Who's Doing CO This Year?

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The King's Flight to the Scots
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Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots »

So, we're getting rather deep into the academic year without anyone stepping up to edit Chicago Open. This situation was probably inevitable, given how much harder CO editing has become over the past decade. Since I edited CO, quality standards have gotten higher, packet submission has gotten rarer, and playoffs on editors' packets have become the norm. With no formal institutional support, it's going to be hard to assemble an editing team for such a rigorous event every year.

In this thread, I'd like us to talk about ways to lighten the load for any potential editors; these could include lowering the number of packets required, increasing the number of quality submissions, or lowering the difficulty or length of CO questions, among other measures. I'd also like to invite anybody who'd tentatively be interested in subject editing to step forward. As a community, we should be exerting some effort to make this event happen, since it'd be a real loss to let this tradition lapse.
Last edited by The King's Flight to the Scots on Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Cheynem »

Here are some rough ideas I have:

1. Packet deadlines should be moved up sooner and the drop dead deadline should be much sooner.

2. A field cap should be set up that allows for a round robin or for brackets that only require a small number of editors packets in the playoffs. How do we set the field cap? I'm unsure--the fairest way is probably to let in the first number of teams who sign up to write a full packet and then vigorously drop those who flake out or turn in absolute crap. If feasible, you could have the teams who couldn't get in play in a second division using the submitted packets.

3. We should try to "demystify" CO. I have no idea why people are not interested in doing CO--clearly, it's not because nobody is capable of doing so. There's wonderful talent doing many other important tournaments. I don't know if people are just unsure if they are up to the task of doing CO...it's actually easier than a fair number of other tournaments to do because you are mostly working with submissions, the questions don't have to be gradated as perfectly, and it requires less packets. I had a splendid time working on Chicago Open in 2016.

4. I don't know if money is the prime factor, but I think the price to play CO could be upped. You get yer bang for yer buck at Chicago Open if you like playing quizbowl (maybe not so much if you like eating, sleeping, or functioning like a human being). There have been years where I as an individual have been paid less than $40 to play! Ridiculous!
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by ryanrosenberg »

I think that Mike's point about demystifying CO is a good one -- this last year is a great example of a team that didn't have much experience editing open-level tournaments and they produced a very good set. Limiting the number of editors' packets is also a good idea.

I'd be interested in subject editing 1/1-ish and can help with the logistical side of set/tournament planning.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by meebles127 »

To whomever ends up editing CO:

Unless I am in Africa or chained to Boston, I plan to direct CO this year, assuming the editing team is open to having me.

EDIT: If I TD CO, it will not stretch into Sunday morning.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by tpmorrison »

I think that some combination of length limits (e.g. 8-line tossups), earlier submission deadlines, and full packet submissions would be helpful, particularly the latter two.

I’m not interested in editing (except math/stats if that’d be helpful), but I’d be happy to freelance some questions across the set.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by etotheipi »

If you would be willing to entrust the job to someone with comparatively little experience but plenty of time to take on such a project, I would be willing to edit some to most of the literature. I can also contribute a not-insignificant number of questions for editors packets.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

I'm not gonna edit or freelance this year.

Some suggestions I previously ventured on Discord:
  • Split the field into Divisions, which would allow for shorter/simpler schedules and more matches between teams of similar skill level. (E.g. two divisons of 13 that each do a full round-robin.)
  • Stricter length caps, e.g. 6-7 lines for tossups and some specific bonus target like "at least one 'Yaphe-style'/ one-line part" or "no more than 7 lines of text across bonus leadin and all three parts".
Stray observation: It seems like, in recent years, the number of editors per tournament has sharply increased (10+ is now normal) and the typical number of (sub)categories edited per editor has decreased proportionally. Does the fact that most subject editor jobs are smaller increase anxiety about the prospect of head editing? Does this make it harder or easier to assemble writing teams? Do people tend to feel they've hit their limit for the ~year editing 1/1 or 2/2 on one set, or more able to do several small editing jobs?

Also:
The King's Flight to the Scots wrote:With no formal institutional support,
Could there... perhaps... be sources of this? CO is not exactly in the ambit of ACF or PACE or IQBT or NAQT, but perhaps some existing entity or entities see enough value in "capstone achievement that anyone can play" to support it a bit.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots »

Adventure Temple Trail wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:28 pm
Also:
The King's Flight to the Scots wrote:With no formal institutional support,
Could there... perhaps... be sources of this? CO is not exactly in the ambit of ACF or PACE or IQBT or NAQT, but perhaps some existing entity or entities see enough value in "capstone achievement that anyone can play" to support it a bit.
For a long time, the new CO editor was supposed to be chosen by the previous editor(s). I'm not sure that tradition was ever actually observed in the span of our careers, but if people wanted it could be revived in modified form. Maybe, the head editors of the previous three CO's are responsible for selecting the next one, or recruiting candidates if nobody volunteers. This does give editors an additional job to worry about, but not a horribly onerous one, and not over the same timespan as their editing responsibilities.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Mike Bentley »

I'm probably not attending this year's event so might be willing to make some contributions.

I've long felt the round robin format of CO is pretty dumb even if I'm probably in the top 5% of people willing to tolerate playing quizbowl at 11 PM. I'd be happy to turn this into a more normal tournament.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Serpentine284 »

If there is not going to be a division split, I probably will not end up playing CO. If that scenario occurs, then I would be happy to contribute some questions for editors' packets and maybe help edit some European history and philosophy.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Lagotto Romagnolo »

Cheynem wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:20 pm I don't know if people are just unsure if they are up to the task of doing CO...it's actually easier than a fair number of other tournaments to do because you are mostly working with submissions, the questions don't have to be gradated as perfectly, and it requires less packets. I had a splendid time working on Chicago Open in 2016.
I'm glad you enjoyed that experience, Mike, and I enjoyed working with you as well, but as you may recall, there were several packets that year that we threw out entirely and several others that were in dire need of repair. My gut instinct at the time was to attribute this to the existence of super-teams - good writers tend to be experienced players, and if you concentrate all of them in a small number of teams, you're likely to get a few packets of very good questions and more than a few not-so-good ones (An oversimplification, but one that I recall was borne out in practice that year). Perhaps the average writer's skill has improved since then to the point where it's less of an issue now, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Two things mentioned above that would certainly alleviate the burden and expectations of CO:
1. A TD separate from the editing team (Props to Em for volunteering to do this)
2. Moving the deadlines forward, because:
John Lawrence back in 2014 wrote:By the way, the reason that early deadlines for CO submission are rarely met is not that we're all lazy. It's that most of the top players are major writers/editors for HSNCT, NSC, or NASAT, which they need to devote a lot of attention to, or are just coming off of editing or playing ACF Nationals.
Last edited by Lagotto Romagnolo on Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Cheynem »

Lagotto Romagnolo wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:51 am
Cheynem wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:20 pm I don't know if people are just unsure if they are up to the task of doing CO...it's actually easier than a fair number of other tournaments to do because you are mostly working with submissions, the questions don't have to be gradated as perfectly, and it requires less packets. I had a splendid time working on Chicago Open in 2016.
I'm glad you enjoyed that experience, Mike, and I enjoyed working with you as well, but as you may recall, there were several packets that year that we threw out entirely and several others that were in dire need of repair. As I recall, my gut instinct at the time was to attribute this to the existence of super-teams - good writers tend to be experienced players, and if you concentrate all of them in a small number of teams, you're likely to get a few packets of very good questions and more than a few not-so-good ones (An oversimplification, but one that I recall was borne out in practice that year). Perhaps the average writer's skill has improved since then to the point where it's less of an issue now, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Two things mentioned above that would certainly alleviate the burden and expectations of CO:
1. A TD separate from the editing team (Props to Em for volunteering to do this)
2. Moving the deadlines forward, because:
John Lawrence back in 2014 wrote:By the way, the reason that early deadlines for CO submission are rarely met is not that we're all lazy. It's that most of the top players are major writers/editors for HSNCT, NSC, or NASAT, which they need to devote a lot of attention to, or are just coming off of editing or playing ACF Nationals.
I actually thought on the whole the submissions (in my categories anyway) were decent for that year's CO. I remember getting some solid questions from relatively inexperienced teams and some way too hard questions from very experienced teams. Your point is correct, though--submissions are going to be an extremely mixed bag and deadlines should be moved forward to allow time to manage said submissions.

I believe the TD has been separate from the editing team for a few years now for what it's worth.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Shorts are comfy and easy to wear »

I'm willing to edit the history.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by VSCOelasticity »

I'd be willing to write some for CO but do not want to be an editor. I wouldn't be available to contribute until May.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by krollo »

Would also be happy to write; provisionally interested in editing like 1/1 or something depending on what other people sign up for.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by I like cookies »

I'd be open to writing for CO if it actually becomes a thing this year. Also, would be down to edit Beliefs/Ancient History provided there isn't anyone better qualified for that position who wants it.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Krik? Krik?! KRIIIIK!!! »

Please please please tell me the game of Nose Goes ends soon please I just want to lower my arm again

I could edit VFA! I don't want to write or edit much beyond that though. My priority getting the NSC out the door, so I'll only really be able to help starting mid-June.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Heiliger Dankgesang »

I'd be open to at least freelancing some classical music questions. *Maybe* I can help edit that category too. I'm just not sure what my summer plans are looking like at the moment and therefore I'm not sure how much I could rationally commit to doing.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by kdroge »

As far as I know, no one has reached out to me about head editing CO for next year or getting a team of people together- though it does seem like there are lots of people interested in contributing (which is great!).

To anyone who is considering writing / editing for CO, I would encourage you not to be intimidated too much. I would guess that most of the people who have worked on COs past (certainly myself included) have found the experience worthwhile and memorable.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by superdooku »

I would be willing to help write some history/geography/beliefs questions but I don't think I'm very qualified to be an editor for any of those categories
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Arras Agility »

Happy to edit CS again if asked
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Eddie »

Hi everyone,

I edited the increasingly-small categories of m*ths (mathematics and mythology, but neither chemistry nor entomology) and linguistics for Chicago Open 2022. I also informally supervised and wrote a handful of questions in music, which was edited by Sameer Apte. As others have said, I highly encourage younger or inexperienced editors to work on Chicago Open. I can vouch that my younger or inexperienced co-editors brought fresh ideas and creative ways of writing questions. I encourage anyone who is on the fence or suffering from imposter syndrome.

I cannot speak much to the logistics of future Chicago Opens, but I can also vouch that Em Gunter was a wonderful tournament co-director with whom to have communicated during and before the tournament.

Also, I am happy to freelance questions for my usual categories, music and mythology; and as of late, mathematics and linguistics.

Also, I am always in support of any stirrings to reduce Chicago Open in both difficulty and question length. I think that seven lines is a good limit for both tossups and bonuses (in comparison, Chicago Open 2022 had eight-line tossups and unbounded bonuses [1]), but I think the "at least one 'Yaphe-style' [2]/ one-line part" constraint can be better-phrased as "no bonus part exceeds the second line". This rules out a pathological 4–1–1–1-liner bonus, and limits the longest permissible bonus to a 2–2–2–1-liner, from which we obtain the desired one-line bonus part.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by nickdai »

I highkey miss being involved in quizbowl so I'd be interested in editing religion and maybe contribute some random vanity content too.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Shorts are comfy and easy to wear »

Since it has been nearly two weeks since Matt began this thread and there is still no answer to his question, I feel obliged to make a stronger commitment/appeal to the community than my earlier post. Like I said before, I am willing to edit the history, and, with proper support, I suppose I could be the head editor. However, I can't do it alone; I just don't have the lit/science/arts/etc. backgrounds to put together a full set.

If you're concerned about your qualifications, you'll probably do better than you think as long as you can stay ahead on work. It wasn't perfect, but that mindset helped me produce a history distro I'm proud of in my first editing role (IO 2021). There are also plenty of people in the community who would be willing to playtest, look over the set, and/or provide logistical or writing advice.

It would be a damn shame if we let this tournament die this year due to apathy. PLEASE, if you are willing to head edit, subject edit, or provide general oversight, or are just considering any of the former, contact me. Any of Facebook, the main Discord, the forums, or email ([email protected]) work. Though appreciated, save any offers to chip in questions for if/when an editing team is formed.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by DavidB256 »

If no one else wants it, I am interested in editing some (possibly improper) subset of osci (ideally just math/stats/CS), biology (ideally not anatomy/physiology), and physics. I expect to have plenty of free time this summer as I take a break before starting grad school in the fall.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots »

Shorts are comfy and easy to wear wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:36 am Like I said before, I am willing to edit the history, and, with proper support, I suppose I could be the head editor.

Buddy I'm afraid you may have drawn the short stick.

More seriously: you did an amazing job on the history for IO and both iterations of FRENCH, I think you'd do a great job subject editing the history. I also trust that you could handle the logistical duties that a head editor has to cover. As for the rest of the distribution, it seems like there are enough volunteers in this thread to cover most of it.

I would encourage you to ask the most experienced teams to commit to submitting high-quality, full packets. In the past, I've generally been likely to put more effort into such a task when my team has been asked in advance; given the burden you're assuming here, I hope others will also be willing to put more care than usual into their questions. Perhaps be more forward than usual in asking for edits and rewrites, too.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Second everything Matt said.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Borrowing 100,000 Arrows »

Since I probably won't be able to attend CO anyway on account of teaching a summer class, I'd be down to chip in some questions if not edit a category or two.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Dantooine is Big! »

FZ
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Dantooine is Big! »

Having asked Alex (Fregeau) for his blessing, I'll be reaching out to people who posted in this thread and other known good editors to assemble a team. I probably won't edit unless it's really necessary, which doesn't seem like it'll be the case. But I will be down to help out with the logistics alongside Alex. If you are a writer or editor who has a particular desire to work on the set this year, you should feel free to contact me. My Discord username is call_me_red#1357 and my email is youngflee99 at gmail dot com. Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by meebles127 »

Dantooine is Big! wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:59 pm Having asked Alex (Fregeau) for his blessing, I'll be reaching out to people who posted in this thread and other known good editors to assemble a team. I probably won't edit unless it's really necessary, which doesn't seem like it'll be the case. But I will be down to help out with the logistics alongside Alex. If you are a writer or editor who has a particular desire to work on the set this year, you should feel free to contact me. My Discord username is call_me_red#1357 and my email is youngflee99 at gmail dot com. Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.
Please add me to this.
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Re: Who's Doing CO This Year?

Post by Dantooine is Big! »

OPEN CALL FOR EDITORS

Hey all, I've been coordinating the assembly of a writing team for this year's Chicago Open. We're looking to be in pretty good shape in terms of editor category coverage, and we have a long list of writers, which is good because it'll truly take a village to get this set done in time. Thank you to everyone who has stepped up to the plate, you know who you are by now.

This is an open call for the categories we're missing. Out of "Other Science," we have people doing math/stats, CS, and earth science, but not anyone for the rest, which would be astronomy and engineering/applied questions. We also don't have an OFA editor. This is an open call for subject editors in those categories.

We are also looking for someone to provide head editor level oversight on the science as a whole. This responsibility would basically be final say on decisions regarding the science questions, and ideally would not involve writing a ton.

That’s all for now, but stay tuned, we may be making another post soon calling for playtesters. Thank you all for your attention. If you are interested in any of this, please contact me at call_me_red#1357 on Discord or at youngflee99 at gmail dot com.
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