Missouri 08-09

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Missouri 08-09

Post by johnboy81918 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:11 pm

Which teams will be able to find their rear ends with both hands and a map this year?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:26 pm

johnboy81918 wrote:Which teams will be able to find their rear ends with both hands and a map this year?
John, be nice.

At least give them a compass too.

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by cdcarter » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:37 pm

They will need a hand to operate the compass which will totally throw off their ability to find things...
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:43 pm

Serious talk about this though, here are some teams to throw out there and discuss.

Liberty - they are losing Allie, who was arguably their top player, but keeping Spencer who was around her skill level, and a bunch of other people. If they focus on increasing depth and skill at pyramidal questions this could be a solid team that would make the HSNCT playoffs and be vying for a Class 4 state title.

Savannah - losing their far and away best player Terin, but keeping Zach who can get trash and some other stuff. I dunno, I dont think they will be as competitive this year, although I'd imagine they will still make the top 4 at Class 3 state, and in all likelyhood win it.

Thomas Jefferson Day - my understanding is their best player is returning, but really they didn't go to many tournaments and seemed to be doing mostly just conference events last year. I mean, they may be a class 1 contender, but on a real set statewide I doubt they'll do too hot.

Richland - I think losing everyone on their A team, but they have some girl who is supposed to be ok, and they do go to some tournaments and learn some stuff in practice. I get the feeling that they don't really focus on higher level quizbowl, which is a big detriment to being competitive, but like any team, if they make that switch there's no reason to think they wouldn't do well. In any case, they will probably do well (probably win) in Class 2 because it is absurdly non-competitive.

Ladue - they are returning their main players Marc Prablek and Jack Chen, and they placed 3rd in class A last year, most likely deservedly, so they are coming back with some talent there. However, most of their team is dedicated to debate so they hardly go to tournaments, which is a serious setback in their ability to improve, and their coach quit so they are finding a new one. If they put in some work they would probably be the best team in the state and be good nationally, but I'm not really expecting them to given their focus elsewhere.

Tarkio - like, they seem to be a one man team with Kevin Lang that did better his sophomore year than his junior year, and their tournament participation is very limited, mostly to horrible MOWest history bowls and their conference tournament. My understanding is that Kevin didn't really get used to the longer, deeper questions Shawn Pickrell wrote last year, so he negged himself out of relevance at districts (although I think that reveals something fundamental about their teams abilities, namely no depth). Like, I really have no idea how they'll do, but they need to actually go to tournaments (come on guys, Kansas City has at least some circuit even if it's not that well written, and it's easily reached in a morning from Tarkio, Mound City makes it down all the time).

Eureka - an interesting team. They are losing one good player but returning Abdullah and Kevin who are both good and seem to be players who put in work to learn real clues and get real depth on real questions. They could really be anywhere from top 10 to best in the state depending on what kind of effort they put in between now and then, and they're good guys too so I wish them the best. Also, they have the plus of a coach who is willing to wake up early and drive to some good tournaments.

Plattsburg - 2nd at state last year behind Richland in class 2, and won Tarkio's district, so they may be good? MACA didn't tkae good stats and didn't include grades, so I really don't know how much talent they are returning, plus I've never seen them before.

Notre Dame - this team is gonna fall off the face of the earth this year because they're losing a player who was absurdly one-mannish to WUSTL. No repeat state championship that they probably didn't really didn't deserve for these guys, and I doubt a repeat district title is in order either.

Priory - a team who doesn't do enough right now but seems to be returning a couple solid players next year. Who knows, the only time I saw them last year was at Wash U where they had no idea what was going on (deep knowledge lets you buzz early? SHOCKING!) Really, I doubt they are anything once it comes to good questions, but who knows.

Fordland - returning 1/4th of their 2nd-best-in-class-2-but-screwed-over-by-districts team. They were balanced last year, and their players all showed a drive to improve and learn real things, but I'm not sure how one of them by themself will do. However,t heir coach seems to be knowing more and more what to do, so they should be interesting at least.

Hallsville - returning some players but they need to GO TO SOME GOOD TOURNAMENTS.

Kirksville - losing their player who actually knew stuff about literature and other things, Laura, and losing their longtime coach who seemed to have some crippling policies (no quizbowl until the second semester starts, for one). Ravi, the math calculator they have, should make them remain quite potent on MSHSAA rounds, but when it comes to real games their ability to perform will probably drop off a cliff unless they decide to start studying stuff (Hey guys, read college packets and don't rely on math)

North Kansas City - No, they won't be 5th in the nation next year, but I think next year's A-team could be very solid. Brandon knows stuff, Grant knows stuff and is ridiculous with his math on MSHSAA games, Victor can get some random great buzzes and likes to learn stuff, and Tyler is busy but when he shows up he usually can nail a couple things here and there. That combined with the massive box of good high school and novice-level college packets that I gave them to read through and practice on should lead to a team that knows what they're doing, and they have the added benefit of lots of experience around good quizbowl and strongly defined senses of good questions, something nobody else in Missouri really has at the present. My concern is that they can be prone to laziness at times, but they like the game and like to learn, so I think going into the season they will be the best team out there. Come HSNCT, I think they'll be able to go 7-3 on a good day. I'm not sure what they'll be like at PACE, because often they've been resistant to learning really higher level stuff, but hopefully that will change. Anyway, good team, I think they'll be a bunch who come out of the "one man" stigma alive and well.

Some thoughts on the general circuit - I think next year is looking up for Missouri, and the future looks bright as well. There is going to be a notable increase of both NAQT tournaments and independently produced ones, and I am going to be going out of my way to try and convince as many tournaments as I can to switch from their horrid MSHSAA providers to good providers on reasonable formats. I've already heard of multiple new tournaments that will be good and be national qualifiers. I'm also going to try and work with the 2 teams around Columbia on becoming better at real quizbowl, so hopefully Rockbridge and Hickman can be added to the list of top teams. I have noticed an increase in teams knowing what good questions are, so I think the foundations are being laid right now to making Missouri an acceptable environment for quizbowl, and we need to make sure to do all we can to aid that. My goals for the next year are an increase in 20/20, PACE style, and other well written sets being available for playing around the state and an increase in teams who qualify for nationals, especially the HSNCT, attending (although if there is a team that deserves to go to PACE I will certainly do all I can to convince them to go.)
Anyway, good stuff, and I think the winds are changing here. Best of luck to everyone.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:28 pm

Hey, check this baby out from the MSHSAA advisory comittee meeting this summer -
Academic Competition Advisory Committee

Held May 28, 2008

1. Recommended the following afternoon Academic Competition District Tournament schedule in order to alleviate the conflict between the tournament (currently held in the morning) and the ACT testing date: Preliminaries: 2:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m.

Semifinals: 6:00 p.m.

Finals: 7:00 p.m.

(Approved)

2. Recommended that the standard date for the sectional round of competition be set for Thursday of Standardized Calendar Week Number 42 (April 23, 2009). (Approved)

3. Recommended that the sectional tournament structure (two teams competing) should consist of a “best two-out-of-three” game format to be played at 5:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m., and if needed, 7:00 p.m. (Approved)

4. Recommended that MSHSAA Academic Competition Rule B-3 be modified by moving the first sentence to a new item, B-4, and expanding the wording as follows (new wording is underlined): “The use of prepared materials, calculators, cell phones and/or any other electronic devices is not allowed. If a player is found using such an aid during a contest, the player will be ejected from the contest.” (Approved)

5. Recommended that MSHSAA Academic Competition Rule E-3 be modified as follows (new wording is underlined): “A team time-out must be called before the category of the next toss-up or bonus question is read. Time-outs may not be called once the first part of a bonus question has commenced.” (Approved)

6. Recommended that MSHSAA Academic Competition Rule C-1-a(1) be modified as follows (new wording is underlined): “INTERRUPT: If an individual interrupts a toss-up question and answers it incorrectly, the moderator will begin repeating only the sentence that was interrupted and finish the entire question for the opposing team. At the completion of the entire question, any member…” (Approved)

7. Recommended that MSHSAA Academic Competition Rule F-1 be modified as follows (new wording is underlined): “Half-Time: Half-time shall be an intermission of no more than 5 minutes between the end of the second quarter and the start of the third quarter. The duration shall be determined by a consensus of the two coaches, or shall be 5 minutes in length.” (Approved)

8. Recommended that the MSHSAA Academic Competition Rulebook be mailed to the high schools and junior high schools registered in academic competition via the Rulebook Mailing that occurs in October. (Approved)

9. Recommended that an additional four Academic Competition Rules Meetings be offered in January, in addition to the meetings being offered in October. (Approved)

10. Recommended that an item be placed on the 2009 Annual Ballot to amend By-Law 650 to require academic competition coaches to attend a rules meeting annually, rather than every other year. (Approved)

11. Recommended that an item be placed on the 2009 Annual Ballot to amend By-Law 292, Missing School Time, to make the wording consistent with By-Laws 253 (Music) and By-Law 261 (Speech and Debate), by deleting the first paragraph of the current by-law: “No individual student may participate in more than two sanctioned academic competition events which causes him/her to miss more than one day or part of one day of class time to participate in each of the two events causing time away from school.” (Approved)

12. Recommended that an item be placed on the 2009 Annual Ballot to amend By-Law 630-d, Academic Competition Event Sanction Regulations, to make the wording consistent with By-Law 311.4-c (Athletics) and By-Law 530-d (Speech and Debate) as shown: “A school may participate in any approved interscholastic academic competition event within the state, but shall not participate during the school year in any interstate academic competition event located at a distance greater than. A school may travel to the site of one out of state tournament or invitational meet per year beyond 250 air miles from the perimeter (border) of the state of Missouri, with the date and location to be determined by the local school administration. All remaining tournaments and invitationals must fall within 250 air-miles from the state border.” (Approved)

*** 13. Amended: Recommended that an item be placed on the agenda for the 2009 Area Meetings to discuss the addition of a new Academic Competition by-law limiting non-school competition, including competition with and against collegiate students during the interscholastic season, as shown:

“New By-Law 292.0 NON-SCHOOL COMPETITION

During the season a student represents his or her school by competing in an interscholastic contest:

a. He or she shall neither practice nor compete as a member of a non-school team or as an individual participant in organized non-school competition that meets the MSHSAA academic competition definition. A competition shall be considered “organized” if any of the following conditions exist: competition is scheduled and publicized in advance, official score is kept, individual or team standings are maintained, official timer or game officials are used, admission is charged, teams are regularly formed or team rosters are predetermined, squad members are dressed in team uniforms or a team is privately or commercially sponsored. Further, competition which is either directly or indirectly sponsored, promoted or administered by an individual, organization, or any other agency shall be considered organized.

b. A student shall not have competed at any time as a member of a junior college or a senior college team if he or she desires to compete in academic competition in high school.

c. A student who joins a school team for the first time must have abided by these restrictions beginning with the first day of the current season.” (Approved as amended)

14. Recommended that an item be placed on the Annual Questionnaire to determine if schools registered for Academic Competition favor amending By-Law 640.0 (Season Limits) to permit schools to participate in one interscholastic event in addition to the MSHSAA State Series, between the MSHSAA District tournament and the beginning of summer, under the condition that the event must count as one of the school’s allowable regular season events for that school year as per By-Law 293.0 (Limits on Participation) and must meet the travel regulations per By-Law 630-d. (Approved)
Man, I really do make a difference to these people, as part 13 evidences.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Matt Weiner » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:48 pm

Missouri hates excellence and will actively cut down anyone who tries to do well at anything.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:15 pm

Missouri morons wrote:squad members are dressed in team uniforms or a team is privately or commercially sponsored
next year I will be playing all tournaments as "Rob Carson, #88, of Pepsi MAX Presents University of Minnesota Quizbowl"
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:50 pm

welp

/kicks small rock with foot

/sticks hands in pockets

/sighs
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Auroni » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:06 pm

ARGH MISSOURI
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by STPickrell » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:37 pm

A more reasonable compromise would be to allow teams to play in intercollegiate tournaments while having said tournaments count against the limit. Why would it matter to Random HS if Supergood HS plays in Other HS's tournament or in Truman State's mirror of (college tournament)?

Of course, all would be better off without the limit, but baby steps here ...

FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:12 am

The only thing that does not seem reasonable is Missouri's seeming insistence, given its clarification of the sectional rules (BY THOSE WHO DRAFTED THE CONCEPT), that somehow the top 8 teams still will be prohibited from qualifying for the state tournament. Instead, teams will be forced not to compete, not because of ability but because of random flukes of geography. Bravo!

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by DumbJaques » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:15 pm

The only thing that does not seem reasonable is Missouri's seeming insistence, given its clarification of the sectional rules (BY THOSE WHO DRAFTED THE CONCEPT), that somehow the top 8 teams still will be prohibited from qualifying for the state tournament. Instead, teams will be forced not to compete, not because of ability but because of random flukes of geography. Bravo!
Other things in that document appear less than reasonable to me.

EDIT: Who wants to guess how many times a high school sport is mentioned in this thread?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:34 pm

It is the 2-bit pipsqueaks like you that make throw my computer off the roof every time I read this message board. Of course you are correct, You should simply make up some BullS**t list of 8 schools that YOU think should go to state and the hell with any other school having a chance to compete. YOU NEED TO GROW UP AND REALIZE THAT THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU!

If everybody know that's what happened, then why are most posts talking about the "top 2 teams in each district then meeting again in sectionals"?

As far as Van-Far goes, I have nothing to do with the Quiz Bowl team at Van-Far--I coached at another school previous. Van-Far, like many other schools, does not take Academic Competition seriously, so I refuse to take part other then wishing them well in their matches and occasionally agreeing to read questions. You're right they are not seriously in the competition--they refuse to play a full schedule and do not go to districts.

IF YOU HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH MSHSSA AND THEIR RUNNING OF ACADEMIC COMPETITION, WHY DON'T YOU QUIT BITCHING AND WORK WITH THEM--OR BETTER YET GET OUT THE COMPETITION!
Man, what is up with coaches these days?

Edit: Seriously, what's up with some of these guys? Did certain people who were adults when the Internet came to being just miss out on the whole 'the Internet is real and what you write on it is real too' thing?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:36 pm

Is MSHSAA even worth trying to save? Clearly it's run by frustrated wannabe football coaches, whose guiding principle is to crush any possibility of competitive development because every team deserves a turn to win the state championship, regardless of whether they suck or not. I think it would be more fruitful at this point to try to get the higher-ups to disassociate quizbowl from high school sports entirely.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:39 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:Is MSHSAA even worth trying to save? Clearly it's run by frustrated wannabe football coaches, whose guiding principle is to crush any possibility of competitive development because every team deserves a turn to win the state championship, regardless of whether they suck or not. I think it would be more fruitful at this point to try to get the higher-ups to disassociate quizbowl from high school sports entirely.
Well, working around the chokehold they have on everything's going to be fun. I'm not sure what the best route of action would be to advance from this. Mass e-mails/PR blitz? Creation of alternative events? Yukio Mishima takeovers? (note: last suggestion not a real suggestion)
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:41 pm

STPickrell wrote:FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
When you post stuff like this, it's why I don't trust your assurances that Virginia is a unique and beautiful snowflake where casting in quizbowl with football is somehow, magically, not going to result in what it's resulted in everywhere else.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Auroni » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:33 pm

leftsaidfred wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:Is MSHSAA even worth trying to save? Clearly it's run by frustrated wannabe football coaches, whose guiding principle is to crush any possibility of competitive development because every team deserves a turn to win the state championship, regardless of whether they suck or not. I think it would be more fruitful at this point to try to get the higher-ups to disassociate quizbowl from high school sports entirely.
Well, working around the chokehold they have on everything's going to be fun. I'm not sure what the best route of action would be to advance from this. Mass e-mails/PR blitz? Creation of alternative events? Yukio Mishima takeovers? (note: last suggestion not a real suggestion)
I think reading the forums I noticed a lot of other people disillusioned with MSHSAA, so I think making alternate events more available is the way to go.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:01 pm

jpn wrote:I think reading the forums I noticed a lot of other people disillusioned with MSHSAA, so I think making alternate events more available is the way to go.
There is no such thing as a non-MSHSAA event anymore. Every event that involves anyone who attends high school in Missouri now is regulated by the MSHSAA in some way--whether it be a collegiate event or an event held in North Carolina that no one from Missouri is allowed to attend, or an event in Missouri that counts against the participation cap.

That is the problem with these organizations. Once you're in, your whole life is under their purview, and you're not allowed to get out. It's the quizbowl mafia.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:43 pm

Have you talked to anybody in MACA? I don't know much about that organization, but Missouri does have a coaches association, and it should communicate with MSHSAA on issues.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sir Thopas » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:49 pm

crap why did i let myself get sucked into this
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:00 pm

The coaches on the "Academic Competition Advisory Board" were the ones who passed these rules in the first place. Coaches looking to punish success and institute Harrison Bergeron-style egalitarianism are exactly the problem we're discussing.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:49 pm

The "Academic Competition Advisory Board" is part of MSHSAA. MACA is a separate organization, and it might be the best vehicle to address these problems. Its officers in 2006-07 were:
President: Jeremy Gibbs (Fort Zumalt West)
Vice-President: Al Nicolai (Central - Cape Girardeau)
Treasurer: Don Pippin (Crystal City)
Secretary: Beth McCrary (Lexington)
Newsletter Editor: Lori Chester (St. Joseph Christian)
I've never met any of them, but if they disagree with the Academic Competition Advisory Board, that might matter. I don't know whether these people are still officers.

Missouri has a lot of coaches, and it is unlikely that the minority who care about these issues agree with each other. If you know any of these people, especially Gibbs, I recommend sending an email. If you don't know any of them, I recommend contacting somebody who does.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:06 pm

Jeremy Gibbs is on the advisory board pushing for these rules, and most of the rest of them don't really care.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Frater Taciturnus » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:02 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
STPickrell wrote:FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
When you post stuff like this, it's why I don't trust your assurances that Virginia is a unique and beautiful snowflake where casting in quizbowl with football is somehow, magically, not going to result in what it's resulted in everywhere else.
I had to sign sports waivers in order to play VHSL districts. Luckily, a physical was not required.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by jbarnes112358 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:17 pm

dsfcaptains2005 wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
STPickrell wrote:FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
When you post stuff like this, it's why I don't trust your assurances that Virginia is a unique and beautiful snowflake where casting in quizbowl with football is somehow, magically, not going to result in what it's resulted in everywhere else.
I had to sign sports waivers in order to play VHSL districts. Luckily, a physical was not required.
What kind of sports waivers?

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by jbarnes112358 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:42 pm

STPickrell wrote:
FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
Rules 10 through 13 all seem unreasonable to me as being arbitrarily restrictive. They put limits on teams that wish to achieve excellence on a national level.

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Frater Taciturnus » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:49 pm

jbarnes112358 wrote:
dsfcaptains2005 wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
STPickrell wrote:FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
When you post stuff like this, it's why I don't trust your assurances that Virginia is a unique and beautiful snowflake where casting in quizbowl with football is somehow, magically, not going to result in what it's resulted in everywhere else.
I had to sign sports waivers in order to play VHSL districts. Luckily, a physical was not required.
What kind of sports waivers?
as in the sports insurance waivers that football and basketball players had to sign before they could practice. This might not have been the handiwork of VHSL, and just a scheme of our crazy Athletic Director/basketball coach.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:54 am

This whole thing is a shame. The people to contact (respectfully) are listed here. I hope the coaches at NKC, Savannah, and any other MO schools that take quizbowl seriously know about this or are told soon. If you know anybody associated in any way with Missouri quizbowl, encourage them to send letters, faxes, or emails. Even if they do get sent, this looks bad.

We in Illinois have had the rules go in the right direction the last few years, but stuff like this is always a possibility. The last two IHSA directors generally have been good to us, but at any time I could be told that they are reshuffling, in which case I have to contact the new person, explain what a tossup is (among other things), explain that we are not a sport, and hope that he cares.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by STPickrell » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:42 am

Matt Weiner wrote:
STPickrell wrote:FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
When you post stuff like this, it's why I don't trust your assurances that Virginia is a unique and beautiful snowflake where casting in quizbowl with football is somehow, magically, not going to result in what it's resulted in everywhere else.
Matt,

There has been VHSL Scholastic Bowl for ELEVEN YEARS now. There have been two VHSL Directors and two Commissioners, of which I am the second. IHSA and MSHSAA-style restrictions have not occurred, OR EVEN BEEN PROPOSED.

It should be incumbent on you to demonstrate why the VHSL would suddenly, out of the blue, come up with a cluster of restrictive rules.

I have given you numerous examples of how the VHSL has worked to make the competition better. This year, we are making matches at states 40 minutes instead of 30, and will vote this fall on making the state tournament round-robin instead of double-elim.

You, on the other hand, have given ZERO examples, other than 'everyone else is doing it, the VHSL will too,' of how the VHSL has ruined/will ruin quizbowl in the Commonwealth.

With that said, are you privy to inner workings of the VHSL and/or discussion among coaches that I am not? If so, please let me know via private email.

My point is that these rules are reasonable for MSHSAA. They would be unreasonable for the VHSL, given how the VHSL is currently set up.

Let's go over the changes.
1. Change the timetable to reduce conflicts with ACT. Meh, no big deal.
2. Set up the date for the proposed sectionals. Meh, no big deal.
3. Make sectionals best 2-of-3 instead of one game as originally proposed. This is an improvement.
4. No calculators, cell phones, or prepared notes. How is this different from ordinary quizbowl? Throwing out a player whose cell phone is something on which reasonable people can disagree.
5. Time-outs must be called before the subject of the question is announced. I'm not a fan of pre-announcing the subject. However it is not a 'bullseye' doctrine of good quizbowl in the same way that multiple, well-arranged clues and reasonable answers are.
6. After an interrupt, only the interrupted sentence will be read. An improvement over having to re-read the entire question.
7. Coaches can end half-time early if they want. An improvement over everyone sitting around for a few minutes waiting for 5 minutes to expire (I suppose in many areas, this rule was more or less ignored.)
8. Mailing the rulebook to schools. I'm not sure why this wasn't done before, but I'm hard-pressed to find a reason why this is unreasonable.
9. Offering rules meetings in January. The MSHSAA is making a requirement more convenient.
10. Coaches need to attend a rules meeting every year. Since nearly all tournaments in Missouri are using these rules, I'm not so against this. But again, reasonable people can differ.
11. Thou shalt miss only two days of school. OK, this is a bit micro-managing here. Missing school for quizbowl should be between the student, the school, and possibly the school district. I think this is an improvement for MSHSAA but not ideal.
12. Travel to one tournament beyond the 250-mile radius. This is an improvement for MSHSAA but not ideal.
13. I already stated my opposition to this rule.
14. Teams may play in one tournament between Districts and the end of the year. This is an improvement for MSHSAA but not ideal.
I will add a quibble with the way sectionals are set up.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by STPickrell » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:51 am

dsfcaptains2005 wrote:as in the sports insurance waivers that football and basketball players had to sign before they could practice. This might not have been the handiwork of VHSL, and just a scheme of our crazy Athletic Director/basketball coach.
Players in VHSL Scholastic Bowl have to meet the take five, pass five requirement as well as be in their first eight semesters of high school. Eighth graders can play for the high school they are zoned to without losing eligibility.

VHSL competition rules have no bearing on outside tournaments, an important distinction that is absent in every other state that governs academic competition.

Before the competition, teams have to fax over a roster to the district competition coordinator (players can be added mid-season, you just have to send a new roster) certifying that these are real students who are really eligible to play. Likewise for teams making regionals and states.

Insurance waivers might be for the AD/principal's sake or for the school district's sake. The VHSL policy, I am told, covers teams going to VHSL competitions. I think it covers trips to outside tournaments until states but I would triple-check all around before basing any decisions on that. At least, that is what I was told in 2006.

After that, schools have to latch onto whatever policy their district has -- much like for any other field trip.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by STPickrell » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:56 am

jbarnes112358 wrote:
STPickrell wrote:
FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
Rules 10 through 13 all seem unreasonable to me as being arbitrarily restrictive. They put limits on teams that wish to achieve excellence on a national level.

John Barnes
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All but 13 are improvements for the MSHSAA. Or did you mean 11-14? You and I would oppose such rules put in place for the VHSL. But ... I'd rather see gradual improvement than a nasty fight that ends in a loss and retards progress for 3+ years.

I can see the rules clinics being annoying, seeing as quizbowl/variants thereof are not as changeable as debate/drama/forensics seem to be. I'd rather see new coaches attend and then maybe every five years after that.

Alternately, you could have district coordinator meetings instead of making veteran coaches attend. That way the people running the competitions are made aware of rule changes and it would be up to coaches to keep up with the 1-4 rules changes that might occur in a given year.

I wouldn't put them in the same class as 'Thou shalt not travel too far away from Missouri more than once.'
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by jbarnes112358 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:02 am

STPickrell wrote:
jbarnes112358 wrote:
STPickrell wrote:
FWIW, the other rules seem pretty reasonable.
Rules 10 through 13 all seem unreasonable to me as being arbitrarily restrictive. They put limits on teams that wish to achieve excellence on a national level.

John Barnes
Maggie Walker Governor's School
All but 13 are improvements for the MSHSAA. Or did you mean 11-14? You and I would oppose such rules put in place for the VHSL. But ... I'd rather see gradual improvement than a nasty fight that ends in a loss and retards progress for 3+ years.

I can see the rules clinics being annoying, seeing as quizbowl/variants thereof are not as changeable as debate/drama/forensics seem to be. I'd rather see new coaches attend and then maybe every five years after that.


Alternately, you could have district coordinator meetings instead of making veteran coaches attend. That way the people running the competitions are made aware of rule changes and it would be up to coaches to keep up with the 1-4 rules changes that might occur in a given year.

I wouldn't put them in the same class as 'Thou shalt not travel too far away from Missouri more than once.'
Yeah, 14 also is not good. Do you know the rationale for having such restrictions? Are they trying to keep certain teams from getting too far above the less serious teams? Why can't individual teams decide what is appropriate and how much they can afford? Can a school's quiz bowl team opt out of MSHSAA while other teams (sports, etc.) opt to stay in? Exactly how far does their monopoly reach? Another question: Do independent (non-government run) schools play quizbowl in Missouri? Do private and public schools ever get to play each other?

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:31 am

Missouri is not like VHSL in that both private and public schools are members (the only caveat being that private schools are subject to population multipliers when they figure out classes). Quizbowl teams can not opt out of MSHSAA - if they do, and they go to tournaments and violate MSHSAA rules, the entire school will be banned for a year or so in every MSHSAA activity they do. I guess what a lot of people don't realize is that rules 10 through 14 (other than 13) are actually loosening up current restrictions. The main reason we have those restrictions is that MSHSAA wants to put sport-related confines onto us because they have a hard time understanding we don't play a sport - hence the season, travel restrictions (which I suppose ultimately stem from a desire to not let schools with huge budgets capitalize on that to improve), and all that other fun stuff.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Awehrman » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:51 am

Yeah, 14 also is not good. Do you know the rationale for having such restrictions? Are they trying to keep certain teams from getting too far above the less serious teams? Why can't individual teams decide what is appropriate and how much they can afford? Can a school's quiz bowl team opt out of MSHSAA while other teams (sports, etc.) opt to stay in? Exactly how far does their monopoly reach? Another question: Do independent (non-government run) schools play quizbowl in Missouri? Do private and public schools ever get to play each other?
Yeah, that's essentially the rationale that most schools in Missouri are working from. It's not really a recent trend, since a handful of good teams in Missouri have been fighting against these restrictions for 12 years. The coaches association tends to be dominated by small schools who want to compete without any effort to improve. For some reason even though they think quizbowl is a sport, they do not think it requires much practice and that the level of competition never changes. Like most states, Missouri has huge disparaties in its public schools. Attempting to compensate for the disparaties by punishing teams that go beyond the norm is easier than bringing up the bottom, so that's how schools and administrators vote. No team to my knowledge has ever opted out of MSHSAA. We toyed with the idea at NKC, but were told by our athletic director that doing so would jeopardize all of the school's sports. Those conversations with the AD led to our team being watched more closely than it had been previously. This is why Mr. Allen now prefers not to get involved much in these public discussions. It's not easy being the only team trying to make these changes. NKC tried to stretch these rules to their limits and possibly entered some gray areas by competing out of state and practicing with college players in the past, but we were always worried that other teams would turn us in, or that MSHSAA would alter its rules (as it has done here) to close those loopholes. Private and public schools do compete against each other, and private schools are governed by MSHSAA. Most private schools in Missouri typically do not do as well in quizbowl as the best public schools for reasons that I do not entirely understand.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Byko » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:18 pm

L-Town Expatriate on moquizbowl.com wrote: I view the scenarios being argued here similar to one a classmate of mine experienced five years ago in track. Many might recall Adam Perkins, a skilled runner who was the key to bringing home the 2001 Class 4 State Men's Track title for Liberty and several second place finishes in Cross Country (ironically, the team won two consecutive titles right after he graduated and went on to run for now-retired legendary coach John McDonnell here in Fayetteville, suiting up alongside Beijing-bound Tyson Gay and Wallace Spearmon, but I digress as usual). In 2003, he along with Liberty AD Steve Butler petitioned MSHSAA repeatedly to allow Adam to run in the Penn Relays, which is well outside the 250-mile limit. MSHSAA didn't budge. As a result, he decided to forgo his senior year of eligibility to run in the open meets at Penn, Drake and Kansas.

...

Already MSHSAA's had to make adjustments with regards to swimming, as many swimmers (including another L-Towner, Rachael Waller) were bypassing high school swim teams in order to compete in established club circuits, which provided a faster track to Division I swim programs and ultimately Olympic qualifying events. In the past five years, MSHSAA adjusted the swim seasons and established new by-laws that allowed swimmers to compete with their clubs as well as their schools, provided practices weren't missed and all that minutiæ. It can be done with academic competition.
Note: emphasis is mine alone.

By no means is this ideal, but from my interpretation, it would be theoretically possible that an individual could be freed from the MSHSAA restrictions by simply not playing for their school's team and, instead, "forgoing their eligibility" and playing only in open events. Yes, it would be quite a loss because such a person would not be able to have any connection to their school's team, but perhaps for someone like Charlie last year, it could have worked. Or am I missing something?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Awehrman » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:31 pm

That might be theoretically possible, but it is unlikely that an athletic director would so strongly advocate for someone who was really good at quizbowl. Most of the arguments in favor of Perkins (the track guy) were that competing in the Penn Relays would help him gain college scholarships. I think that a similar rationale is used for basketball players who compete in AAU tournaments. Unfortunately nothing like that exists in quizbowl, and athletic directors fail to understand why anyone would want to do something like this for quizbowl. If Charlie were to have attempted this, it also would have alienated him from his team and coach. I doubt that Charlie would be allowed to practice with his NKC team after leaving MSHSAA. There are few personal quizbowl trainers out there. While he could certainly study on his own and enter tournaments out of pocket, I don't think that this method is worth the effort.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Jeremy Gibbs » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:07 pm

I finally signed on, hoping to understand from where the attacks on Missouri are coming. I as well as other coaches did not quite understand Matt Weiner's e-mail the other day.

From what I am getting out of this discussion, the main concern is #13 which was put in place to make sure members were competing with their own team. The question was raised, "Do we want to allow individual students to go to college tournaments by themselves?" The answer wasn't so much, "Yes, we don't ever want Missouri to be any good," but more along the lines, "I think we want to promote team competition." I think we are all in favor of individuals and teams improving. I have been greatful for what Charles has taught me in how to prepare my team.

I just think the attacks were a little over the top and I look forward to a healthy discussion on how we can make Missouri quiz bowl great.

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:41 pm

Here the issue, Jeremy: there's a big difference between "promoting team competition" and "completely eliminating the option to compete individually." How is it beneficial to declare that players can't even compete in such a large number of events if they so wish?

For quick reference, the MSHSAA's definition of an academic competition is "be characterized as competition in which subject matter in multiple academic disciplines is used. This activity features head to head academic team competition, quick response answers, time limits on questions and use of recognition systems by participants. Note: The current Academic Competition disciplines are: science, mathematics, social studies, literature, fine arts /performing arts, language arts, and miscellaneous/ vocational education."
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:55 pm

Jeremy Gibbs wrote:The question was raised, "Do we want to allow individual students to go to college tournaments by themselves?" The answer wasn't so much, "Yes, we don't ever want Missouri to be any good," but more along the lines, "I think we want to promote team competition." I think we are all in favor of individuals and teams improving.
I think the reading most of us have of that rule is that no student, whether along with the rest of his high school team or alone, may participate in a college or open competition. (If you changed the wording to "a student, without his high school teammates" or whatever, this would no longer be the case.) I don't see how this rule, as written, promotes team competition; rather, it bars all collegiate or open competition.

I can see a legitimate argument suggesting that teams should play together (or do so as much as possible), so first I'll address the rule as written, which I understand to make it impossible for any MSHSAA participant to compete with college teams as well, even together.
  • 1. How can you correctly diagnose the situation? Perhaps a team would want to play together at an open competition (which is acceptable per the motivation you established) but some members, or all but one, would get sick. Do we punish the individual, assuming that he is attending alone out of rank individualism?

    2. This goes to another question: how will you ever be able to enforce this rule? I only attended one college-level tournament in my high school career, and I played as "Burnt Norton," one of Eliot's Four Quartets. If you managed to figure out that that was me, then you'd deserve to ban me from competition--but honestly, how could you? Hell, I could have played as someone else and you'd neither know nor suspect that I was there. Hell, I could have played as Charlie and gotten him in trouble.

    3. The other question is: what's bad about individual players wanting to get better? In my high school career, I played with a total of probably a dozen teammates, and only two of them ever studied seriously. It's regrettable that sometimes players have to improve themselves and just pray that their teammates will get motivated too, but why hold a program back to the strength of its weakest link instead of its strongest? Charlie has done an incredible amount for Missouri quiz bowl, and he'd be a strong player even if he never played a college tournament, but he'd be nowhere near the player that he is. If you want a Charlie Dees in your future, you don't want to do this.
Even if it ends up being a rule that just ensures that the same team competes at all competitions, including open/collegiate ones, I have a couple of objections:
  • 1. What distinguishes non-MSHSAA (ex. NAQT) competition from college competition?

    2. Are teams currently bound to have the same lineup at all competitions, including ones not directly affiliated with the state series (or whatever you call it, forgive my ignorance). If not, why are they bound to have some set lineup here?

    3. To truly promote team competition you'd have to force the same team to compete at every quiz bowl competition anywhere. This is obviously infeasible (and a really bad idea to boot): what if a team returns one player and slowly builds up a team through the year? Variable lineups are a reality and just as detrimental to "team competition" as one individual attending a tournament his teammates choose not to attend.
I appreciate your willingness to air your motivation for instituting this rule candidly; it's very important that we be able to discuss this openly, since Missouri quiz bowl has a lot of potential that it really ought to tap, and one of the ways to do so is by striking that rule 13 (and a few others, but since 13 is an addition, you're probably less ideologically married to it).

Feel free to respond to me in public or in private.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:28 pm

Thanks for posting here, Jeremy. I'm pretty much your Illinois counterpart.

In addition to the control of independent competition, I think you should be careful about controlling travel distances and time missed from school. The 250 mile radius from Missouri seems to just miss Chicago, which is unfortunate because that's where a lot of tournaments are. Also, since the two population centers in Missouri are far apart, I can imagine situations where a team would want to leave before the last class period on Friday to drive to a Saturday tournament so that they can get there at a decent time Friday evening. I don't know how much control you have over these limitations, but I would be very weary of them.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Awehrman » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:38 pm

2. This goes to another question: how will you ever be able to enforce this rule? I only attended one college-level tournament in my high school career, and I played as "Burnt Norton," one of Eliot's Four Quartets. If you managed to figure out that that was me, then you'd deserve to ban me from competition--but honestly, how could you? Hell, I could have played as someone else and you'd neither know nor suspect that I was there. Hell, I could have played as Charlie and gotten him in trouble.
I'll just respond to this point. As I alluded to above, if you were to do this in Missouri you very well might not get caught, but if you did, you, your team, and your school would face sanctions from MSHSAA. I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for having my quizbowl team disqualified or even having the football season canceled. As silly as that sounds these are the sort of penalties mentioned when people in Missouri bring up these sorts of arguments. When I was at NKC I wanted to play in college events too, but I didn't for these reasons. I did, however, travel to a number of college tournaments just to watch or to moderate. I particpated in informal practices with my brother's Arkansas team before and after the tournaments. Even practicing with college teams was frowned upon, but we figured they could not penalize me for practicing with my brother any more than could stop high school basketball players from playing pick-up games with college players.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Awehrman » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:53 pm

It should be noted that the 250 mile limit prohibits travel more than 250 miles from Missouri's border. If you measure as the crow flies from Athens, MO, in the far Northeastern part of the state it's 230 miles to Wilmette, IL, so Chicago is within range but barely. NKC has never gone to Chicago for a non-national tournament, but it is theoretically possible. The wording of this rule is why NKC can travel to Vanderbilt's tournament without penalties even though it is 500 miles from Kansas City. We are fortunate that Missouri is so centrally located, but few teams ever try to venture out of the state at all. The new rules allowing for one tournament out of this radius and one tournament after districts and after state are a move in the right direction even if they are still restrictive.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:45 pm

Awehrman wrote:We are fortunate that Missouri is so centrally located
...in the middle of nowhere. You can just barely play in Chicago and cannot play anywhere along the East Coast. I don't want to start another asinine "which state is best?" rant but there's a significant dearth of good quizbowl in each of the states bordering Missouri -- including Illinois, as most of the tournaments near Missouri would be in Southern Illinois.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Awehrman » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:04 pm

I was implying that we were fortunate because the 250 mile rule doesn't not hinder Missouri teams as much as it might in other states, especially those west of the Mississippi. While there is not the high level of play that is found in other parts of the country, when I was at NKC we drove to regular season tournaments in Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Tennessee. There is quizbowl (sometimes good quality, sometimes not) in these places, but many times their states are even more restrictive than Missouri. The tournaments we attended in Kansas and Nebraska (both of which no longer exist to my knoweledge) had over 75 teams participating. Although Missouri borders eight states, most teams have never tried to compete beyond Missouri's borders. While Missouri cannot fix its location, teams should seek any opportunity to play against different teams and try to introduce them to good quizbowl and good play.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:43 pm

Awehrman wrote:
2. This goes to another question: how will you ever be able to enforce this rule? I only attended one college-level tournament in my high school career, and I played as "Burnt Norton," one of Eliot's Four Quartets. If you managed to figure out that that was me, then you'd deserve to ban me from competition--but honestly, how could you? Hell, I could have played as someone else and you'd neither know nor suspect that I was there. Hell, I could have played as Charlie and gotten him in trouble.
I'll just respond to this point. As I alluded to above, if you were to do this in Missouri you very well might not get caught, but if you did, you, your team, and your school would face sanctions from MSHSAA. I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for having my quizbowl team disqualified or even having the football season canceled. As silly as that sounds these are the sort of penalties mentioned when people in Missouri bring up these sorts of arguments. When I was at NKC I wanted to play in college events too, but I didn't for these reasons.
I acknowledge that the penalties are potentially pretty damn serious--I understand that much. It's not something where being caught is an option. But would the MSHSAA interrogate everyone who attended a tournament to make sure that Eric Mukherjee was actually in attendance and wasn't an alias for the best player on, like, Liberty? Or what if Liberty's best player decides to travel to a college tournament and plays as NKC's top player--how do you know that you shouldn't investigate that and make sure that the high school player on stat sheets is, in fact, that person?

There's no way for the MSHSAA to enforce this rule without planting bugs on all participants, and that's creepy.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Awehrman » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:12 pm

You're right that MSHSAA as an organization would have no clue if a player or players were to compete at a college tournament under a different name. As you know, they're pretty clueless about this quizbowl stuff. Nevertheless if that player were to tell someone else (or post on the message boards or Facebook, etc), and another player out of jealousy or spite (lots of that around) were to find out and tell his or her coach and then that coach reported it, MSHSAA might investigate the matter. Most of the state supports MSHSAA and would be eager to report violations of its rules especially against high-powered players and teams. Somebody might be able to get away with it if done quietly and sparingly, but it's still probably not worth the risk. It's probably better to lobby for the rule to be lifted, play in lots of good tournaments, study college packets, and wait it out until they too are eligible to compete in the glorious world of college quizbowl.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Jeremy Gibbs » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:03 pm

I certainly appreciate the comments here and am certainly willing to learn whatever I can learn from other states.

It is true that most of our 400+ schools have no interest in attending any tournaments outside of the state. I do see your arguements for allowing travel.

I would be interested in hearing what the policies are in other states such as Illinois and others represented here.

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:21 am

Awehrman wrote:It's probably better to lobby for the rule to be lifted, play in lots of good tournaments, study college packets, and wait it out until they too are eligible to compete in the glorious world of college quizbowl.
Well, sure. I'm saying that the rule ought to be lifted precisely because it's either unenforceable or enforceable only through personal spite, coach politics, and pettiness.
Jeremy Gibbs wrote:I would be interested in hearing what the policies are in other states such as Illinois and others represented here.
This isn't an entirely bad idea (because other states have policies that I find better, if not wonderful), but I'd caution you to do what's right, not just what other states have done. Be amenable to other states' good ideas but don't be afraid to stay away from the crappy ones.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by First Chairman » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:36 am

Jeremy Gibbs wrote:I would be interested in hearing what the policies are in other states such as Illinois and others represented here.
This isn't an entirely bad idea (because other states have policies that I find better, if not wonderful), but I'd caution you to do what's right, not just what other states have done. Be amenable to other states' good ideas but don't be afraid to stay away from the crappy ones.
I can speak that for North Carolina and Ohio, to my knowledge, the official policy is to not have a policy limiting participation at all. If we want teams in NC to do better on a national level, it makes no sense to just limit their participation to the state, given that it's sandwiched between two quiz bowl rich areas of the nation. Now, we don't have a lot of teams that will travel, so any imposition of a travel limit outside the state would penalize the strong teams that have a tendency to do well in representing our state and region at national events. Ohio doesn't travel as much either unless it's to bordering states (MI, PA), but I think that changes occasionally.

I think the entire VA-MD-DC area has no policy either (Shawn can correct me about VHSL's stance), but that's also because we don't have a governing body that would penalize schools for traveling. To my knowledge, none of the traditional, national power areas of quiz bowl has adopted a travel limit or punitive sanctions for teams that travel to other tournaments. The only states I have heard that have such policies are heartland Midwestern teams in Kansas and Missouri.

On the issue of playing in college competitions as a high school team, no rules prohibiting this exist to my knowledge for the entire east coast. Otherwise Thomas Jefferson Sci Tech (VA) would have a lot of explaining to do a few years ago. Basically put, the business ethics surrounding athletics do not apply for academic competition and quiz bowl; there is no questionable practice where Princeton is having high school freshman quiz bowl stars in South Carolina verbally commit to being a quiz bowl player at Princeton... for example.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by The Atom Strikes! » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:13 am

It seems as though one of the best arguments to use against the MHSSA's limits and travel ban policy would simply be to point out how it limits the state's teams from achieving their full potential at national competitions. Given their population, the restrictive midwestern states are heavily underrepresented in the playoffs at the real national competitions, especially compared to the Quizbowl-libertarian Mid-Atlantic. Perhaps a desire to have local teams beat out-of-staters could trump some of the petty jealousies that are driving these policies.
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