Minnesota '07-'08

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Post by theattachment » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:18 pm

OctagonJoe wrote:After yesterday, I must say that my own opinion about the field in Minnesota has definitely changed. I still feel that Eden Prairie will dominate, but they were definitely weaker than last year and, possibly due to the format, were basically carried by Michael through the prelims and presumably the playoffs.
I'm trying to find a diplomatic way to say this...

In the round we played (which I thought was one of the better packets in the tournament), I think I got as many tossups as your entire team. If I didn't, you beat me by one. The reason I say this is that we as a team don't get the stats that Michael does because he on his own could thrash almost any other school's A Team. Michael "carrying us" doesn't make us a weak team. It's just that he, through tossup points, outscored nearly half of the teams we played. He's that good. We aren't as good as him, but that doesn't make us a weak team in the very least.

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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:36 pm

Carsten didnt call you guys weak at all, he just said that you were weaker than last year. Granted, I dont necessarily agree with him on it (especially since we're only one tournament in), but Gautam and Trevor were fantastic players and players of that caliber are hard to replace. And while you may be a solid team overall where everyone contributes, it is a fact that Michael answered a majority of the tossups on Saturday. Again, I dont particularly think that you guys are weaker than last year, just not as "even" as last year's team.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:24 pm

I'll try and explain myself well as I seem to have failed to do so last post. What I was trying to say was that Eden Prairie is still a strong team, but in this one tournament the results were a lot different from what I remember and have recorded from last year. In our game, EP got a more than respectable 14/20 tossups, and 4 of those were for power. Last year, I can find a game where it was 11/20 went to EP with 8 of them powers, another with 16/20 with 6 powers, and still another with 14/20 with 8 powers. I am not saying anything to the effect of EP is not a good team, but that EP did not dominate us as much as last year, when we still had Rohan, with only 4 powers when last year the production was much higher. Also, as I stated in my first post, that's all based off of only one tournament, and it was EP's first while the Western Division had already had league play. There is still ample time for EP to begin producing like last year. As for your tossup total, I can't recall more than one or two tossups answered, which would in fact only tie or be less than my own, while Michael had almost the entire remaining tossups. However, I didn't keep stats for your team, so maybe my bitter memory of that game is keeping out the myriad tossups you answered in between Michael's. While I am saying your team is weaker than last year based off of one tournament, I am not saying EP will not go undefeated in Minnesota, as I still believe that to be a strong possibility. I am also saying that EP in a tournament without Michael would leave a lot more up to chance than when Gautam and Trevor were there to continue EP's dominance, which you must admit shows a weakness that wasn't there last year.
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Post by cdcarter » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:08 am

Hello all! Just wanted to rep Minneapolis South High for a minute. I am Chris Carter, captain of B team, and I think our A team has a possibility of making it to state this year, which is pretty new for us, but we are all going into hardcore practice mode in order to do some good this year.

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Post by Canadajin » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:12 am

That's great! I hope you guys do well in the rest of the upcoming year.

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Post by Mitu » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:28 am

I hope you guys do well this year as well. Do you plan on coming to any of the invitationals outside of league play?
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Post by cdcarter » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:38 am

Mitu wrote:I hope you guys do well this year as well. Do you plan on coming to any of the invitationals outside of league play?
We are hoping to, if we can get enough people together on Saturdays with money :). Is there a nice list of upcoming events or email list apart from the MQBA website?

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Post by theMoMA » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:39 am

You guys from South have been coming to U of M practices, right? If yes, it's been fun to see new players getting involved, and I hope you guys stick with coming to our practices.

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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:58 am

cdcarter wrote:
Mitu wrote:I hope you guys do well this year as well. Do you plan on coming to any of the invitationals outside of league play?
We are hoping to, if we can get enough people together on Saturdays with money :). Is there a nice list of upcoming events or email list apart from the MQBA website?
That's currently the best listing for HS tournaments in the area, but there is a trash (pop culture) tournament at Eden Prairie High School on February 23rd, 2008 as well.

I hope you guys practice hard and do well in the upcoming season. :)
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Post by Gautam » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:45 am

cdcarter wrote:
Mitu wrote:I hope you guys do well this year as well. Do you plan on coming to any of the invitationals outside of league play?
We are hoping to, if we can get enough people together on Saturdays with money :). Is there a nice list of upcoming events or email list apart from the MQBA website?
Well, as far as I can tell you, there will be at least one tournament that the U will (very high probably) host. But other than that, there will be some lousy tournaments in town. I don't know your views on knowledge bowl, but it is lousy. Also, any tournament that doesn't use questions similar in nature to the ones we use at practices are lousy.

Yeah, there won't be too much non-NAQT stuff going on; I hope we can rectify that by the next season. Keep coming to the practices at the U - that's what I did last year, and 'twas very helpful. Also, you'll be in the know, and exposed to some quality QB :)

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Post by sam.peterson » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:04 pm

When are the U of M practices? Who's invited?
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:08 pm

sam.peterson wrote:When are the U of M practices? Who's invited?
Practices are from 6-9 PM in 305 Coffman Union on Mondays and Wednesdays. You're welcome to come, Sam. :)
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Post by sam.peterson » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:10 pm

Cool, thanks.
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Post by cdcarter » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:09 pm

gkandlikar wrote: I don't know your views on knowledge bowl, but it is lousy. Also, any tournament that doesn't use questions similar in nature to the ones we use at practices are lousy.

Yeah, there won't be too much non-NAQT stuff going on; I hope we can rectify that by the next season. Keep coming to the practices at the U - that's what I did last year, and 'twas very helpful. Also, you'll be in the know, and exposed to some quality QB :)

--Gautam
Thanks for the advice! Regarding knowledge bowl, I have never played but our coach has a few packets sitting in the bottom of our buzzer box from it. They are multiple choice. I would rather use the Patrick's Press weekly packets than those things.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:17 pm

Do you practice on ACF questions and/or the old packets on the Stanford Archive? Also, writing questions is a way to go. You'll be shocked at how much better your team can become if everyone on it reads one college packet a day.
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Post by cdcarter » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:39 pm

We practice mainly on Patrick's Press and NAQT packets, but we are starting ACF stuff. This weekend I am working on going through all of the ACF Fall packets and categorizing each tossup to make a super sorted packet. Only 6 more packets to go!

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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:10 am

cdcarter wrote:We practice mainly on Patrick's Press and NAQT packets, but we are starting ACF stuff. This weekend I am working on going through all of the ACF Fall packets and categorizing each tossup to make a super sorted packet. Only 6 more packets to go!
That is freaking awesome. Patrick's Press sucks, really, but NAQT is a good starting point to learn the high school canon. :)
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Post by DumbJaques » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:10 am

If you're using Patrick's Press, you should consider DACQ, which is like Patrick's Press in that you get packets mailed every month, but unlike Patrick's Press in that it is pyramidal and of high quality - I think a few MN teams can attest to that. Our website is in the profile.

I'd be interested in hearing some predictions on how Wayzata and EP (and any other MN teams that decide to join the party) will do against the rest of the nation at WoQ. Both teams certainly looked impressive to me statistically, and EP looks quite strong indeed.
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Post by cdcarter » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:49 pm

cdcarter wrote:We practice mainly on Patrick's Press and NAQT packets, but we are starting ACF stuff. This weekend I am working on going through all of the ACF Fall packets and categorizing each tossup to make a super sorted packet. Only 6 more packets to go!
And it is now completed. If anybody wants a copy, you can get it at http://metacampsite.com/acf_fall.pdf. Note that there is some overlap and some outright mistakes in the categories. Sorry about that.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:05 pm

Jesus kid, that's intense. I'm impressed at anyone willing to do that in their free time.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:08 am

DumbJaques wrote:I'd be interested in hearing some predictions on how Wayzata and EP (and any other MN teams that decide to join the party) will do against the rest of the nation at WoQ. Both teams certainly looked impressive to me statistically, and EP looks quite strong indeed.
As for Wayzata, I'm interested to see where we stack up on the national stage, and at least 3/4 of our A team should be in attendance. The tougher competition will hopefully either bring out the best in us or give us a new reason to study harder before nationals. I'd like to think that we could do well, but Mitu and I know there are some great players out east from what we saw at QB Camp.

Eden Prairie will probably still do well, but, as is always hotly contested by others, I still see them as weaker than last year, as I have explained in other posts. While Michael is definitely a dominating QB force, I still don't think his current teammates are better than his teammates from last year, but through the course of the year this could easily change.

It would be nice to see some other teams from Minnesota attend WoQ, just to show that, while isolated from most of the QB world, Minnesota has something to offer. I believe that attending will be an invaluable experience in fine tuning and practicing for the national tournament.
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Post by sam.peterson » Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:12 pm

OctagonJoe wrote: Eden Prairie will probably still do well, but, as is always hotly contested by others, I still see them as weaker than last year, as I have explained in other posts. While Michael is definitely a dominating QB force, I still don't think his current teammates are better than his teammates from last year, but through the course of the year this could easily change.
Honestly, are you trying to piss people off? I really don't understand why you'd be prompted to say that. Nobody has gotten close to them yet this year. They've powered about a third of the questions they've heard and their bonus conversion has always been above 25. How is last year's team even relevant?
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:37 pm

That has nothing to do with the assertion that Eden Prairie may not be as strong as they were last year. He's not saying that Eden Prairie isn't good or anything. Just because they are still intensely dominant in the region doesn't mean they couldn't have been better last year.
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Post by sam.peterson » Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:51 pm

I still fail to realize why it is necessary for him to repeatedly point out that he thinks that Eden Prairie was better last year. Especially when the stats suggest otherwise (so far at least). If he were to compare last year's MNHSQB results to this year's results he would see that so far EP has been better this year. Furthermore, it is not necessary to put it in a way that discredits the rest of Michael's team.

I recognize that he hasn't said they aren't good. I know that owning Minnesota is not incredibly difficult. However, I think that it's lame to continuously compare their current team to their previous team in the way that he has.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:07 pm

Then it must be lame every time someone says that Maggie Walker isn't as good now as they were last year, or when people were saying TJ 2006 was a drop off from 2005.
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Post by sam.peterson » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:10 pm

All I intend to say is that his comments on Eden Prairie were brash and unfounded. Nothing more.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:17 pm

Brash and unfounded is rather harsh wording. :sad:
I think it is necessary to say this when considering things on a national level. While other teams out east have probably been improving, I feel Minnesota has regressed a little from our previous stature of qualifying 13 or so teams for Nationals last year. I think most teams in this state have gotten worse from their play last year, with such names as Rohan Agrawal, Tom Sullivan, James Benhardus, and many others graduating. While my earlier comments may have been less warranted, when considering WoQ and presumably playing the best teams in the nation, I think that how a team did last year in limited out-state play and what they look like now before having played those same teams is definitely important to take into consideration. If you don't look at last year's team, you really have no guidance when considering how EP will perform at a national level.
As for
sam.peterson wrote:If he were to compare last year's MNHSQB results to this year's results he would see that so far EP has been better this year.
I've compared how EP fared against Wayzata this year as compared to last year, and I still see a significant distinction. When talking about the rest of Michael's team, I've played with Igor and seen him perform a lot better than I did at ACF fall. As for the others, I know less regarding their playing ability, but, if I must, I will persist in saying a team without Michael this year would not perform as well as a team without Michael last year. I would not say that this is so much 'discrediting them' as saying that they are not Gautam and Trevor, which doesn't mean that they can't still put up good statistics or beyond that contribute to the domination that is EP. I will reiterate in saying that Michael's teammates definitely don't sit silently at their buzzers watching him in awe, but they still haven't proven to be as potent of scorers as last year's trio was.
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Post by sam.peterson » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 pm

Sorry, it just seemed a bit below the belt to me. Agreed. Minnesota, as a whole, has probably regressed. Yes, it makes sense to compare the two teams if you want to predict performance at a national-level tournament, but I don't think you did it very tactfully. The way I see it, having one strong player is not a weakness. EP's three other players are essential to their success and have been a huge factor in their games so far. Michael accounts for less than half of their points (when looking at MNHSQB stats), so I don't think it would be fair to say he carries them. In my opinion, as long as the points are being scored, it doesn't matter who is scoring them. Balance isn't bad, but isn't necessary. And besides, it's not like a quizbowl player is going to get "injured" or something. The only way that a lack of balance could really work against a team is if the top scorer became really inconsistent or had some problem psychologically. I don't think that either of these two occurences are likely.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:09 pm

MNHSQB, is that the A-set and easier league stuff?
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Post by Gautam » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:20 pm

Can we stop talking about Trevor and myself, please? You people in the league this year have a lot to look forward to, and you can only improve from wherever you currently are. If you think we made a good team last year, then you players should try your best to achieve those standards along with your team-members. It seems like "domination" is being described as the ultimate goal of any team in the circuit; I'll only say that we enjoyed playing QB more than anything, and "dominating" was never really a goal we strived to achieve. Such is also the case for the EP people this year - they are in the game to enjoy themselves more than anything else.

Also, I would like to make clear that none of the statements I make in this forum regarding the performance of MN teams has anything to do with the "official" stance of the EP team or whatever. Yes, I have committed to be involved in their organization to a small extent, and I am helping them out in whatever way I possibly can. But uh, when I say things here, they are entirely my own opinions and I will be responsible for whatever I say.

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Post by Gautam » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:25 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:MNHSQB, is that the A-set and easier league stuff?
bjb87 wrote: The questions this past season were derived from NAQT set 63A, so they are A level questions.

[The are derived from 71 A this year]

The rounds are timed as outlined at the site and consist of a maximum of 32 tossups. If I remember correctly the first 12 tossups are short tossups with no powers and no bonuses. The next 20 tossups have powers and teams get a bonus for each tossup they get. There are no neg 5s at any time.

The lightning round consists of 10 rapid fire questions with a maximum of 60 seconds to answer. Questions the team doesn't get are asked to the other team in a 30 second bounceback round. Each question is worth 10 points and getting all 10 questions in the lightning round (not the bounceback round) nets the team an additional 10 point bonus.
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Post by DumbJaques » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:53 am

but I don't think you did it very tactfully. The way I see it, having one strong player is not a weakness.
He did absolutely nothing untactful. Basically, all he said was that Gautam + Trevor were better than the current three people not named Michael playing for EP A this year (and he seemed to emphasize he thought that was the current state, but certainly allowed for it changing). All this stuff about him hitting "below the belt" or whatever is baseless. Stop doing it. Also, as a general plea, let's not start that crap up again about one-man teams and Minnesota or you'll once make that coach from last year's thread embarrassed to be a Gopher or whatever.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject:
Can we stop talking about Trevor and myself, please? You people in the league this year have a lot to look forward to, and you can only improve from wherever you currently are. If you think we made a good team last year, then you players should try your best to achieve those standards along with your team-members. It seems like "domination" is being described as the ultimate goal of any team in the circuit; I'll only say that we enjoyed playing QB more than anything, and "dominating" was never really a goal we strived to achieve. Such is also the case for the EP people this year - they are in the game to enjoy themselves more than anything else.

Also, I would like to make clear that none of the statements I make in this forum regarding the performance of MN teams has anything to do with the "official" stance of the EP team or whatever. Yes, I have committed to be involved in their organization to a small extent, and I am helping them out in whatever way I possibly can. But uh, when I say things here, they are entirely my own opinions and I will be responsible for whatever I say.
Disclaimer necessary because of constant Gautam troll posts?
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Post by Gautam » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:14 am

I felt it was necessary because there was an understanding somewhere that I am representing the EP team, and I just want to say I am not.
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:28 am

gkandlikar wrote:I felt it was necessary because there was an understanding somewhere that I am representing the EP team, and I just want to say I am not.
Good to establish, G, and I will do the same. I do have connections with the DeLaSalle team, but, really, to say that I am a representative thereof is absurd. G and I are tied to Minnesota now, not high schools.
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Post by theattachment » Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:09 pm

I was thinking about posting about Wayzata's performance against WoQ-caliber teams at local tournaments this year in light of Carsten's statement about whether or not Wayzata would rise to the occasion. Then I thought to myself, "Self, if I do that, wouldn't I just turn into a troll like him?" I then realized that by restricting it to passive aggressive innuendo, I only turn into Grawp. I can live with being Grawpy.

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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:05 pm

theattachment wrote:I was thinking about posting about Wayzata's performance against WoQ-caliber teams at local tournaments this year in light of Carsten's statement about whether or not Wayzata would rise to the occasion. Then I thought to myself, "Self, if I do that, wouldn't I just turn into a troll like him?" I then realized that by restricting it to passive aggressive innuendo, I only turn into Grawp. I can live with being Grawpy.
It is still too early in the season to make any concrete judgements about team performance at WoQ or HSNCT level, much less hurl around insults. What I'm interested in seeing is Minnesota performance at GINVIT and the house tournament in the spring.
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Post by DumbJaques » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:55 pm

I was thinking about posting about Wayzata's performance against WoQ-caliber teams at local tournaments this year in light of Carsten's statement about whether or not Wayzata would rise to the occasion. Then I thought to myself, "Self, if I do that, wouldn't I just turn into a troll like him?" I then realized that by restricting it to passive aggressive innuendo, I only turn into Grawp. I can live with being Grawpy.
Seriously, warning on being a moron. If you want to point out, as a reasoned argument, that some matches this year lead you to conclude Wayzata or anyone else might perform a certain way at a certain tournament, do that but be open to disagreement (hopefully also using my favorite trait, reason). This kind of crap will get you tempbanned. Also, Carsten is absolutely not a troll dude - you are.
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Post by theattachment » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:49 am

DumbJaques wrote:
I was thinking about posting about Wayzata's performance against WoQ-caliber teams at local tournaments this year in light of Carsten's statement about whether or not Wayzata would rise to the occasion. Then I thought to myself, "Self, if I do that, wouldn't I just turn into a troll like him?" I then realized that by restricting it to passive aggressive innuendo, I only turn into Grawp. I can live with being Grawpy.
Seriously, warning on being a moron. If you want to point out, as a reasoned argument, that some matches this year lead you to conclude Wayzata or anyone else might perform a certain way at a certain tournament, do that but be open to disagreement (hopefully also using my favorite trait, reason). This kind of crap will get you tempbanned. Also, Carsten is absolutely not a troll dude - you are.
Okay, fine. Let's do this untactfully, reasonably, and in a three-pointed essay.

The Urban Dictionary's definition of troll is, "Someone who gets pleasure by typing annoying/controversial/offensive words at strangers on internet forums, for them to read." Fine, Carsten knows us. He can't be a troll. However, he is making arguments that are, in my mind, unfounded and offensive. As one of the "replacements" on team A, I find it insulting to hear that, given Michael's beyond general covering of literature, I still don't make a good enough replacement for a kid who once negged seven times in a scrimmage, mostly on trash subjects that I cover in his place with an infinitely smaller amount of point loss. Additionally, his unfounded arguments are for a discussion that is beyond off topic -- they're for a conversation only he is having. Unless I've become totally detached from my team, the only discussions about QB are how to get better, regardless of our national standing or our standing against last year. Our sole concern now, as it was at SOCIAL, is how to score as many points as we can on whatever set we are playing. No one in the Minnesota scene cared about what Carsten is throwing. Finally, people that have no link to Eden Prairie (and, at that, probably could and should have a rivalry with us) like Sam Peterson have noted that Carsten's statements are simply getting annoying. Carsten no longer seems, if he ever did, to be saying that we won't be dominant nationally to make a point. He appears to be saying it to continue saying it. We heard it before, and we're tired of hearing it and rehashing it. Carsten agrees that his statements are apparently controversial. I agree that they're offensive. Others believe they're latently annoying. But the fact that I've met him before makes him not a troll.

As for my statement of how Carsten's Wayzata team is, my playing against them leads me to believe that, if you want to use a lot of tact, they have a lot of room for improvement to even catch up to last year's team. They lost far and away their best player in Rohan Agarwal, but they haven't procured a suitable replacement for him. No one, in the round I played against them, was beating us in on science like Rohan was competing with EP A/B last year. The math they were able to get was because of Shonts' negs (which were still existent last year), and even then, they weren't successful. If we have taken a step back, a point I will continue to refute, Wayzata has driven back to the U of M last December. That's definite hyperbole; I think they are a weaker team than they were last year, but not to that extent. My comment was in response to Carsten's wonder as to whether or not the better competition would bring the best out of his team. As a member of that competition base, I think that considering their performance and the fact that no team, EP, Whitman, Dorman, whomever included, remains stagnant, it'll prove their need to study.

Finally, I would have been happier if someone that didn't write a letter of recommendation for "hard-working players" like Carsten and Mitu to be on Wayzata A told me I was being a jerk. If Chris believes in disclaiming any sort of bias to a program, he ought to have taken that into account before he called Gautam out on being an ex-EP member that's trying to get people to shut up about him.

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Post by Mitu » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:45 pm

Wow, this thread has gone to hell fast.

First off, Colin, there is no need to perceive what Carsten said as an insult towards the ability of every player on EP that is not named Michael Wright. Although I personally dont agree that your team this year is weaker than your team last year, Carsten was basing his opinion off of the one round we played you at SOCIAL, at which, out of the 4 powers and 10 tossups your team got, 3 of those powers and 6 of those 10's were Michael.

Secondly, before you start calling out Chris Ray for any potential bias, the situation under which any such letters were written is something that would take me quite some time to explain, but can essentially be shortened to "My coach cant seem to use reason in selecting teams". He only did so because, as one of my instructors at QB camp, he could best explain to my coach why I was better suited to be on A team than someone who puts up 11PPG in league play. Frankly, Chris's sentiments in this thread have less to do with that and more to do with the fact that you are perceiving everything about EP being a one man team as a personal insult and are spewing quite a few yourelf. I'll try to be as diplomatic as possible and say that it would perhaps be best if you used a reasoned argument to demonstrate your points and not passive-aggressive posts like the one that prompted a negative response from Chris.
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Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:51 pm

theattachment wrote:Okay, fine. Let's do this untactfully, reasonably, and in a three-pointed essay.

The Urban Dictionary's definition of troll is, "Someone who gets pleasure by typing annoying/controversial/offensive words at strangers on internet forums, for them to read." Fine, Carsten knows us. He can't be a troll. However, he is making arguments that are, in my mind, unfounded and offensive. As one of the "replacements" on team A, I find it insulting to hear that, given Michael's beyond general covering of literature, I still don't make a good enough replacement for a kid who once negged seven times in a scrimmage, mostly on trash subjects that I cover in his place with an infinitely smaller amount of point loss. Additionally, his unfounded arguments are for a discussion that is beyond off topic -- they're for a conversation only he is having. Unless I've become totally detached from my team, the only discussions about QB are how to get better, regardless of our national standing or our standing against last year. Our sole concern now, as it was at SOCIAL, is how to score as many points as we can on whatever set we are playing. No one in the Minnesota scene cared about what Carsten is throwing. Finally, people that have no link to Eden Prairie (and, at that, probably could and should have a rivalry with us) like Sam Peterson have noted that Carsten's statements are simply getting annoying. Carsten no longer seems, if he ever did, to be saying that we won't be dominant nationally to make a point. He appears to be saying it to continue saying it. We heard it before, and we're tired of hearing it and rehashing it. Carsten agrees that his statements are apparently controversial. I agree that they're offensive. Others believe they're latently annoying. But the fact that I've met him before makes him not a troll.

As for my statement of how Carsten's Wayzata team is, my playing against them leads me to believe that, if you want to use a lot of tact, they have a lot of room for improvement to even catch up to last year's team. They lost far and away their best player in Rohan Agarwal, but they haven't procured a suitable replacement for him. No one, in the round I played against them, was beating us in on science like Rohan was competing with EP A/B last year. The math they were able to get was because of Shonts' negs (which were still existent last year), and even then, they weren't successful. If we have taken a step back, a point I will continue to refute, Wayzata has driven back to the U of M last December. That's definite hyperbole; I think they are a weaker team than they were last year, but not to that extent. My comment was in response to Carsten's wonder as to whether or not the better competition would bring the best out of his team. As a member of that competition base, I think that considering their performance and the fact that no team, EP, Whitman, Dorman, whomever included, remains stagnant, it'll prove their need to study.

Finally, I would have been happier if someone that didn't write a letter of recommendation for "hard-working players" like Carsten and Mitu to be on Wayzata A told me I was being a jerk. If Chris believes in disclaiming any sort of bias to a program, he ought to have taken that into account before he called Gautam out on being an ex-EP member that's trying to get people to shut up about him.
Hey, cool, drama being brought to the fourms for the sake of drama! Excellent! This is totally not against forum rules or anything!

Let me know if in the next three days you find anything about "How to not get yourself tempbanned for continually spreading drama and modsass" on UrbanDictionary in the next three days.
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Post by aestheteboy » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:51 pm

I feel bad for Michael, in a lot of ways.
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Post by David Riley » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:58 pm

We interrupt this session of Eden Prairie dominance (or not) for an announcement from an Illinois interloper:

I'm not sure what you guys have in the way of a travel budget, but many of us in the Chicagoland area would love to have competition from Minnesota teams. Check out our schedule at:


http://www.ihssbca.org


We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


P.S. Are there any teams outside of the Twin Cities metro area? Just curious.

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Post by Strongside » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:08 pm

David Riley wrote:
P.S. Are there any teams outside of the Twin Cities metro area? Just curious.
At the Saturday meets there are occassionally teams from outside the Twin Cities metro, including teams from Wisconsin, Iowa, and South Dakota. Minnesota high school quiz bowl is dominated by teams from the metro area.

Teams from outside the Twin Cities usually play knowledge bowl almost exclusively. During the 2005-2006 season Robert Hentzel worked to set up four quiz bowl meets, all in outstate Minnesota and all at different places in the state. The meets were intended to allow teams to qualify for Face Off Minnesota, a televised quiz bowl tournament filmed in Downtown St. Paul, but all four meets were cancelled because of a lack of interest.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:14 pm

David Riley wrote:I'm not sure what you guys have in the way of a travel budget, but many of us in the Chicagoland area would love to have competition from Minnesota teams.
I can't say this for sure about any other schools, but I know Wayzata and I think most other schools have limited travelling ability on what their school is willing to spend. Outside of NAQT Nats, if we at Wayzata leave the state, it's likely the money will only be coming from our own pockets, such as WoQ. However, if you could recommend a tournament that would be worthwhile for the cash, I'm sure teams would be willing to consider it. At Wayzata, Mitu and I could discuss it with our teammates and see if there is interest despite the personal costs. For the most part, I'm guessing most teams could only do one such tournament and would want it to be free from conflict with the Minnesota schedule if they were to attend, which can be found at:
http://www.naqt.com/mqba
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Post by DumbJaques » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:00 pm

before he called Gautam out on being an ex-EP member that's trying to get people to shut up about him.
Dude, what? That was a joke man - sarcasm since it's totally unnecessary Gautam would need to disclaim himself from EP because he's always polite in his posting. Gautam is probably going to be working with DACQ in the coming year - I'm pretty sure I don't have any vendetta against him? Come to think of it I'm not sure if any of the things your supposedly talking about ever really happened, but whatever.
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Post by Gautam » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:36 pm

Can you guys call a moratorium on "discussion" until some substantive results come out? Like, at least wait till GINVIT and/or Carleton tournament is done, 'cuz you will have enough data to speculate with confidence.

:neutral:

There is so much unwarranted speculation, and totally unnecessary bickering about semantics.. To tell you the truth, I waited until deep bench last year before I started analyzing stats and see the broad state of MN QB.

People graduate, new stars begin to shine in the summer, people who have been traditionally in the lower tiers begin to put in a lot of effort.

A LOT of that kinda stuff has happened. There's already been discussion on people graduating (cough). As for new stars, I'll quote Andrew Hart - "The individual players have all improved a ton. I mean - Igor, Carsten, Sam [among others] - those are three of the best players in the state who were nobodies a year ago." Furthermore, you see teams like South, who've only started making an appearance on this forum. They're putting in so much energy, and they are committing themselves to practices at the U and such, that they should be among the better teams in the state by the end of this year.

As for a team being stronger/weaker than its predecessors - who really cares? After my sophomore year, three people from the EP A team graduated, and the team my junior year started out as a sophomore, two juniors alternating on the previous A team, two seniors, one of whom was a novice. I don't have any stats to attest to it, but it was a huge hit on our team. Same happened with Chaska and St. Thomas last year (I'm sure you'll agree). Who knows what will come out of it? The least I can tell you is stop worrying about how other teams are faring and worry about your own.

This isn't a place to foment or perpetuate rivalries and such. I am sure you know that playing games is mostly the only way to settle differences on who's better or whatever. If you really want to get to know the competition, start organizing some games outside of the circuit like Andrew did in the summer. And really, please don't pick on people persistently. I know I mentioned a couple of names in this post, but I beg pardon for that. It's extremely stupid to keep piling on praise or to keep exposing inadequacies.

That said, I'd like to point out from reading at league games that Simley, Armstrong, DLS, and St. Anthony seem to have decent teams. There's a lot of people really quick on the buzzer, and there is decent depth in St. Anthony and Armstrong. I didn't really see anything else, so that ends my report.
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Post by theMoMA » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:51 am

So in the fall three years ago, the best teams in Minnesota were led by Rob Carson, Brendan Byrne, and Josh Mollner. Those teams all went to nationals, and in many ways were the first Minnesota teams to be truly nationally competitive. That year, Brendan got tenth at HSNCT doing most of the heavy lifting for Mounds Park. And the thing is, the top Minnesota high school teams out there today could likely beat Brendan some of the time...and I mean Brendan today, not Brendan in 2006.

I guess what I'm saying is that each successive generation has been better at the high school level than the previous. As players are exposed to higher level competition at earlier stages in their development, they have much higher peaks than players in the previous generations. So it seems pretty naive to say that graduations are a bad thing for a program with dedicated players in the wings.

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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:05 am

theMoMA wrote: And the thing is, the top Minnesota high school teams out there today could likely beat Brendan some of the time...and I mean Brendan today, not Brendan in 2006.
Hell, just look at the High School team at ACF Fall.
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Post by klwalton33 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:49 pm

Interesting thread.

First of all let me start with the positive -- welcome Chris and welcome South! Hopefully the rest of this discussion hasn't scared you away. The local QB scene is great. I believe that South is traditionally very strong at KB so hopefully the seeds are planted for success elsewhere. The MQBA site is great for local tourneys, and we'd LOVE to have you at EPIC which is the Eden Prairie Pop Culture tourney on Feb 23rd.

If you have not yet -- please e-mail Robert Hentzel of NAQT. His address is rhentzel@naqt.com. He'd like to hear from you, no doubt.

As far as the rest of the thread... it seems people are taking things a bit too seriously. Suggestions as to "how good a team is when compared to last year's version" are a bit premature after one meet. I do look at it as more of a compliment to how good last year's players were instead of a commentary on any perceived weaknesses last year -- but a fair comparison can never be made year-to-year. It just can't be done.

Was EP good last year? Yes. Were they unbeatable in MN? No.
Is EP good this year? Yes. Are they unbeatable in MN? Absolutely not.

So nothing is changed. Same with Wayzata -- great team last year, great team this year (Rohan or no). One tournament isn't enough to make any fair conclusions yet.

May I suggest a moratorium on any personal attacks, semi-personal attacks, or any negative (or potentially perceivable negative) comments in general towards any individual / school and just focus on the positives? Because life would be a much better place. There's a lot of great QB to play this year, let's celebrate that fact.

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Post by Duke Togo » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:44 pm

klwalton33 wrote:...a fair comparison can never be made year-to-year. It just can't be done.

Was EP good last year? Yes. Were they unbeatable in MN? No.
Is EP good this year? Yes. Are they unbeatable in MN? Absolutely not.

So nothing is changed. Same with Wayzata -- great team last year, great team this year (Rohan or no).
...

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