2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

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2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by AKKOLADE »

This is a preliminary date claim that International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, LLC will be hosting its second Undergraduate Championship on March 2, 2024.

This event will be held in person at Columbia University in New York, New York.

The difficulty of this set will be three dots per the College Quiz Bowl Calendar Difficulty Scale.

Kurtis Droge is our head editor. Our subject editors are Matt Bollinger, Noah Sheidlower, Andrew Rout, Briana Magin, Maxwell Ye, Dan Ni, John Lawrence, Emmett Laurie, Vasa Clarke, Caleb Kendrick, & Kurtis Droge.

Entry fees

The base entry fee is $540 per team.

There is a $20 discount fee per working lock-out set that accommodates at least eight players. Schools are limited to two such discounts without special dispensation. Wireless buzzers are not accepted.

Staffers are paid $75 per day for their work. They can donate their pay towards a team's entry fee.

Entry fees must be paid by February 22.

Teams can drop from the field without cost by January 31. Schools that drop from the field between February 1-February 22 will owe $270 per registered team. Schools that drop from the field between February 23 & March 2 owe $540 per registered team.

Information about eligibility

Teams may only be made up of teams that qualify as undergraduate students, per the following information.

A competition year is defined as beginning August 1 of a year and concludes on the subsequent July 31.

A postsecondary degree is an associate’s, bachelor’s, doctorate, or master’s degree.

An accredited school is one that offers classes towards earning a postsecondary degree.

A class is a course taken for credit at an accredited school. Classes include practical experiences such as internships or work placement programs. Classes may be taken online.

An undergraduate student is defined as:
• Having graduated from high school or have completed a GED.
• Having not graduated with a postsecondary degree (excluding associate's degrees taking fewer than four years to earn) before the competition year.
• Having completed no more than ten semesters of post-high school education.
• Taking two classes over the competition year.

To compete in the fall semester, an undergraduate student must be taking two “normal” classes worth of credit at the time, where, for a traditional, two semester per academic year college, each class would be worth 3.0 credit hours.

To compete in the spring semester, an undergraduate student must be taking or have taken a total of two “normal” classes worth of credit over the academic year, where, for a traditional, two semester per academic year college, each class would be worth 3.0 credit hours. Students who fulfill this requirement and graduated after the fall semester are eligible in the spring semester.

Students enrolled in a co-op or other experiential course but are under the necessary number of credit hours to be eligible and that meet all the other eligibility requirements may request an exemption to be granted eligibility by email Fred Morlan at [email protected].

Question distribution

The question distribution of subjects is as follows:

Image

Teams interested in registering or that have additional questions may contact Fred Morlan at [email protected].
Last edited by AKKOLADE on Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:56 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by benchapman »

I don't think collegiate quizbowl can support 3 in-person nationals in a year. Last year's online event was a success, and I think many of the teams that attended would be unable to play this tournament if it were held in person. I'd advocate for this to be held online again.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

IQBT is pleased to announce that we will be hosting this in person at Columbia University in New York City.

This post will be used for tracking the field.
Last edited by AKKOLADE on Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by Auks Ran Ova »

AKKOLADE wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:43 pm IQBT is pleased to announce that we will be hosting this in person at Columbia University in New York City.
This seems like an odd decision given that the poll was (albeit somewhat narrowly) in favor of an online event, most clearly because travel to three in-person nationals is a significant ask in both time and money, and that Columbia is a fairly expensive place to host a tournament for a variety of logistical reasons.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

The survey was essentially a tie. The overarching discourse in quiz bowl has been a desire to return to in-person events for things like national championships. It's more appealing for the purposes of outreach to have the national championship in person, and I have been investing a lot of time into outreach via the Qualifier. As of yesterday, I have contacted people from over 300 universities

I've talked with people familiar with the Columbia campus and its surrounding area. There are plenty of bus, taxi, & subway options for transport, and cheaper hotels are available in New Jersey in areas like Fort Lee. LGA costs about 4/5 of what it costs to fly into ORD per this resource.

The concerns about three national championships was present last year; we had a field of 29 teams. We were fortunate to be well supported last year, and I hope we will be again this year.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

I was asked this earlier, so:
Kurtis Droge is our head editor. Our subject editors are Matt Bollinger, Noah Sheidlower, Andrew Rout, Briana Magin, Maxwell Ye, Dan Ni, John Lawrence, Emmett Laurie, Vasa Clarke, Caleb Kendrick, & Kurtis Droge.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

The following information regarding entry fees has been added to the original post.
AKKOLADE wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:26 pm Entry fees

The base entry fee is $700 per team.

There is a $20 discount fee per working lock-out set that accommodates at least eight players. Schools are limited to two such discounts without special dispensation. Wireless buzzers are not accepted.

Staffers are paid $75 per day for their work. They can donate their pay towards a team's entry fee.

Entry fees must be paid by February 22.

Teams can drop from the field without cost by January 31. Schools that drop from the field between February 1-February 22 will owe $350 per registered team. Schools that drop from the field between February 23 & March 2 will owe $700 per registered team.
If we do not get 30 teams registered by January 15, we will cancel the tournament.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

I just sent out a survey to the 40 qualified teams asking if they would prefer a one-day tournament at a $540 entry fee or a two-day at a $700 entry fee. We'll determine our plan off the results of this survey.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Given that this tournament costs more to attend than ACF Nationals, with few opportunities for discounts, I might suggest online alternatives to canceling?
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

naan/steak-holding toll wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:24 pm Given that this tournament costs more to attend than ACF Nationals, with few opportunities for discounts, I might suggest online alternatives to canceling?
We'll see from the survey, but I don't expect this tournament - with a fee comparable to ICT, the other college national that doesn't require packet submission - to have to go online.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by Heiliger Dankgesang »

AKKOLADE wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 4:08 pm
naan/steak-holding toll wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:24 pm Given that this tournament costs more to attend than ACF Nationals, with few opportunities for discounts, I might suggest online alternatives to canceling?
We'll see from the survey, but I don't expect this tournament - with a fee comparable to ICT, the other college national that doesn't require packet submission - to have to go online.
For what it's worth, I don't think that a tournament whose base fee is 30% more expensive than that of ICT ($520) can claim to have a fee "comparable to ICT."
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

Heiliger Dankgesang wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:34 pm
AKKOLADE wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 4:08 pm
naan/steak-holding toll wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:24 pm Given that this tournament costs more to attend than ACF Nationals, with few opportunities for discounts, I might suggest online alternatives to canceling?
We'll see from the survey, but I don't expect this tournament - with a fee comparable to ICT, the other college national that doesn't require packet submission - to have to go online.
For what it's worth, I don't think that a tournament whose base fee is 30% more expensive than that of ICT ($520) can claim to have a fee "comparable to ICT."
I was referring to the proposed one day fee of $540.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2-3/3/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

AKKOLADE wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:15 pm I just sent out a survey to the 40 qualified teams asking if they would prefer a one-day tournament at a $540 entry fee or a two-day at a $700 entry fee. We'll determine our plan off the results of this survey.
I polled on the level of schools rather than individual teams - I thought it was more equitable this way.

11 teams voted for a one-day tournament
4 teams voted for a two-day tournament
5 teams voted they would attend the tournament regardless of how many days it lasted
3 teams voted they would not attend the tournament regardless of how many days it lasted

We will shift our plans to a one-day tournament with a $540 entry fee. Thank you to everyone for their input.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

Invitations are being sent out this morning. We have a public invitation tracker available here. Teams are asked to accept or decline their bids by December 15. We are encouraging teams that know they are going to decline their bid to let us know as soon as possible, so we can invite the next team on the waitlist.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

I know some teams are still working on figuring out if they can attend, but please do let me know if you are or are not able to attend this tournament absolutely no later than January 15. Please do let me know as soon as you are able so I can either add you to the field or invite the next team on the waitlist.

Specifically, these teams have not responded:

California Berkeley A
Cornell B
Cornell C
Florida A
Georgia Tech A
Harvard
Johns Hopkins A
Kentucky
Kenyon A
Missouri
Notre Dame A
Rutgers A
Rutgers B
Stanford A
Truman State
Virginia
Waterloo
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

I was asked about the status of the tournament. With 27 teams currently registered, we will be proceeding with the tournament.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

The 15th is the last day for currently invited teams to accept or decline their invitation. If I do not hear from your team by that date, I will treat it as you declining your bid.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

AKKOLADE wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:45 pm The 15th is the last day for currently invited teams to accept or decline their invitation. If I do not hear from your team by that date, I will treat it as you declining your bid.
Today is this deadline. There are invitations outstanding to Arkansas A, Johns Hopkins A, Missouri, Rutgers B, Truman State, and Waterloo that I have not heard back from.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

We currently have 29 teams registered, with one new invitation out as of this morning. I will take a couple days to determine if we're increasing our current field cap from 30 teams.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

This is a reminder that January 31 is the no penalty drop date for the field. Schools that drop from the field between February 1-February 22 will owe $270 per registered team. Schools that drop from the field between February 23 & March 2 owe $540 per registered team.

I am working on invoices tonight and hope to have them all out by tomorrow.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

We are currently at 28 teams registered. I have a cap of 32 teams that I am trying to reach. Four teams currently have invitations, with four more on the waitlist for them. I'm hoping to hear back from these teams rather quickly over the next few days.

If you are interested in registering for this tournament and have not done so yet, please reach out to me at [email protected].
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

We are currently at 30 teams, with one another having indicated interest. Here are our planned schedules.

30 teams: Five brackets of six into five brackets of six with one tiebreaker round, with two parallel top brackets (10 rounds) with one tiebreaker round + 1 game final (rebracket after 5 rounds) [13 rounds total including the final]

Teams will be initially seeded into 5 brackets of 6, in which they will play a five-game round-robin. The top two teams within each bracket, plus the two best third-place teams, will be placed into two six-team brackets, containing a mix of top, second-place, and third-place finishers. The remaining 18 teams will be placed into 3 brackets of 6, seeded by their finish in the preliminary rounds.

Each team will play a five-game round-robin within their new brackets. After the final game, the top team in each of the two top brackets will play in a one-game final match, while the second, third, and fourth-place teams in these brackets will play their counterparts in the other top bracket to determine 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th place. We will only do a tiebreaker round after the second bracket to determine the team that reaches the championship game; all other ties will be broken on paper.

31 or 32 teams: Four brackets of eight into eight brackets of four with one tiebreaker round, with two parallel top brackets (10 rounds) with one tiebreaker round + 1 game final (rebracket after 7) [13 rounds total including the final]

Teams will be initially seeded into 4 brackets of 8, in which they will play a seven-game round-robin. The top two teams within each bracket will be placed into two four-team brackets, each of which contains two top finishers and two second-place finishers. The remaining 24 teams will be placed into five brackets, each of which contains teams that finished in the same position in the preliminary rounds.

Each team will play a three-game round-robin within their new brackets. After the final game, the top team in each of the two top brackets will play in a one-game final match, while the second, third, and fourth-place teams in these brackets will play their counterparts in the other top bracket to determine 3rd, 5th, and 7th place. We will only do a tiebreaker round after the second bracket to determine the team that reaches the final; all other ties will be broken on paper.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

We are also looking for at least one more team for the tournament; if you're interested in competing with a team that fits the eligibility criteria, please email me at [email protected].
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

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AKKOLADE wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 3:17 pm We are currently at 30 teams, with one another having indicated interest. Here are our planned schedules.

30 teams: Five brackets of six into five brackets of six with one tiebreaker round, with two parallel top brackets (10 rounds) with one tiebreaker round + 1 game final (rebracket after 5 rounds) [13 rounds total including the final]

Teams will be initially seeded into 5 brackets of 6, in which they will play a five-game round-robin. The top two teams within each bracket, plus the two best third-place teams, will be placed into two six-team brackets, containing a mix of top, second-place, and third-place finishers. The remaining 18 teams will be placed into 3 brackets of 6, seeded by their finish in the preliminary rounds.

Each team will play a five-game round-robin within their new brackets. After the final game, the top team in each of the two top brackets will play in a one-game final match, while the second, third, and fourth-place teams in these brackets will play their counterparts in the other top bracket to determine 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th place. We will only do a tiebreaker round after the second bracket to determine the team that reaches the championship game; all other ties will be broken on paper.

31 or 32 teams: Four brackets of eight into eight brackets of four with one tiebreaker round, with two parallel top brackets (10 rounds) with one tiebreaker round + 1 game final (rebracket after 7) [13 rounds total including the final]

Teams will be initially seeded into 4 brackets of 8, in which they will play a seven-game round-robin. The top two teams within each bracket will be placed into two four-team brackets, each of which contains two top finishers and two second-place finishers. The remaining 24 teams will be placed into five brackets, each of which contains teams that finished in the same position in the preliminary rounds.

Each team will play a three-game round-robin within their new brackets. After the final game, the top team in each of the two top brackets will play in a one-game final match, while the second, third, and fourth-place teams in these brackets will play their counterparts in the other top bracket to determine 3rd, 5th, and 7th place. We will only do a tiebreaker round after the second bracket to determine the team that reaches the final; all other ties will be broken on paper.
Please don't do these formats. There are a few reasons for this:

-- 10 games doesn't feel like very many for a national championship event that teams are potentially spending a lot of money and resources to attend.

-- I really dislike the "wild cards" for only some third-place teams. Either you're comparing teams on PPG, which isn't opponent-independent, or you're comparing them on PPB, which only captures half of the skills involved in being good at the game. It also makes tiebreakers really messy -- you pretty much have to play a tiebreaker for every place except first/second, because none of the brackets further down are going to line up nicely with prelim placements either, but it's also possible that some or all of the tiebreakers don't actually matter. You could have a tiebreaker game for third where if Team A wins, they're in the championship bracket, but if Team B wins, both teams end up in third bracket. Also any three-way (or more) ties are going to be a bit of a nightmare to resolve.

-- I also really, really hate parallel top brackets with one-game crossovers. Imagine a scenario in which one bracket has two teams that are 5-0 and 4-1, and the other bracket has a three-way tie at 3-2. You're going to end up with a 3-2 playoff team playing a 5-0 playoff team in a one-game final, while a 4-1 team is completely eliminated from even playing in the finals by one loss. Neither of these are good outcomes. Here is an example of a tournament that used parallel top brackets which resulted in a 7-3 overall team beating a 10-0 overall team in the final and winning; this is not merely a theoretical edge-case concern.

For 30 teams, I would recommend using this format, which guarantees 11 games to everyone but the bottom 6 teams (and 10 to the bottom 6 teams). There is also this format, which extends it by one round and guarantees 12 games to everyone but the bottom 6 teams (and 11 to the bottom 6 teams). However, this format involves two rebracketings and 12 non-tiebreaker games, so you wouldn't be able to reserve two tiebreaker packets and three packets for a finals sequence involving a play-in for disadvantage, if that's something you want to ensure. You'd probably have to break ties at the playoffs-superplayoffs juncture by statistics.

For 32 teams, I would recommend using one of these two formats:
This format is the most similar to the one you have proposed, except it replaces the one-game crossover between parallel top brackets with a two-game superplayoffs phase, making it impossible (if circles of death are played off with tiebreakers; otherwise merely unlikely) to eliminate teams with one loss. This is also the format that would work best for 31 teams, because the high number of carryovers means no team would get more than one bye.
This format takes 12 rounds and guarantees 11 games to every team (it involves prelim brackets of 6/6/5/5/5/5, so some prelim brackets will have a bye). It has the same issue as the 12-round format for 30 teams regarding saving packets for two tiebreakers and three-game finals. In addition, if you need to run this format with 31 teams, almost the entire bottom bracket would get two byes over the tournament -- this is not necessarily a dealbreaker, but it's probably suboptimal.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

Thanks, Conor - I'll look these over today after I get caught up on my missed emails due to COVID and have something announced by the end of the week at the absolute latest.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

I'm closing the field at 30 teams, which is a nice, round number.

We're going to be using the schedule outlined here provided by Conor. If the link doesn't work correctly for some reason, it's the 30 teams, 12 rounds tab.

Additionally, the tournament will be held in Hamilton Hall (1130 Amsterdam Ave, New York, NY 10027).
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

We are underway! You can find preliminary stats here.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

Congrats to our Tournament All-Stars! This was determined by individual performance in the preliminary rounds.

Jason Hong, Brown A, 68 PPG
Joseph Chambers, Virginia, 64 PPG
Aum Mundhe, Rutgers, 56 PPG
John John Groger, Columbia B, 55 PPG
Eshan Pant, NYU, 55 PPG
Cerulean Ozarow, Brown B, 53 PPG
Richard Niu, Cornell, 52 PPG
Luke Zhang, Emory, 52 PPG
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

Congratulations to our 12 teams that made the top tier of playoffs!

Cornell, Duke, Chicago A, Columbia B, Columbia A, NYU, Texas, Maryland, Brown A, Missouri, Brown B, & Rutgers

The full playoff seeds can be found on the schedule here.

Complete preliminary stats are here.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

Post by AKKOLADE »

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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Columbia U (NYC) - 3/2/24

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We are into the superplayoffs, with standings here: https://hsquizbowl.org/db/tournaments/8 ... rplayoffs/

The schedule has been updated with superplayoff seeds.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by AKKOLADE »

Congratulations to Cornell on their win today! Chicago A finished second and Columbia A and Rutgers tied for third.

A bigger thank you post will come in the next 48 hours.
Last edited by AKKOLADE on Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

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Combined stats are now available at https://hsquizbowl.org/db/tournaments/8 ... ned_stats/.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by Tippy Martinez »

I have some thoughts about this tournament.

First off, the format: while I commend Fred for hearing feedback and switching to a format that guaranteed more games, having paired prelim brackets and both a playoff and super-playoff re-bracket is a bit unideal. While this was almost certainly the best way to a run a tournament with 30 teams, it could have easily been avoided by simply capping the field at a more workable number, such as 24. If this tournament is meant to be a true national championship, I don't think it's ridiculous to be more selective on how many teams you invite from the qualifier if it leads to a more fair, intuitive tournament format.

Second, and I think much more importantly, Hamilton Hall at Columbia is simply just not suited for hosting (important) tournaments. For one, we were not able to get into the building until the time that the opening meeting was scheduled to start. I was impressed with how efficiently Fred and co. were able to wrangle all the teams and buzzers at the meeting and get us started close to on time, but obviously not being able to get into the building earlier could cause significant delays. The bathroom situation is absolutely diabolical, and caused quite a few delays throughout the day as people had to constantly fly between floors to try and find an unoccupied stall. Perhaps the most frustrating part, for me at least, was some of the game rooms themselves. In particular, we had to play three of our playoff rounds in a small classroom that was extremely not conducive to play quiz bowl: teams had to sit in 2x2 grid arrangements, with one team being much further from the moderator, and making inter-team communication much more difficult. This, to me, was a frankly unacceptable room setup for a tournament such as this, especially as it was used as one of the top playoff and super-playoff rooms. Columbia itself is also just not an ideal location for a large tournament, as it is expensive to stay in the area and it's not particularly close to the airports that people would by flying into. This is not meant to be an attack on any people in the Columbia club or Fred himself, I just think people should consider the above factors going forward.

Miraculously, this tournament actually finished in quite a timely manner, so thanks to the moderators who did a fairly good job throughout the day moving games along and reading well.

I also did not think the set was really up to snuff for a tournament of this type and cost, but I will leave those thoughts for the proper channels when I've had some time to look over the questions again.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

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Tippy Martinez wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:56 pm First off, the format: while I commend Fred for hearing feedback and switching to a format that guaranteed more games, having paired prelim brackets and both a playoff and super-playoff re-bracket is a bit unideal. While this was almost certainly the best way to a run a tournament with 30 teams, it could have easily been avoided by simply capping the field at a more workable number, such as 24. If this tournament is meant to be a true national championship, I don't think it's ridiculous to be more selective on how many teams you invite from the qualifier if it leads to a more fair, intuitive tournament format.
Out of curiosity, what was the problem with this format as it relates to fairness? I have no opinion on the matter, I just can't think of a reason paired format (which seems like the main less common quirk of this format) would be less fair. The playoffs into superplayoffs rebracket seems pretty standard for a nationals to me, but if that's also an issue I'm curious there too.

I agree with your broader point that at a nationals specifically, the tournament can construct a field size that leads to a good format, because unlike a regular tournament, it need not structure a tournament to fit the maximum interested teams.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by AKKOLADE »

Tippy Martinez wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:56 pmFor one, we were not able to get into the building until the time that the opening meeting was scheduled to start. I was impressed with how efficiently Fred and co. were able to wrangle all the teams and buzzers at the meeting and get us started close to on time, but obviously not being able to get into the building earlier could cause significant delays.
I just got in the door at home, so beyond Emmett's question (as I'd also like further explanation on the qualms you have about the scheduling format), the one thing I'm going to respond to right now is the quoted portion.

The delay getting into the building was certainly far from ideal, but didn't actually cause meaningful delays. If there was no issue with the door, the tournament would have started 5-10 minutes earlier. Columbia also now knows that the next time they host a tournament, they need to send an email to a certain person to set up earlier access to the building as part of the room reservation process. It's an easy fix that was due to a miscommunication issue, and shouldn't impact future tournaments.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by Sit Quietly, Alone »

Votre Kickstarter Est Nul wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:09 pm
Tippy Martinez wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:56 pm First off, the format: while I commend Fred for hearing feedback and switching to a format that guaranteed more games, having paired prelim brackets and both a playoff and super-playoff re-bracket is a bit unideal. While this was almost certainly the best way to a run a tournament with 30 teams, it could have easily been avoided by simply capping the field at a more workable number, such as 24. If this tournament is meant to be a true national championship, I don't think it's ridiculous to be more selective on how many teams you invite from the qualifier if it leads to a more fair, intuitive tournament format.
Out of curiosity, what was the problem with this format as it relates to fairness? I have no opinion on the matter, I just can't think of a reason paired format (which seems like the main less common quirk of this format) would be less fair. The playoffs into superplayoffs rebracket seems pretty
standard for a nationals to me, but if that's also an issue I'm curious there too.
seeding. this is a tournament whose broad outcomes were determined in no small part by which teams were in the initial 5-team divisions. y'all actually did a pretty good job with seeding, given the lack of information that emmett & i talked about in a game room. but on the margin, there were some teams that could have stood to be on the other side of the 12/13 or 24/25 cutoff, and that would have been if they weren't in a pretty easy or difficult group at the start. had it been a two-day tournament with more games, the format could have allowed for more precise differentiation outside the top few. the tournament did seem to do a good job finding the best teams, though, which is the most important thing for a national tournament to do. the alternative is fewer teams—two days seems the better option to me, but that's not the focus of this post.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by liamstarnes27 »

Overall I think it was a very well-run and fair tournament, although I have one complaint with the paired brackets format: Two evenly-matched teams in the same prelim bracket could easily have the same record against the prelim common opponents (as was the case with us and Duke), in which case determining who advances to the top bracket comes down to a half-packet tiebreaker, which probably has too much variance to differentiate between teams of roughly equal skill. I think that in the future (assuming this tournament keeps using the paired brackets for prelims), if two teams tie for 2nd place in the pool, they should play a full packet to see who makes it to the top bracket.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by Votre Kickstarter Est Nul »

liamstarnes27 wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 2:01 pm Overall I think it was a very well-run and fair tournament, although I have one complaint with the paired brackets format: Two evenly-matched teams in the same prelim bracket could easily have the same record against the prelim common opponents (as was the case with us and Duke), in which case determining who advances to the top bracket comes down to a half-packet tiebreaker, which probably has too much variance to differentiate between teams of roughly equal skill. I think that in the future (assuming this tournament keeps using the paired brackets for prelims), if two teams tie for 2nd place in the pool, they should play a full packet to see who makes it to the top bracket.
Good point! I definitely hadn't considered that (to be clear I'm just an editor, but I'm curious about format quirks), since paired formats make teams play a different bracket, you can end up with situations wherein the 1 and 2 seed from Bracket A are worse than the 1 seed in bracket B, but better than the 2 seed in bracket B, so the expected outcome is a 4-1 4-1 tie at the top of bracket A (and as you point out, this can and did happen to Duke and Chi B to determine the all-important 2-3 split for advancing to top or middle playoff brackets). I agree with your suggestion that a full bracket tiebreaker is the best option in this situation.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by Votre Kickstarter Est Nul »

So as not to clog this thread, I'll also respond to Joseph in this post, while also once again stressing that I'm just talkin' out of curiosity, and don't have any impact on future formats.

I don't have much to add except on your seeding point, which we discussed a bit during the tournament; I agree those crucial 12/13 24/25 cuts are important and also made on limited information. Your suggestions seem good to me, as well, and as a non-undergrad who likes staffing nationals, 2 days sounds awesome, but who knows how viable that is this early in the tournament's existence. Maybe in an ideal world teams will play a tournament or two as their UG team in the fall, giving us more comparable data. There's no real way for that to be enforced, nor would I want it to be, but it sure would've made seeding easier. As Joseph hints at, I'm quite happy with how reasonably accurate the seeding was, given how much guesswork was involved (disclosure: I was involved in seed analysis for this tournament).

EDIT: I keep clicking quote, rather than edit, so I have in fact posted again rather than appended this to the above post. I've edited this to reflect that.
Last edited by Votre Kickstarter Est Nul on Mon Mar 04, 2024 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by AKKOLADE »

FYI: there is a private discussion forum here on HSQB for this tournament, which you can request access for via your control panel. We also have the discussion going on the tournament Discord.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War »

Another note I had about the format during the tournament was that ties in record determining who carried over a loss into playoffs against common opponents were broken by PPG, which is unideal for if a format like this is to be used for a major tournament again.

For example, Chicago A and Texas got to not carry over their one loss from prelims, while Columbia B and Maryland kept theirs, despite each pair of teams having the same records against all of the same opponents. This was because Chicago A/Texas got put into the opposite playoff bracket from the teams the lost to (respectively, Cornell and Columbia A) by winning their brackets on a PPG tiebreaker.

Based on precedent of breaking ties affecting playoffs significantly on the buzzer, it would have made sense for Chicago A/Columbia B and Texas/Maryland to play a packet for the privilege of not carrying over their one loss instead of it being determined by relatively small PPG differences. Two teams ideally shouldn't start playoffs of a nationals with different records due to PPG, after winning and losing games against the exact same teams, when the way to resolve the tie on the buzzer is very straightforward.

An addendum to this is that if the seeding had gotten very messed up and the brackets turned out strangely, I think (?) there is a possible scenario where the team with the higher PPG who won the bracket would end up carrying more losses to playoffs than the team with the lower PPG despite losses against the same teams. It may not be possible for this particular 30-team format, but it's definitely possible in some similar cases. I'm not really sure how such a tie would be broken/what would be fairest except that hopefully the seeding for an important tournament doesn't ever result in such a scenario.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

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Subotai the Valiant, Final Dog of War wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 5:09 pmBased on precedent of breaking ties affecting playoffs significantly on the buzzer, it would have made sense for Chicago A/Columbia B and Texas/Maryland to play a packet for the privilege of not carrying over their one loss instead of it being determined by relatively small PPG differences. Two teams ideally shouldn't start playoffs of a nationals with different records due to PPG, after winning and losing games against the exact same teams, when the way to resolve the tie on the buzzer is very straightforward.
This is a very fair point that I did not consider prior to the tournament. It just wasn't a scenario I conceived of possibly happening due to the unique split bracket scheduling. I apologize for that.
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Re: 2024 IQBT Undergraduate Championship - Congrats to Cornell!

Post by AKKOLADE »

It took me a little longer to be rested enough to put together this post properly.

This tournament would not have happened without the help of a lot of people. I want to thank everyone from that.

First of all, I'd like to thank the Columbia team for graciously hosting us. I want to especially thank Geoffrey Wu, who was the primary contact for this tournament and did a great job coordinating everything.

Next, I must thank our set production team, starting with our head editor, Kurtis Droge. He did a wonderful job making sure production was on schedule the entire time and guided the writing & editing of all our questions. I also want to shout out our subject editors, Matt Bollinger, Noah Sheidlower, Andrew Rout, Briana Magin, Maxwell Ye, Dan Ni, John Lawrence, Emmett Laurie, Vasa Clarke, Caleb Kendrick, & Kurtis Droge. Special thanks to Matt and Emmett for going above & beyond by helping with additional tasks.

I'd also like to thank all of our staffers for the tournament: Aidan Mehigan, Andre Wong, Ben Hu, Caroline Mao, David Song, Dennis Loo, Emmett Laurie, Jeremy Tsai, Matt Weiner, Mitchell Baron, Moses Kitakule, Nat Ku, Nicole Leedy, Noah Chen, Noah Sheidlower, Olivia Barbieri, Ophir Lifshitz, Rahul Keyal, Rosa Xia, and Sam Macchi. Especially special thanks to Matt Weiner for coordinating the staff meeting and some staff travel. Special acknowledgement to Eric Douglass here as our token sacrifice to the travel gods; I'm glad you got your bags back.

Finally, I'd like to thank everyone that competed in the Qualifier and at the Championship. Without you, this tournament would be nothing - thank you for competing. I truly hope everyone had a good time at the tournament. I also want to congratulate any graduating seniors that competed at this tournament - your futures are bright, regardless of what you choose to do.

I'm very excited about next year's tournament. I'll see some of you then!
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