NY/NJ 2007-08

[Sir Thopas]

The region does seem to be livening up a bit, or at least migrating from questions, so what do you guys think will happen next year?

[SHP Pirate]

I imagine that STUY will be strong once again. I stand by my earlier post that Kellenberg will be strong next year as well. Columbia (NJ) will only get stronger as their best scorer was a sophomore. SHP will be back returning the entire team from this year. Pingry will find a way (they always do!). Then there are the other usual suspects: Hunter, Bergen County, High Tech (NJ). I think that NY/NJ is due for a big year next fall.

[Gonzagapuma1]

I think that Livingston will be weaker next year now that Meryl is graduating.

[dyetman89]

I imagine that STUY will be strong once again.

I'd like to think so, but after a disappointing finish in Chicago...well, let's just say I'm inclined to wait until after PACE before making any sweeping prognostications about my own squad. Hopefully we'll do well enough next year.

I know Hunter will be excellent. Guy has an extremely impressive base of knowledge and seems to continually improve. They are, however, essentially a one man team (I mean no disrespect to Guy's teammates, but this is an observable fact - he consistently takes 85-90% of the tossups), and this could pose problems of its own. But the whole squad is usually quite calm and consistent, and if Guy's teammates improve to the point where they can put up some real points while playing with him, they could be terrifying.

I second Puma: Livingston will take a huge hit. We've only played against them once (at Princeton), but when we did, it seemed that Meryl not only got all the tossups, but had virtually no support period. I'm not suggesting this was necessarily the case in every game, what with the vagaries of the so- called NAQT "distribution", but the 2007 HSNCT stats seem to back it up. Unless those Livingston players pull incredible new talent out of the blue and do some serious work, I don't see much of anything happening.

I think Kellenberg, Columbia, Pungry, and the rest of the "usual suspects" will do quite well, but I do wish High Tech could be encouraged to ditch
and come to more pyramidal, 20tu/20bn events. They knocked off Stuy at Harvard's fall tournament, and while we were extremely undermanned that day, it was still clear that they were a genuinely powerful team.

[ieppler]

After NAQT, I thought that Hunter would be the top team in New York. Guy is obviously an incredible player, and it seems that he is beginning to put together a supporting cast. (A 7th grade math player?!) However, with Douglas returning as a super-senior, Stuy will definately contend at a national level again next year, and will probably be better than Hunter due to experience alone. I haven't played any other New York area teams, so I can't speak on teams such as Pingry, Livingston, or Kellenberg.

Will either of the Manhattan teams be hosting a tournament next year?

[Sir Thopas]

Will either of the Manhattan teams be hosting a tournament next year?

We plan on doing so. NAQT, although I'm aiming to house-write one come senior year.

[Kyle]

High Tech was excellent at our tournament. I didn't know until reading Douglas's post that they didn't play on pyramidal tossups very much; they were quick and seemed to know immediately what they were doing. They were second highest (to Stuyvesant) in ppg, but third in record (to Kellenberg, which was fifth in ppg). Odd results. High Tech could win a lot if they played more often.

[Byko]

I think Kellenberg, Columbia, Pungry, and the rest of the "usual suspects" will do quite well, but I do wish High Tech could be encouraged to ditch and come to more pyramidal, 20tu/20bn events.

So what can we do to help make sure that there are more of these types of events of higher quality quiz bowl in the New Jersey and New York (and sure, eastern Pennsylvania too) areas?

Considering some of the question writing contracts we (Academic Initiative) have accepted for next season, we'll already be putting together a PACE-formatted set that we'd love to have get used somewhere in this region. I feel confident we could put together a second set (in whatever format would be desired) for another tournament in the region as well. Just let me know--I really want to help.

[Jackson_Raj]

From what I heard and saw at 's tournament at DC, South Brunswick was pretty good. Is their team primarily made of seniors or underclassmen?

Are there many tournaments in NJ? I'll be going to a prep school in NJ this coming year, so I was just curious.

[The Logic of Scientific Disco]

From what I recall from my days at Bergen Academy, there are a pretty good number of tournaments in NJ--1 at Princeton, 2 at Rutgers, 1 at Columbia HS, and LIFT on Long Island as far as NAQT goes--as well as a smattering of bizarre non-pyramidal ones (do they still play that Jeopardy-board style thing at Seton Hall and Columbia?). So yes, the NJ circuit is pretty active, if perhaps a little flawed. I keep hoping my former teammates at BCA will host an NAQT tournament, but that seems unlikely...

[Byko]

From what I heard and saw at 's tournament at DC, South Brunswick was pretty good. Is their team primarily made of seniors or underclassmen?

Are there many tournaments in NJ? I'll be going to a prep school in NJ this coming year, so I was just curious.

From what I've heard, there's a reasonable number. Some of them are in NAQT format, and others are in the odd Jeopardy-style game format that Chip provides questions for and that I've heard a couple people tell me about (though I have yet to see for myself). Mike Zinsmeister at Seton Hall would be a better person to speak on New Jersey than I would, but I'm trying to learn what's up there since it's not that far away from Maryland.

As for South Brunswick, I have no clue. Apparently, the bigger circuit teams in NJ (e.g., Seton Hall, Columbia, Livingston, Pingry) didn't really come across South Brunswick at all this year. After all, South Brunswick qualified by winning BRITE (http://www.b-rea.org/brite.htm for info), which appears to be in that odd Jeopardy format. So hopefully they'll pop up more next year, but you never know.

[ChathamNJ]

I've only been coaching for two years, but in my experience, the Jeopardy-style game is the norm and attracts the most teams. BRITE is probably the biggest, there are also tournaments hosted by Millburn, Phillipsburg, Livingston, Bloomfield, South Plainfield, High Tech that use this format for at least the prelim rounds. Now the hardcore quizbowlers on this board will probably cringe due to the inherent randomness of who gets what question, but for the vast majority of schools (my own included) that approach this activity as "smart kids celebrating the fact that they enjoy knowing stuff" it's a great format. No buzzers are required. No neutral moderators are required - just have the coaches read in the rooms. All students get to play on at least half the questions (they bounce back) and can contribute to the team effort. I have some students who love buzzers and hate Jeopardy-style; I have some who feel the opposite way and I enjoy having something for everyone.

Most of the above tournaments do not use Chip questions. I know that Millburn does, I believe that Colonia does (for a 4-qtr NAC format), but I think the others are house-written and BRITE uses the Great Auk company.

What can be done to attract more teams to NAQT and PACE formats? Publicity will help. When I started as coach, I got forwarded emails from several event organizers who had sent messages to my predecessors. Now my school had traditionally attended BRITE and one-two Saturday tournaments a year - we were by no means regulars on the circuit, but I received at least ten invitations. I also received several snail mails sent to the school address, "ATTN: Academic Team". Cold calls, if you will. On the other hand, I never received an invite to Rutgers, Princeton, or other in-state NAQT events. (I did get an invite to Half Hollow Hills and Long Island, but as a newbie I immediately dismissed them as too far.) I stumbled upon naqt.com's schedule and had to search out Rutgers and Princeton, eventually getting responses. If they're happy with the fields they're getting, and I know that finding staff and rooms must be difficult, then there's no need to advertise - which is fine for them but not good for growth.

One thing I do like is the variety of formats. Different students have chances to excel in different ways, and it seems to me that full success is a by-product of being smart and knowing lots of stuff rather than just studying old questions and learning "the canon". Now I have no doubt that the top top teams all do their share of quizbowl-oriented studying and there's nothing wrong with that, but I enjoy the fact that your average smart kid who knows stuff has a good outlet that doesn't necessarily require dedication and priority over other activities that can be hobbies for life.

[dyetman89]

Not sure if everyone here reads the Tournament Discussion forum, so I'm posting this here as well.

Would anyone be interested in coming to a high school tournament at Stuyvesant on 9/29?

The questions would be house-written, 20/20 format, approximately ACF Fall 2006 length and difficulty. I ask, because securing the appropriate space and security personnel for a weekend tourney is quite a chore with our administration, and I would hate to jump through the hoops only to find that no one wants to show up. So how 'bout it?

[TheCzarMan]

From what I remember last year, some of the Pub schools are catching up the high number of Parochial and Private schools that dominate the area. Governor Livingston runs Jeopardy style tournament, a lot of us go out to Half Hollow for their tournament.

Seton Hall Prep should be strong as always, good lower teams. Pingry I think will drop off a bit, most of their A team is gone and I was not impressed with the B team. Bergen Academies should be good, but honestly I think they're a bit overrated on this board. No info on NY teams really. I'd say expect Pingry, Prep, and Bergen to once again dominate the Jersey region.

Of course, my Bloomfield team plans to make a big move. Despite being one of, if not the best Public team over the past several years, we missed NAQT last year and now we're looking to get back into it.

EDIT: And I didn't get to see Millburn last year, only play in their tournament which is a Jeopardy one too. Not too much NAQT tourney's in the area. Their A team seemed to make a good showing at Half Hollow.

[segregold]

There was some girl at ACE MSM, Lauren Feldman, who was pretty good. I think she lives in Long Island. Whatever team gets her should improve fairly dramatically, although who the hell knows where that will put them.

[SHP Pirate]

Next year, Columbia should be one of the better teams in the state. With the loss of Meryl (Jeopardy champ) I am not sure about the status of Livingston. Pingry always manages to field a good team - as does Bergen County. High tech is always dangerous but tends to be "streaky". It will be interesting to see how the season progresses.

[TheCzarMan]

I highly doubt Livingston comes anywhere near what they did last year. That team was basically Meryl with some support from the rest of her teammates, with her and most of the others gone, I don't think B team will come close.

[The Infanta]

With two of our A-team seniors gone, our '07-'08 team will be James, Nik (both of whom you might have heard about at the MSM ACE camp), Kevin, and myself (captain). We hope to do well.

[nurik]

i would imagine stuy will be good . seton hall is usually a team to watch out for

[DumbJaques]

i would imagine that mlk, maggie walker, tj and stuy will be good, i was hoping gonzaga would be as good as last year but after sept15 mid atlantic opener im not so sure ,they ranked below even us

Despite the fact that this is a New York thread and only one of those teams is from New York, the mid-atlantic opener has absolutely nothing to do with how a team performs on pyramidal questions. Also, if you're the current Kellnberg freshman who made the "I hear the top scorer at some tournament was an eighth grader" post last year, you've now broken rules on staying on topic, using basic grammar and punctuation, and not making posts with the sole purpose of stating how awesome you are. If not, I still don't think that a team's performances on the It's Academic format should have any bearing on how we evaluate them for the year, but I'm open to your justification.

EDIT: You broke the rule about not editing posts for context after they've been quoted, too! Come on dude.

[nurik]

does bronx science have a team and if so are they any good?

sorry about that editing thing i didnt realize that you had already quoted , i just wanted to fix that mistake
yeah i realize building up my own ego was not the greatest thing to do

[Sir Thopas]

does bronx science have a team and if so are they any good?

No.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

nurik, for future reference, its not considered good form to significantly edit a post in a way that changes its meaning after youve already posted it.

[AKKOLADE]

i would imagine stuy will be good . seton hall is usually a team to watch out for

Welcome to the board! Enjoy a three-day vacation for all your hard work.

[The Atom Strikes!]

I agree with Chris Ray's point about judging teams based on the It's Ac. Format. Also, nurik, you should probably have some sort of indicator identifying who or where you are.

[Sir Thopas]

I agree with Chris Ray's point about judging teams based on the It's Ac. Format. Also, nurik, you should probably have some sort of indicator identifying who or where you are.

He's the then-8th grader from Kellenberg he "asked" about back in April or May or whatever.

[Judson Laipply]

This "may" be off topic, but seeing as we have all gone out on a limb bashing nurik which should get you all tempbanned like him, I want to know what is so wrong about editing posts.
Bashing someone about their behavior is just as bad as what he did, so don't go around all righteous saying how pompous he was.

If not, I still don't think that a team's performances on the It's Academic format should have any bearing on how we evaluate them for the year

He wasn't trying to judge them, but rather make a prediction based on their standings in a tournament.

Kellnberg

Enough said.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Come on people, this is getting ridiculous.

[Stat Boy]

Now the page is all stretchy and I have to scroll from side to side. No more long numbers, please.
EDIT: It's better now. Thanks.

[Judson Laipply]

I hope Stat boy is happy.

EDIT: In the profile screen, it seemed like it had an auto line break, sorry.

[The Atom Strikes!]

This "may" be off topic, but seeing as we have all gone out on a limb bashing nurik which should get you all tempbanned like him, I want to know what is so wrong about editing posts.
Bashing someone about their behavior is just as bad as what he did, so don't go around all righteous saying how pompous he was.

There's a difference between bashing somebody and legitimately criticizing their conduct and rule violations on the forum.

[Judson Laipply]

Let me rephrase my question...

"What is wrong with editing posts?"

[DumbJaques]

This "may" be off topic, but seeing as we have all gone out on a limb bashing nurik which should get you all tempbanned like him, I want to know what is so wrong about editing posts.
Bashing someone about their behavior is just as bad as what he did, so don't go around all righteous saying how pompous he was.

Nobody bashed Nurik. In fact, Charlie Dees made what quite possibly is his politest post ever simply indicating that it's considered bad form (not to mention against board rules) to edit your posts for content, particularly after they've been quoted. He prefaced that statement with "for future reference." "Bashing" is a laughable description of his (and Guy's) posts.

I take it it's my post you've got a problem with. Here's the deal, dude: We have a rules thread. If you post on this board, it's your responsibility to read it and abide by it. This is something that he (and you, obviously) had failed to do. Several of his actions merited a tempban and it sounds like he understands he shouldn't have done it, which is one of the reasons we enforce these punishments. It should be obvious what's wrong with editing posts for major content ("if you post something on this board, just like in real life, you can't just erase it" and "it makes it impossible for people to follow reactions to your post" are some good reasons). That wasn't all he did, there was also the "did you hear about [me], awesome eighth grader who leads in stats?" thing. Nothing anyone else said breaks the rules and, thus, obviously isn't "bashing" or deserving of reprimand. The same cannot be said of your post. The only one who's being self-righteous here is you.

He wasn't trying to judge them, but rather make a prediction based on their standings in a tournament.

Nobody said otherwise, but we made a legit criticism of that prediction's validity. He understood it, but I guess you're having some trouble.

Guess what, dude? One of the reasons we have the rules we have is so that we can have some kind of reasoned debate that follows the general rules of rhetoric in the comparisons forum. You need to support your arguments, not change your posts after they've been responded to, etc. You also need to not behave like a gigantic ass. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're one of Nurik's teammates, in which case it's also considered poor form to make inflammatory, nonsensical posts "in defense" of your teammate when he did something legitimately wrong.

Quote:
Kellnberg


Enough said.

Never mind, forgetting that E makes my entire argument moot. Carry on!

EDIT:

In case you didn't realize from my post, editing posts to substantially change their meeting makes an online forum discussion impossible. Adding "EDIT:" and making this kind of comment at the end doesn't do that, so there's nothing wrong with that. That isn't what Nurik did.

[Sir Thopas]

This "may" be off topic, but seeing as we have all gone out on a limb bashing nurik which should get you all tempbanned like him, I want to know what is so wrong about editing posts.
Bashing someone about their behavior is just as bad as what he did, so don't go around all righteous saying how pompous he was.

Nobody bashed Nurik. In fact, Charlie Dees made what quite possibly is his politest post ever simply indicating that it's considered bad form (not to mention against board rules) to edit your posts for content, particularly after they've been quoted. He prefaced that statement with "for future reference." "Bashing" is a laughable description of his (and Guy's) posts.

It is conceivable he's referring to the Packet Distro thread, but given no indication that this is so, I doubt it. Even then, calling it "bashing" is excessive.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're one of Nurik's teammates, in which case it's also considered poor form to make inflammatory, nonsensical posts "in defense" of your teammate when he did something legitimately wrong.

The website linked in his profile confirms this.

[Judson Laipply]

I would like to apologize to everyone for my posts . I was not thinking straight because he is my friend and I wanted to defend him.

[The Infanta]

I, too, would like to apologize for my teammates' unruly board behavior. It appears as though they need to read the rules again a bit more thoroughly.

[aestheteboy]

the mid-atlantic opener has absolutely nothing to do with how a team performs on pyramidal questions.

Well, I wouldn't say speed tournaments are completely irrelevant. I sort of see it like "all good pyramidal teams are good at speed tournaments, but not all good speed teams are good at pyramidal tournaments." Seton Hall and Kellenberg certainly proved that they could be good.
With that said, the prelim ranking (and therefore the final ranking, to some extent) is not very relevant because some teams had a much tougher schedule than others.

[BuzzerZen]

all good pyramidal teams are good at speed tournaments

Remember last year when we lost to Quince Orchard early in the playoffs at the Blake tournament?

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Yeah, I can agree with that. NKC is kinda sucky at speed tournaments in Missouri, and we tend to lose or almost lose to teams at local tournaments that we are much better than at pyramidal tournaments (see: Savannah or Liberty or all of the teams we played at state).

[STPickrell]

Also remember there is 'good speed' and 'bad speed'

Good speed is simple stuff like 'Who wrote Paradise Lost?' or 'What author of Areopagitica also wrote Paradise Lost?'

Bad speed is 'Alexander Pope wrote a mock epic, Rape of the Lock, but who wrote the real epic, Paradise Lost?'

[BuzzerZen]

"Good speed" being, as always, a relative term.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I'm talking about all speed, "good" or bad.

[The Atom Strikes!]

Back onto the actual topic, due to both past results and common participation in pyramidal tournaments, I would be inclined that the 4 best teams that we'll see from NY are Stuyvesant, Hunter, Kellenberg, and Seton Hall, though there may be a few suprises in the wings.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Isn't Seton Hall actually New Jersey? Not that it makes a huge difference or anything.

[The Atom Strikes!]

Isn't Seton Hall actually New Jersey? Not that it makes a huge difference or anything.

I checked it out, and you're right. It is NJ. Still, it is in that region.

[TheCzarMan]

*Hopes Bloomfield turns out to be suprise*

Public Schools Represent!

[SHP Pirate]

With some of the NY/NJ teams (only 18) meeting for the first time this season, it looks as though it will be a competitive year. Bergen County, at 9-1, won the tournament. They posted a 4-1 record in the prelims, losing only to Kellenberg, then went 5-0 in the playoff round robin to win the tournament. Seton Hall Prep, also at 9-1 on the day, lost only to Bergen County in the playoff round robin. Kellenberg posted a 5-0 in the prelims, then lost to both Bergen County and Seton Hall Prep in the playoffs for a third place finish.

I was very impressed both by Bergen and Kellenberg. Bergen was extremely quick, but was essentially a two-man team. Kellenberg was equally quick, but very balanced. I still think that, all things considered, Kellenberg will be one of the best teams to come out the NY/NJ region this year. (Of course, I am sure that both Stuy. and Hunter will be impressive as well ... I just have not yet had the opportunity to see them!)

By the way ... where were the other usual New Jersey suspects? Bloomfield? Columbia? Pingry? I was hoping to see how these teams looked this season.

[Sir Thopas]

For anyone curious, Stuy finished in second at TJ yesterday behind Richard Montgomery A, and Hunter lost the third-place match (badly) to Charter A.

We'll both be at Princeton and LIFT, although we'll be a bit depleted at both (the former with 2 of our A-team in the prelims and 3 in the playoffs; the latter, 2 in the prelims and the full squad near playoff time).

[TheCzarMan]

Bloomfield was not invited by Rutgers, and I was never able to get into contact with them.

We will be at Princeton this week, albeit without 2 A team starters.

[BroNi]

I would like to thank SHP Pirate for his opinions about our team. And I would like to return the complement. By all standards, Seton Hall is an excellent team!! We have already played head to head 4 times and have split 2-2, but it seems every game comes down to the last question. Really very exciting.

As for others in the NY/NJ area, Stuyvesant's and Hunter's performance yesterday in that field only confirms that they will be the top notch teams from NY. As for other NY teams, we really haven't seen any of them yet, although a number are coming to LIFT. I am really curious how Half Hollow Hills West, Horace Greeley, and White Plains will do.

As for NJ, as mentioned Seton Hall is definitely up there, and Bergan Ct. is the real deal. If yesterday is any indication, High Tech, Millburn and Livingston are rebuilding. I would like to add Chatham as a team to watch for the future, and we will see how Bloomfield does at Princeton and LIFT.