there was a chem bonus about thermodynamics, the third part of which asked for the term used to describe a process with negative Gibbs Free Energy. My team said "thermodynamically favorable" but were declared wrong; the given answer was "spontaneous." My AP Chem teacher (and former quiz bowl coach) specifically told our class that "spontaneous" was an outdated term and that we should use "thermodynamically favorable." I asked him again just now and he said he thinks we should have been ruled correct. It's possible I'm misremembering the bonus, but if I'm remembering correctly should we have protested this?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

2022 HSNCT first finals packet wrote:An organizer for this cause, Michael Vestigo, wore his fursuit to a May 2022 rally for it. In April 2022 flyers of fake tweets featuring a "We Are One" account were posted to oppose this cause. The "Memphis Seven" were (*) fired for supporting this cause that began with a December 2021 "yes" vote in Buffalo. Howard Schultz promised raises to workers who did not support—for 10 points—what labor cause involving a coffee chain?

answer: unionizing Starbucks (accept all answers indicating the drive to unionize workers or form(ing) (or start(ing)) a union at Starbucks; prompt on "union(ize)" or "union(izing)" by asking "At what business?")
2022 HSNCT round 16 wrote:This three-letter word names an amateur chess tournament whose first iteration was won by League of Legends streamer Voyboy. A brand of juice with this name lent it to a game that involved dropping "slammers" on cardboard disks that was a 90s fad. The surprised face of (*) Ryan "Gootecks" Gutierrez was removed and replaced by a Komodo dragon in a Twitch emote named after—for 10 points—what three-letter word followed by "champ"?

answer: pog (or POGs; accept PogChamp or Pogchamps after "face"; prompt on "pogger(s)")
2022 HSNCT round 14 wrote:C. NFT owners are commonly mocked by people "taking ownership" of their NFTs by performing this simple action. A lambasted viral tweet compared the "mentality" of people who do this to people who make Salt Bae's meals at home.

answer: right-clicking (and saving) (accept right-clickers or right-clicker mentality; prompt on "save (a copy)" or "saving (a copy)"; do not accept or prompt on "screenshot(ting)")
(this indeed caused a substantial number of protests)
2022 HSNCT round 10 wrote:A coefficient in this technique equals mass divided by the viscous resistance calculated from Stokes' law. The "analytical" form of this technique can measure the sedimentation velocity of cells, while its "gas" type is used to (*) enrich uranium. When performing this technique on blood, plasma floats to the top and erythrocytes settle to the bottom. For 10 points—what technique separates particles by spinning them quickly?

answer: centrifugation (accept answers that refer to using a centrifuge; accept analytical centrifugation or analytical ultracentrifugation or gas centrifugation)
2022 HSNCT round 12 wrote:This novel opens by noting that its protagonist wasn't a "home-run hitter" or a "playboy with a million hots on his jock." In this novel, a mongoose guides Beli out of a sugarcane field, where she was attacked by thugs under Rafael Trujillo. A (*) fuku curse affects the main family of this novel, which is narrated by Yunior. For 10 points—name this novel by the Dominican-born author Junot Diaz.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by nolanjunes »

I am going to preface this message with a huge thanks to all of the staff and competitors from HSNCT this year. We, the Carmel team, had a wonderful time coming to Atlanta to compete against the best competition in the world that just wouldn't have been possible without the many readers, scorekeepers, and staffers from and associated with NAQT.

That being said, we do feel there was a huge injustice done to Carmel A in the playoffs that we feel no single individual or group was inherently responsible for, but that could've been prevented. In the second half of the Round 24 playoff match between Carmel A and Detroit Catholic Central A, our fine arts player Austin Guo's buzzer came unplugged, and when he attempted to buzz on a Visual Fine Arts tossup, the unplugged buzzer failed, and DCC A buzzed in with a correct answer mere seconds after Austin's attempt to buzz.

I understand that stuff happens. We are very grateful for the rules letting us play a replacement tossup/bonus cycle, and DCC A proved the better team by powering the replacement and converting the bonus to win 350-345. (Stats can be found here if interested: https://www.naqt.com/stats/tournament/g ... id=1149074). However, it came to our attention in the ensuing buzzer chaos that the room moderators were already aware of the loose connection of Austin's buzzer from rounds before. How this problem was not addressed by Round 24 in the playoffs is heartbreaking for us, and we hope that there will be better SOP for checking buzzers and what to do when they aren't working properly so this doesn't happen to other teams in the future.

Again, we'd like to emphasis that this situation was, quite literally, a Murphy's Law worst-worst case scenario that we feel could be prevented in the future with planned oversight on buzzer systems. Thanks to NAQT for hosting the largest quiz bowl tournament year after year; we hope to be back to attend future iterations of the best high school tournament in the nation.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

Thanks for letting us know, Nolan. We're sorry to hear that a technical problem of that kind occurred at an important point in a playoff game; I'll discuss this issue with our logistics team and we'll consider what might reduce the chances of this happening at future national championship events.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Valefor »

Important Bird Area wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 12:25 pm
2022 HSNCT round 14 wrote:C. NFT owners are commonly mocked by people "taking ownership" of their NFTs by performing this simple action. A lambasted viral tweet compared the "mentality" of people who do this to people who make Salt Bae's meals at home.

answer: right-clicking (and saving) (accept right-clickers or right-clicker mentality; prompt on "save (a copy)" or "saving (a copy)"; do not accept or prompt on "screenshot(ting)")
(this indeed caused a substantial number of protests)
This one I will take full responsibility for. In hindsight, I should have edited this such that either (a) screenshotting was acceptable, or (b) dropped "screenshotting" in the question text or otherwise made it clear it was something else. I sincerely apologize to any teams who were frustrated by this bonus part.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by meebles127 »

Could I see the TU on sweat?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by touchpack »

As Jason has told you repeatedly, I was the main set editor responsible for the science. As usual, I had a great time putting this set of questions together and I hope everyone enjoyed playing them. I'd like to thank the many writers--too many to list here--who contributed science questions to the set, but I would especially like to thank Geoffrey Chen and Eric Yin, who both wrote dozens of high-quality science questions, making my job easier and the set better.

One other thing I would like to note is that recently, I've been trying to remove gendered pronouns from science questions in cases where they are unnecessary. Of course, I extended that to this set, removing gendered pronouns from a few of the computational math questions, but there was one question that I overlooked during editing, only noticing when I was reading it out loud to teams. The bonus part on the law of conservation of angular momentum references an "ice skater pulling her arms into her body to spin faster." The implicit gender-normative statement there is, in my opinion, highly inappropriate, and I profusely apologize if anyone was bothered by it. I would encourage other science writers/editors (and non-science writers/editors too!) to be cognizant of this issue and to avoid using gendered pronouns unnecessarily.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT staff paean

Post by Valefor »

the return of AHAN wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:23 am I want to take this opportunity to thank all of the staff for giving up their weekend to help make this tournament a very well-run event. I especially want to highlight the people who get tabbed to moderate consolation matches. As far as I could see, those people were excellent at running these matches, too, which is a tremendous benefit to attending nats. The vast majority of teams don't get to play in the playoffs, but when the consolation matches continue to be staffed by top-shelf talent*, it lets those players know that these matches are still valued, and contributes to an overall feeling that this tournament is worth the time, money, and effort, irrespective of how your team fares. So, while it's easy to laud the Jason Thompsons and Rob Carsons of the world, the fall-off to those running consolations was negligible this year, IMO.

* - specific shout-out to Charlie Steinhice and Adam Silverman, who ran the match I saw between Barrington B and Carmel B/C. :-)
This, this, so much this. If you were in one of the consolation brackets that ran, and you had a staffer who made sure your team had a great experience, PLEASE let us at NAQT know. :grin:
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Ndg »

I'm curious about the weirdness with the byes in the first couple of rounds of the playoff bracket.

My understanding is that the particular numbers of teams that needed to start in the winners' and elimination brackets necessitated byes in the upper bracket that dropped down to the elimination bracket for round 22 so that elimination bracket could keep the correct shape. The result is that the 65 through 69 seeds effectively leapfrogged the 55 through 64 seeds by having a bye against a higher seed.

For example: 67-seed Livingston had a round 21 bye, a round 22 bye (against the 52 card), and then a round 23 game against the 25 card. Meanwhile, 59-seed Dunbar had a bye, a round 22 game against the 60 card, and a round 23 game against the 18 card. Not a great reward for scoring 30 ppg better in the prelims!

What would have made more sense to me is if, instead of skipping seeds 50 to 54, the 100 playoff teams had been seeded 1 to 100, and then any 6-4 team that ended up in the winners' bracket (cards 50-54, in this case) would automatically "lose" their round 21 game and go to the elimination bracket from there. (Not a forfeit or anything that would go in the stats -- you'd just cross out the round 21 game on their card and send them to round 22 since the "loss" means they keep the card they came into round 21 with.)

But I'm interested to know NAQT's perspective since I'm sure you spend more time thinking about brackets and card systems then I do.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War »

Ndg wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 9:26 pm I'm curious about the weirdness with the byes in the first couple of rounds of the playoff bracket.

My understanding is that the particular numbers of teams that needed to start in the winners' and elimination brackets necessitated byes in the upper bracket that dropped down to the elimination bracket for round 22 so that elimination bracket could keep the correct shape. The result is that the 65 through 69 seeds effectively leapfrogged the 55 through 64 seeds by having a bye against a higher seed.

For example: 67-seed Livingston had a round 21 bye, a round 22 bye (against the 52 card), and then a round 23 game against the 25 card. Meanwhile, 59-seed Dunbar had a bye, a round 22 game against the 60 card, and a round 23 game against the 18 card. Not a great reward for scoring 30 ppg better in the prelims!

What would have made more sense to me is if, instead of skipping seeds 50 to 54, the 100 playoff teams had been seeded 1 to 100, and then any 6-4 team that ended up in the winners' bracket (cards 50-54, in this case) would automatically "lose" their round 21 game and go to the elimination bracket from there. (Not a forfeit or anything that would go in the stats -- you'd just cross out the round 21 game on their card and send them to round 22 since the "loss" means they keep the card they came into round 21 with.)

But I'm interested to know NAQT's perspective since I'm sure you spend more time thinking about brackets and card systems then I do.
I noticed this as well during the tournament and was puzzled by it too. In addition to everything said above, it seems odd for any loser's bracket team to get a double bye. A team with no byes in the winner's bracket could lose rounds 21 and 22 and be out of the tournament before the three double-bye teams in the loser's bracket even played. Cards 65-67 were guaranteed to finish at earliest after round 23, which was a better guarantee than existed for any team outside of the top 15!

Richard Montgomery B, IMSA, and Stevenson finished 7-3, 0-2, and were eliminated after round 22, while cards 65-67 had not even played a game by round 22 despite having an entire win fewer than all of those teams. Cards 68 and 69 getting second-round byes after defeating their first-round opponents was odd as well, of course, but I would say the 65-67 cards' situation was especially unfair, especially to any teams in the winner's bracket that had to play both rounds 21 and 22. In addition, whoever got to play cards 65-69 in round 23 would have unfairly easy opponents (of course, only in theory, not in practice; we all witnessed Livingston's run to t-10), as cards 59-64 would have (again, theoretically) been eliminated already.

Furthermore, I'm curious as to the reasoning behind card 17 having a bye in round 23, card 5 having a bye in round 25, and card 3 having a bye in round 27 after being placed in the elimination bracket. It strikes me as arbitrary to have teams be given byes based on which part of the bracket they're in (completely out of their control and not reflective of prelim performance, once you get that many rounds in). There definitely were ways to ensure that every team that lost in a given round of the winner's bracket went to the same round of the elimination bracket, or for every team remaining/eliminated at a given stage to get a bye, so I'm wondering why that wasn't done. I know that sometimes the brackets shake out in a way that necessitates an extra round for a team at some stage, but this definitely doesn't need to happen at three separate stages of the bracket.

Below, I've posted a bracket I made while waiting for my flight that solves all of the above issues. It's definitely not perfect (I dislike the lack of a bye for the winner's bracket finalist), but my point isn't to make it perfect; it's merely to demonstrate that that fixing these issues would not be mathematically impossible before people comment otherwise. Having said that, I'm sure NAQT had specific reasons for making the bracket they did and would like to withhold any judgement before hearing their thought process.

Start with 49 winners, 51 losers (will call teams in winner's/loser's bracket "winners" and "losers" for brevity)
ROUND 21: Losers have 21 games + 9 byes --> 30 teams left
ROUND 22: Winners have 17 games + 15 byes --> 32 teams left
Losers have 15 games --> 15 teams left. 32 teams total left in losers.
ROUND 23: Winners 16 games --> 16 teams left, Losers 16 games --> 16 teams left. 32 teams total left in losers.
ROUND 24: Winners 8 games --> 8 left, Losers 16 games --> 16 teams left. 24 teams total left in losers.
ROUND 25: Winners 4 games --> 4 left. Losers 12 games --> 12 left, 16 total left in losers.
ROUND 26: Winners 2 games --> 2 left. Losers 8 games --> 8 left, 10 total left in losers.
ROUND 27: Winners 1 game --> WINNER'S CHAMPION. Losers 5 games --> 5 left. 6 total join the winner's champion in super 7.

For reference, this results in teams with final standings of t5, t8, t13, t21, t33, t49, t65, and t80, which are nearly identical (outside of the t80) to the final standings of teams at the 2018 and 2019 HSNCTs.
Last edited by Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War on Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonpin »

Important Bird Area wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 12:25 pm
2022 HSNCT round 14 wrote:C. NFT owners are commonly mocked by people "taking ownership" of their NFTs by performing this simple action. A lambasted viral tweet compared the "mentality" of people who do this to people who make Salt Bae's meals at home.

answer: right-clicking (and saving) (accept right-clickers or right-clicker mentality; prompt on "save (a copy)" or "saving (a copy)"; do not accept or prompt on "screenshot(ting)")
(this indeed caused a substantial number of protests)
Also, I am reasonably confident that in its original form, the DNA "screenshot" message was not there; I believe that was added in real-time once the protests started coming in.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Cheynem »

Yeah, it wasn't there when I was reading.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Ndg »

Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 10:30 pm Below, I've posted a bracket I made while waiting for my flight that solves all of the above issues. It's definitely not perfect (I dislike the losers' bye in round 24 and the lack of a bye for the winner's bracket finalist), but my point isn't to make it perfect; it's merely to demonstrate that that fixing these issues would not be mathematically impossible before people comment otherwise. Having said that, I'm sure NAQT had specific reasons for making the bracket they did and would like to withhold any judgement before hearing their thought process.

Start with 49 winners, 51 losers (will call teams in winner's/loser's bracket "winners" and "losers" for brevity)
ROUND 21: Losers have 21 games + 9 byes --> 30 teams left
ROUND 22: Winners have 17 games + 15 byes --> 32 teams left
Losers have 15 games --> 15 teams left. 32 teams total left in losers.
ROUND 23: Winners 16 games --> 16 teams left, Losers 16 games --> 16 teams left. 24 teams total left in losers.
I don't follow this. 16 winners' bracket games means 16 teams drop down to losers' so 32 total in losers' at that point.
Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 10:30 pm ROUND 24: Winners 8 games --> 8 left, Losers ALL BYE. 24 total in losers.
...and then 8 more dropping down gets you to 40 in the losers' bracket at this point. I haven't seen your actual bracket so maybe there are just some typos and everything still works out, but it seems like this doesn't actually get you all the way down to seven teams.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

meebles127 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:36 pm Could I see the TU on sweat?
2022 HSNCT round 11 wrote:Glands that produce this substance become inflamed in the disease hidradenitis suppurativa. The axilla contains many apocrine glands that produce this substance. Chloride levels in this substance are measured in a common test for cystic fibrosis. Mammals produce this substance as a mechanism of (*) thermoregulation through evaporative cooling. For 10 points—name this liquid produced by the human body during perspiration.

answer: sweat (accept perspiration before "perspiration"; accept sweat test)
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Stained Diviner »

(I haven't worked on the HSNCT schedule in several years, and even when I did it was prelims rather than playoffs.)

Keep in mind that before the tournament NAQT does not know exactly how many teams will be in the top bracket and the bottom bracket when playoffs begin. That number depends on the outcomes of a few matches between teams with unequal records. NAQT makes its playoff schedule based on a worst-case scenario from prelims rather than making several playoff schedules to handle all possible numbers. There are several advantages of that, namely:
* They can order trophies in advance with the places on them, and the placing of the top 10-80 or so teams does not depend on some 5-4 vs 4-5 match in the prelims.
* NAQT can check, double check, and triple check one playoff bracket instead of a dozen or so playoff brackets. Each bracket would require its own set of cards that would need to be checked. That work would not carry from year to year if the field size changed, as it often does.
* NAQT can assign staff to rooms ahead of time.
* A mistake in prelim results is easier to handle when putting teams into playoff brackets if it is caught during that process.

For those reasons, I think NAQT is correct to use a worst-case bracket rather than a flexible bracket, but that's something reasonable people can disagree about.

The downside of using the worst-case scenario as opposed to more flexible scenarios is that you get some of the effects that have been pointed out in this thread--the worst-case brackets don't handle every situation with perfect efficiency. I don't know whether the problem of a top bracket team losing two matches before a bottom bracket team plays one match can be solved with the worst-case bracket--I would need the range of possible numbers and the time to play around with the brackets to figure that out. I do know that the issue of some bye inefficiencies because NAQT uses a worst-scenario bracket have been around for a very long time--possibly for the entire history of the HSNCT, though the problem was smaller in the olden days when everybody went into the double elimination bracket.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by amundhe »

May I see the Gauguin tossup?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War »

Ndg wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:39 pm
Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 10:30 pm Below, I've posted a bracket I made while waiting for my flight that solves all of the above issues. It's definitely not perfect (I dislike the losers' bye in round 24 and the lack of a bye for the winner's bracket finalist), but my point isn't to make it perfect; it's merely to demonstrate that that fixing these issues would not be mathematically impossible before people comment otherwise. Having said that, I'm sure NAQT had specific reasons for making the bracket they did and would like to withhold any judgement before hearing their thought process.

Start with 49 winners, 51 losers (will call teams in winner's/loser's bracket "winners" and "losers" for brevity)
ROUND 21: Losers have 21 games + 9 byes --> 30 teams left
ROUND 22: Winners have 17 games + 15 byes --> 32 teams left
Losers have 15 games --> 15 teams left. 32 teams total left in losers.
ROUND 23: Winners 16 games --> 16 teams left, Losers 16 games --> 16 teams left. 24 teams total left in losers.
I don't follow this. 16 winners' bracket games means 16 teams drop down to losers' so 32 total in losers' at that point.
Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 10:30 pm ROUND 24: Winners 8 games --> 8 left, Losers ALL BYE. 24 total in losers.
...and then 8 more dropping down gets you to 40 in the losers' bracket at this point. I haven't seen your actual bracket so maybe there are just some typos and everything still works out, but it seems like this doesn't actually get you all the way down to seven teams.
My mistake; thank you for catching that!

Indeed, I messed up quite badly when I was typing up the bracket, but this is a quick fix since the original bracket I made did work. There should be 32 teams left in losers after round 23, as you state. Then, all of them play round 24 (instead of getting a bye), so there will be 16 of them left after the next round, plus the 8 from winners, leaving 24 total. The rest of the bracket remains intact from there. I've fixed that in my original post.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by touchpack »

Halinaxus wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 12:15 pm Also, there was a chem bonus about thermodynamics, the third part of which asked for the term used to describe a process with negative Gibbs Free Energy. My team said "thermodynamically favorable" but were declared wrong; the given answer was "spontaneous." My AP Chem teacher (and former quiz bowl coach) specifically told our class that "spontaneous" was an outdated term and that we should use "thermodynamically favorable." I asked him again just now and he said he thinks we should have been ruled correct. It's possible I'm misremembering the bonus, but if I'm remembering correctly should we have protested this?
So, in the past, the phrase "thermodynamically favorable" would be a reasonable description of what's going on here, but not the formally correct term, and thus that answer would be at best promptable. However, some research indicates to me that there is a very recent trend in chemistry education (see one example here) to present the term "thermodynamically favorable" not as a description, but as a term of art itself describing the reaction. Thus, I would agree that "thermodynamically favorable" should be an alternate acceptable answer, and apologize for not having been aware of this (it has been many years since I took AP chemistry).

I would, however, slightly push back against the assertion that the term "spontaneous" is "outdated", both because this appears to be a very recent shift (and therefore I would bet that the vast majority of chemists, chemical engineers, and people like me who have one of those degrees but have since changed careers still use the term "spontaneous"), and because many modern curricula still teach the term "spontaneous". For example, when researching this, I looked for the most recent AP chem curriculum I could easily find on the internet, and stumbled upon this source, which teaches the term spontaneous, then later teaches thermodynamic favorability.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Halinaxus »

touchpack wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:41 pm So, in the past, the phrase "thermodynamically favorable" would be a reasonable description of what's going on here, but not the formally correct term, and thus that answer would be at best promptable. However, some research indicates to me that there is a very recent trend in chemistry education (see one example here) to present the term "thermodynamically favorable" not as a description, but as a term of art itself describing the reaction. Thus, I would agree that "thermodynamically favorable" should be an alternate acceptable answer, and apologize for not having been aware of this (it has been many years since I took AP chemistry).

I would, however, slightly push back against the assertion that the term "spontaneous" is "outdated", both because this appears to be a very recent shift (and therefore I would bet that the vast majority of chemists, chemical engineers, and people like me who have one of those degrees but have since changed careers still use the term "spontaneous"), and because many modern curricula still teach the term "spontaneous". For example, when researching this, I looked for the most recent AP chem curriculum I could easily find on the internet, and stumbled upon this source, which teaches the term spontaneous, then later teaches thermodynamic favorability.
Thanks for looking into this! I used the term "outdated" because that's the word my chem teacher used, but he's a fairly young teacher in his second year of teaching AP Chem so he wouldn't have the same perspective as many current people in the field.

On a completely different topic, I'd like to mention that I found this to be by far the most enjoyable HSNCT set of the few I've played, with a lot of really interesting questions. In particular, I liked the tossups on tornadoes and nuclear reactors from round 9, and the bonus on Operation Ten-Go and Okinawa from the playoffs.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Amazingguysofguys »

May I see The Swing and New Model Army tossups?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonpin »

Stained Diviner wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:18 pm (I haven't worked on the HSNCT schedule in several years, and even when I did it was prelims rather than playoffs.)

Keep in mind that before the tournament NAQT does not know exactly how many teams will be in the top bracket and the bottom bracket when playoffs begin. That number depends on the outcomes of a few matches between teams with unequal records. NAQT makes its playoff schedule based on a worst-case scenario from prelims rather than making several playoff schedules to handle all possible numbers. There are several advantages of that, namely:
* They can order trophies in advance with the places on them, and the placing of the top 10-80 or so teams does not depend on some 5-4 vs 4-5 match in the prelims.
* NAQT can check, double check, and triple check one playoff bracket instead of a dozen or so playoff brackets. Each bracket would require its own set of cards that would need to be checked. That work would not carry from year to year if the field size changed, as it often does.
* NAQT can assign staff to rooms ahead of time.
* A mistake in prelim results is easier to handle when putting teams into playoff brackets if it is caught during that process.

For those reasons, I think NAQT is correct to use a worst-case bracket rather than a flexible bracket, but that's something reasonable people can disagree about.

The downside of using the worst-case scenario as opposed to more flexible scenarios is that you get some of the effects that have been pointed out in this thread--the worst-case brackets don't handle every situation with perfect efficiency. I don't know whether the problem of a top bracket team losing two matches before a bottom bracket team plays one match can be solved with the worst-case bracket--I would need the range of possible numbers and the time to play around with the brackets to figure that out. I do know that the issue of some bye inefficiencies because NAQT uses a worst-scenario bracket have been around for a very long time--possibly for the entire history of the HSNCT, though the problem was smaller in the olden days when everybody went into the double elimination bracket.
None of the above is wrong, but I believe in previous years the best 6-4 team would have the card number immediately following the worst 7-3 team. So card 50 might be a 7-3 team, starting vs 15 in the winners' bracket; or it might be a 6-4 team, starting with a bye in the elimination bracket. That would eliminate the not-goodness.

Another possible set-up that also avoids the byes awarded to some teams dropping in the same round, though with a larger block at one point:
Round 1 - Winners' bracket plays down to 32 (32-33, 31-34, 30-35, etc.). Losers' bracket plays down to 64 (96-97, 95-98, 94-99, etc.)
Round 2 - 16 winners, 16 fall to join 32 survivors (16+48)
Round 3 - 8 winners, 8 fall to join 24 survivors (8+32)
Round 4 - Winners all get byes, 16 survivors (8+16, eliminated teams are t-25th)
Round 5 - 4 winners, 4 fall to join 8 survivors (4+12, eliminated teams are t-17th)
Round 6 - 2 winners, 2 fall to join 6 survivors (2+8, eliminated teams are t-11th)
Round 7 - Winners get byes, 4 survivors (2+4, eliminated teams are t-7th)
Round 8 - Super Six: Winners' final, quarterfinals (eliminated teams play off in Round 9 for 5th/6th)
Round 9 - Semifinals, including cross-bracket game
Round 10/11 - Finals

This bracket system has a lot of room that wouldn't be needed this year (there would only be a few elimination games in round one), but could be used in basically the same form if the field expanded back into the ~320 team range.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

2022 HSNCT round 16 wrote:This artist depicted two women worshiping a dark-skinned Mary with Christ on her shoulder in the painting Ia Orana Maria. A raven overlooks a nude woman laying in bed in this artist's Nevermore. Another work by this artist shows a girl with a tiare flower behind her (*) ear crouching in front of a girl in a pink European-style dress. When Will You Marry? is a work by—for 10 points—what French artist who moved to Tahiti?
2022 HSNCT round 20 wrote:A 2001 sculptural homage to this painting by Yinka Shonibare uses a headless mannequin. A white dog sits in front of a man in the shadows holding two ropes on this painting's right side. On its left, a pedestaled statue of a cherub holds a (*) finger to its lips as a man hides in the bushes and a shoe flies off an exposed foot. For 10 points—name this rococo painting of a woman on a movable seat by Jean-Honore Fragonard.
2022 HSNCT round 1 wrote:This organization demanded a provision of indemnity in the "Solemn Engagement." The Earl of Essex was prevented from leading this force by the Self-Denying Ordinance. Men opposed to this force were removed from office in Pride's Purge. Thomas (*) Fairfax led this group to victory at Naseby against Charles I. Oliver Cromwell was a cavalry commander in—for 10 points—what Roundhead army that won the First English Civil War?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Shourjo.Ganguli »

May I see the Godot tossup?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Cheynem »

Shourjo.Ganguli wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:03 pm May I see the Godot tossup?
Afraid you've got to do some...

WAITING
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Whiter Hydra »

jonpin wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:36 pmAnother possible set-up that also avoids the byes awarded to some teams dropping in the same round, though with a larger block at one point:
Round 1 - Winners' bracket plays down to 32 (32-33, 31-34, 30-35, etc.). Losers' bracket plays down to 64 (96-97, 95-98, 94-99, etc.)
Round 2 - 16 winners, 16 fall to join 32 survivors (16+48)
Round 3 - 8 winners, 8 fall to join 24 survivors (8+32)
Round 4 - Winners all get byes, 16 survivors (8+16, eliminated teams are t-25th)
Round 5 - 4 winners, 4 fall to join 8 survivors (4+12, eliminated teams are t-17th)
Round 6 - 2 winners, 2 fall to join 6 survivors (2+8, eliminated teams are t-11th)
Round 7 - Winners get byes, 4 survivors (2+4, eliminated teams are t-7th)
Round 8 - Super Six: Winners' final, quarterfinals (eliminated teams play off in Round 9 for 5th/6th)
Round 9 - Semifinals, including cross-bracket game
Round 10/11 - Finals

This bracket system has a lot of room that wouldn't be needed this year (there would only be a few elimination games in round one), but could be used in basically the same form if the field expanded back into the ~320 team range.
Another possibility would be to not have any byes in the winner's bracket, at the end of which you'd have one winner's bracket team and seven loser's bracket teams. You could put the crossover game one round early as a 1v8.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

Shourjo.Ganguli wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:03 pm May I see the Godot tossup?
2022 HSNCT round 23 wrote:This character "couldn't promise anything" after being offered "a kind of prayer" and "a vague supplication." This character's creator insisted he was not based on a character from Balzac's Mercadet. A boy who keeps goats for this character says this man's beard is white instead of fair or black, and reports "he (*) won't come this evening but surely tomorrow." For 10 points—name this man for whom Vladimir and Estragon are "waiting."
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by robby_redford »

may I see the tossups on Blackpink and Demi Lovato?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

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2022 HSNCT round 25 wrote:This band was criticized for placing a statue of Ganesha next to an Aladdin lamp in a 2020 music video that set a record for most YouTube views within 24 hours. Members of this band say that they are "in your area" to introduce songs like (*) "Kill This Love" and "How You Like That." This is the most-followed girl group on Spotify. Jisoo, Jennie, Rose, and Lisa are the members of—for 10 points—what K-pop group?
2022 HSNCT round 23 wrote:This singer reminisces about "the old days when the phone would ring and I knew it was you" in the song "Get Back," which was the lead single from this singer's debut album Don't Forget. This singer laments how "you see me standing, but I'm dying on the floor" in the song (*) "Stone Cold." The 2017 album Tell Me You Love Me opens with the song "Sorry Not Sorry" by—for 10 points—what singer who starred in Disney Channel's Camp Rock?
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

Per a request in the Discord:
2022 HSNCT round 9 wrote:In Disney's Fantasia, Night on Bald Mountain is followed by this song, accompanying a line of monks. For 10 points each—

A. What Franz Schubert song, originally called "Ellen's Third Song," addresses a "maiden mild" who is "undefiled"?

B. "Ave Maria" is a setting of songs from this author's poem The Lady of the Lake. He wrote the novel The Fair Maid of Perth.

C. The Riddler sings "Ave Maria" in this 2022 film starring Robert Pattinson.
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Re: 2022 HSNCT discussion

Post by Fado Alexandrino »

Now I can finally read this discussion thread!

I was wondering why this year's playoffs played to a Super Six format instead of a Super Seven format, used in previous 272 team HSNCTs, such as 2014 and 2015. The only bye during those events, outside of the first round, iirc was a card 1 bye three rounds into the playoffs and a card 1 bye in the Super Seven.
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