Chris McCray Discussion

[Mike Bentley]

You guys are now free to discuss the Chris McCray tournament. I'll be sending the packets (complete with 9ish rounds of cut and unedited questions) out to the teams promptly.

[pray for elves]

Mike, I'd be more than happy to discuss the set if you'd get back to me about trading. Is your email account not working or something? I haven't heard anything from you for a while.

[pray for elves]

Factual error: Charlie Pace was a heroin addict on Lost, not a crack addict. (from "Round 1")

[Mike Bentley]

Factual error: Charlie Pace was a heroin addict on Lost, not a crack addict. (from "Packet 1")

Whoops. And I watch the show too...

[orangecrayon]

Factual error from round No. 9: David Thewlis did not appear in the fourth Harry Potter film. Just Nos. 3 and 5.

[Mike Bentley]

Well, rather than a simple list of factual errors (which aren't really that helpful anymore because the packets have already been distributed for the most part), how about some overall comments about the quality of the questions? I've heard a few things from some people via e-mail, but I'd certainly like to hear some more, especially from teams actually playing at the event.

[Matt Weiner]

The questions did not contain any nineteen-line tossups copied and pasted directly from an IMDB plot summary, therefore they are good

[pray for elves]

From the 2.5 packets I've read so far, there's only been a couple of minor clue ordering issues, so nothing unexpected. The one other thing that bothers me is that the Liverpool tossup from round 1 is insultingly easy to anyone who knows minimal amounts about soccer. It's along the lines of:

"This is the only publicly owned team in its league. This team won NFL championships in 1961, 1962, and 1965 before also winning Super Bowls 1 and 2 under Vince Lombardi. They play on a field named for co-founder Curly Lambeau. FTP name this team whose recent prominent players include Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, Donald Driver, and Brett Farve."

(If you don't know the answer to the above question, why are you reading the Trash forum?)

To head off people, yes, I know nobody cares about soccer and that this is the United States (except that I'm not in the US right now, but that's irrelevant). The point is that there were usable clues, but most of them are far too easy, since for anyone with any kind of knowledge they would be giveaways.

(Oh, and let's please not argue over whether or not soccer should be included - this is criticism of question writing.)

Sorry if this comes off a little strong - know that most of your questions have been very good from what I've seen.

Actually, I'll leave with a general suggestion for anyone running a trash tournament: since Jerry has offered his help on editing questions in small numbers, and since I like playing trash tournaments while he sits growing his beard and doing astrophysics, he could probably help edit soccer questions for you, bringing them up to quality.

Soccer rant: ended.

[dschafer]

The one other thing that bothers me is that the Liverpool tossup from round 1 is insultingly easy to anyone who knows minimal amounts about soccer.

Which clues are you referencing? As the author of said Liverpool tossup, I thought it was fairly pyramidal, but I don't really have a solid feel as to what the range of soccer knowledge is, so I may have targeted this one too easy.

[pray for elves]

The Heysel disaster is very, very well known. It's especially well known since they bring it up during the broadcasts almost every time Liverpool is shown in the Champions League, which is quite often. As such, it's almost a giveaway for anyone who has seen a match involving Liverpool. Peter Crouch sometimes starts for England, and is well known because he's 6'7" and lanky as fuck. Also, I'd think that the manager is much less of a clue than Steven Gerrard, Steve Finnan, or Peter Crouch, as only the real followers of the EPL would know Rafa Benitez in the USA.

I guess the short answer is that it was relatively pyramidal (except for the Benitez clue, which was too late, and Heysel, which was early), but very very easy, so as you said your feel of the range is off. There do exist American soccer fans, and usually they have decent knowledge, with a few of us being obsessive.

The main thing is that all of the following would be suitable giveaway clues for anyone with a minor bit of knowledge: Heysel disaster, rivals of Everton, Finnan, Crouch, 2005 Champions League winners, Steven Gerrard, Rafa Benitez, and your giveaway (Reds + this year's Champions League runner-up). So in essence, everything but the leadin is an obvious clue for someone with knowledge. The difficulty slope is too steep down from the leadin.

My clue ordering for the above would probably be your leadin (which was fine) followed by, in order: rivals of Everton, Rafa Benitez, Finnan, Heysel, your giveaway, Peter Crouch, 2005 Champions League winners, Steven Gerrard. I'd consider it okay to put your giveaway after Crouch, and to switch the order of 2005 CL winners and Gerrard.

"Known as the Reds" might make a non-knowledgeable player guess Manchester United, who are the "Red Devils", so that part is possibly tricky. Also, the 2005 Champions League Final is already considered probably the best Champions League Final ever, and one of the best cup finals ever period thanks to the drama, so it's another giveaway clue.

If it's for a tournament I won't be playing (which is unlikely) I'd be willing to help clue ordering and editing of soccer questions, I guess. (This means you, the one soccer question from the Passner/Weiner post-CO trash-stravaganza.)

(Also, Jerry may not be the right judge on this one because he's a Liverpool fan and as such will know a fair bit about them.)

Sorry if the above post makes less than an appropriate amount of sense; I'm up late drinking and posting on HSQB (I'm US EST +7 hours for the summer). Also, the drunker I get, the more information gets lost in parentheses.

[dschafer]

Okay, I didn't realize that the Heysel disaster was that well known; it probably should have been moved later then. I used the 2007 Champions League as the giveaway simply because of the proximity of the tournament to the game (within a few months); if not for that factor, the 2005 Champions League or Gerrard probably would have been my giveaway clue.

Given what you said about the overall easiness of the middle clues, what would you consder suitable mid-level clues for Liverpool?

[grapesmoker]

Given what you said about the overall easiness of the middle clues, what would you consder suitable mid-level clues for Liverpool?

Wading into the fray...

I would say that any clues concerning historically well-known Liverpool players (Kevin Keegan, Kenny Dalglish) as well as prominent past managers (Shankly, Paisley) would be fine middle clues. Rafa Benitez would be snapped up instantly by anyone who has heard of the team, so I recommend that going in the end. Other than that, Evan is pretty much right on all the rest.

[magin]

Just to facilitate the discussion, here is the text of the Liverpool tossup. Also, as the sports editor for McCray, my preference was to focus on using non-stat based clues, since I really dislike sports questions that are simply compendiums of numbers. So I apologize if the Liverpool question became slightly too easy after the leadin; I had never heard of the Heysel disaster, and it seemed important and interesting enough to be a good early clue.

They were founded by John Houlding, and won the FA Cup for the first time in 1965 under the guidance of manager Bill Shankly. The English ban from European Football in 1985 resulted from a disaster at Heysel stadium, where this club was playing Juventus. These rivals of Everton defeated Alaves to win the 2001 UEFA Cup, and they currently feature right back Steven Finnan and striker Peter Crouch. They came back from a 3-0 deficit in the 2005 Champions League final, thanks in part to a goal by their captain, Steven Gerrard. Currently coached by Rafael Benitez, FTP, identify this English Premier League team nicknamed the Reds, who lost to AC Milan in this year's Champions League Final.
ANSWER: Liverpool Football Club

[pray for elves]

I just wrote up a nice long response with more clues, but my browser crashed and I'm not retyping it. Also, it included a link to this video which I present to you here.

In short, Jerry's right about other clues, and I'd suggest things like past players and managers, as he did, along with things like the stadium in which they play, their club song (in this case "You'll Never Walk Alone" by Gerry and the Pacemakers), although for Liverpool club song is not uniquely identifying since Celtic have it too, so don't make that before any clues which give the fact that the team is in England.

[etchdulac]

Just to chime in as another soccer person, I agree that Heysel is a giveaway amongst soccer people. Something like that tends to stick in the brain. I agree that including historic stars would've been a good option (Earlier ones first, like Ray Clemence or Steve Heighway, then Ian Rush would be the thought from my childhood, alongside the aforementioned Dalglish... or perhaps Graeme Souness).