Illinois '08-'09

[Stained Diviner]

The format is essentially set by the Advisory Committee which I linked to above. It meets once per year, typically in April. Three of the people (Chicago and the two Southerners) have just been appointed, and the other four were at the meeting a few months ago. Anything approved by the Advisory Committee must in turn be approved by the IHSA Legislative Committee which governs everything the IHSA does, which generally consists of principals who have never seen a Scholastic Bowl match. They generally rubber stamp anything that doesn't involve season limitations or money, and Ron McGraw has the power to deem some rules passed by the Advisory Committee as too unimportant to take up the Legislative Committee's time and just implement them. McGraw runs the Advisory Committee meetings, and he and his secretary are in charge of taking care of logistical issues such as finding hosts, assigning teams to Regionals and Sectionals, and mediating arguments. Pretty much anybody can put issues on the Advisory Committee's agenda by sending a letter to McGraw. The meetings are not open--typically about five people get invited to be part of the discussion because of a particular role they play, such as the IHSSBCA Chair (me), the people who help run the State Finals in Peoria (Grierson/Rathbun/Baricevic), and the person who runs IESA (Jr High) Scholastic Bowl. Spectators/students are not welcome.

The question writers are chosen by the Head Editor, who is selected by McGraw. I don't know whether or not it is appropriate for me to publicly state who it is, since the IHSA wants to protect her and wants comments/complaints sent to them. Until 2000, one person wrote all the questions and did a very bad job at it. For two or three years after that, the Head Editor was Egan. It's been the same person since then. I often send her suggestions on who to pick, and she often takes my suggestions. Most of the people I suggest have written at the college level. There are also a few retired coaches she uses who still have a 1990s mindset that were not suggested by me (and it's possible that some of the retired coaches write good questions--I don't know the details). The complete list of writers is a secret--I don't know the whole list by a long shot. I know that there always have been problems with many of the writers missing deadlines, dropping out at the last minute, or hating each other's questions (sometimes for valid reasons), but I'm out of the loop.

I am the Chair of IHSSBCA--as such, I handle a lot of the logistics (with a lot of help) and am the only person allowed to speak for the organization (though not everything I say here is speaking for the organization). Major decisions are made by a Steering Committee which meets four times per year, twice in person and twice in internet chat rooms. Generally speaking, we do not set rules or mediate disputes, since that is the IHSA's job. We try to promote Scholastic Bowl through the projects listed on the bottom of the Steering Committee link. As the IHSSBCA Chair, I know that any suggestion made by me will be taken seriously by McGraw, and we have a positive relationship, but anything that gets voted down by either IHSA Committee is dead for at least a year.

There are a lot of tournaments and conferences in Illinois (about 50 of each), and they do what they want. They generally follow IHSA rules (except for matching tops, incomplete team DQs, and match length), but they don't have to--if somebody wants to eliminate math questions or go to ACF-style bonuses, they don't need permission from anybody (though it is good form to tell teams what you are doing before they register). They order questions from any source they want or write their own. There actually are IHSA rules stating that academic, pyramidal questions should be used, though many tournaments and conferences ignore them.

(Page 4. Maybe we should rename this thread 1,000,000 Posts On Illinois Scholastic Bowl.)

[vcuEvan]

My interpretation (well, really, my opinion carefully projected onto Mr. Reinstein) is that the IHSA does not force you to choose one-liner tournaments over Earlybird or Wash U or anything else. We at Auburn played what seemed like our fullest schedule ever, and we didn't play a single tournament with bad questions...until the state series. So really, the IHSA forces us to deal with their often-bad questions in order to win the title that they offer and that has the heft of their name behind it.

If I were playing in Illinois this would be my strategy as well. Play as many good tournaments as you can reach, practice on high quality questions, and the state series should be an afterthought. Although it's obviously not as bad in Virginia, it's a similar situation. The school really only cares about the TV show and VHSL. While skipping it isn't really an option, we didn't really practice for it and when there was a real tournament on the same day as regionals, the B team went to regionals.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Yeah, this was basically how NKC treated MSHSAA the last year. We would try to get to every decently written tournament that we could reasonably get to within our rules, and we would only send partial teams for the most part to poorer tournaments that were close. Also, I went out of my way to go to a couple college tournaements relatively secretly, which is something I think a lot of Illinois players could really benefit from if they were to do. In practice almost all we would read were decent (NAQT, PACE, and other low level college and good high school) questions, and on my own I read a lot of higher level questions (ACF regionals and nationals type sets). I think if more teams were to adopt these strategies, along with specialization of skills, which was something NKC had a problem with, I think all of you guys could do really well, and you already have the advantage of a larger number of decent tournaments in driving distance. All your top level teams for the most part already do this, so I would just advocate doing it for everyone else who reads this thread and is unsure how to spend their time preparing for quizbowl.

[millionwaves]

Also, I went out of my way to go to a couple college tournaements relatively secretly, which is something I think a lot of Illinois players could really benefit from if they were to do.

This seems a good time to note that UIUC is hosting a collegiate tournament, EFT, on October 4th. The questions are designed to be very accessible to collegiate novices, yet deep and challgneing, so they'd probably make for a very enjoyable experience for good high school teams, in addition to providing the benefits that Charlie alludes to above (namely, that playing on good, challenging pyramidal questions is a terrific way to get better at quizbowl). We're attempting to get some high school teams down to it, so if you're interested, you might contact Tournament Director Donald Taylor at dtaylor[four - replace this with the numeral]@uiuc.edu.

As a side note of interest, there is an IHSA rule against athletic teams participating in collegiate events. David Riley of Loyola is currently investigating whether this applies to Scholastic Bowl teams as well. Mr. Riley, once you find out, would you mind posting the information here?

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

Tryg - I don't know if HS teams can play collegiate events, but I do know this - make sure that at no point during EFT a high school player is on a chimaera team.

Even if they CAN play collegiate tournaments, they must play with players from their own high school and no one else. Or the IHSA gets growly.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Greg, that was my point about doing it secretly. As evidenced by MUT, it is very easy to do something like enter a chimera team, play under some fake names, and then pretend like you weren't on the team as long as the TD agrees on it. I played at college tournaments on chimera teams, and if MSHSAA were to have found out I most certainly would have gotten my school banned by them, but I never played under my school name and I didn't have my last name on there. I can't imagine it would be hard to keep IHSA in the dark if Trygve entered fake names for high schoolers.

[Matt Weiner]

1) The IHSA doesn't care what you do at non-IHSA events.

2) The IHSA will penalize you if, on your own time, you participate in a non-high school event, in which you do not claim to represent your school, which isn't even a high school tournament, and does not fit the IHSA definition of Scholastic Bowl.

Which is it?

[Irreligion in Bangladesh]

1) The IHSA doesn't care what you do at non-IHSA events.

2) The IHSA will penalize you if, on your own time, you participate in a non-high school event, in which you do not claim to represent your school, which isn't even a high school tournament, and does not fit the IHSA definition of Scholastic Bowl.

Which is it?

The IHSA doesn't care what you do at non-IHSA events, unless it is an action that, if it were done by a football player, would cause the NCAA to intervene.

[Stained Diviner]

The IHSA doesn't care what you do at non-IHSA events that are for high school students.
The IHSA does have rules designed for athletes that prohibits students from playing with or against college teams. We are trying to find out if those rules apply to Scholastic Bowl. It would be bad if they did.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Right, that is my point about playing under fake names under a fake school name.

[First Chairman]

Just wondering... but if the rules under which a high school team played a college team did not conform to the definition of Scholastic Bowl (such as 5-on-5, or question distribution not being 20% math), would that still be an issue? Is the singles Scholastic Bowl event governed as an activity under IHSA? I wouldn't think it would.

Hypothetical: if magically IHSA decided to redefine Scholastic Bowl to be something like ACF format, would this make it MORE difficult for high school teams that are really "that good" to play in a scrimmage or open tournament against college novice teams?

Another point I think for Matt: the rules on IHSA scholastic bowl also restrict the dates when "scholastic bowl" is meant to be played... so outside of those dates, you're okay?

[Siverus Snape]

I'm starting to feel like we're all trying to decipher the vague, obscure murmurings of a deranged oracle.

[Stained Diviner]

This is messy, which is why Riley decided to run it by the IHSA. The way the rules are written, we might be able to make the argument that, since EFT is 4-on-4, it is not Scholastic Bowl, and therefore anybody should be able to play in it. (Question distribution does not matter.) Also, looking at the law, it contains the word 'athletic', which hopefully means that it does not apply to us.

One of the relevant by-laws is: "Students or teams at member schools shall not be permitted to participate on, practice with or compete against any college, junior college or university athletic team. This restriction shall apply in all situations, regardless of the competitive structure or sponsor of the competing entities for such events."

Teams are limited to 18 events during the season (late August through late March) and 1 event outside the season, but only 5-on-5 events count towards those limits. Therefore, Scobol Solo, like NSC, does not count. The 5-on-5 bit saves us from ever really having a situation where the limits matter.

[STPickrell]

Luckily, no one in Virginia uses the VHSL format in their own tournament, or has a quizbowl team subject to VHSL strictures for other events (though if other states are any guide, these horrors are coming). In Illinois, you do use the format for most tournaments, which is a problem.

Matt, you've been predicting doom for independent quizbowl in Virginia pretty much since the VHSL began sponsoring Scholastic Bowl. You've also been predicting the VHSL will begin implementing the restrictive rules of other states.

The state tournament is now allowing 40 minutes per match so questions can stay their current length (as opposed to being told, 'make your questions shorter.') The Advisory Committee also approved the idea of making the state tournament a round-robin, and we will be lobbying coaches to approve this measure.

In the eight years I have been head question writer and director of the VHSL state tournament, there has not even been a HINT of any movement to restrict participation in outside tournaments, to force other tournaments to play the VHSL format (the Beach District being very much the unfortunate exception). The VHSL website keeps a list of independent tournaments.

*Both* of the VHSL administrators I have worked with have told me (and I think have at least told teams) that teams complaining about TJ, Gov, Charlottesville, George Mason, and Radford need to work harder. When I have mentioned TJ and Gov doing well at college tournaments, the response has not been 'ZOMG they are playing college teams they need to stop,' it has been 'Wow! They are sure doing well!'

They have also said dynasties in Scholastic Bowl are the same as dynasties in wrestling (Grundy/Christiansburg), football (Hampton), field hockey (Cox), forensics (Madison County), and any other activity.

[theattachment]

How much of these threads ever are comparisons?

Illinois: NEVER
Every other one: half and half

[leapfrog314]

Hey, I don't think the problem is so much the IHSA -- sure, the IHSA State Series isn't top-notch quizbowl, and they have arcane by-laws that treat quizbowl like basketball. But as teams like New Trier, Auburn, Wheaton North, Loyola, etc. have demonstrated, teams can essentially behave outside the purview of the IHSA as much as they want, attending tournaments every weekend nearby and in other states, going to multiple national tournaments, and whatever else. And as Charlie points out, it's really difficult to persuade the IHSA to change with arguments of "quizbowl theory."

Also notice that tournaments are not obligated to use the IHSA's format. Kickoffs are moving to mACF bonuses next year, as New Trier's tournament did last year. Masonic will remain in IHSA format, but it will be written by Aegis, which will hopefully produce questions above Great Auk quality. ("Category: Woodrow Wilson.")

So honestly, while it's important to continue trying to fix the State Series, this isn't the biggest issue. I know it's been mentioned on this thread, but I think it bears repeating that not all players and coaches like what we call "good quizbowl." I have repeatedly heard from coaches that pyramidal questions make tournaments run too long (which does happen when the moderators are completely god-awful); that short questions are more exciting because they are unpredictable; that computational math is an important part of quizbowl (I am a math major and completely hate it, but this isn't my main point).

In conclusion, we have to just push for good tournaments and questions in the schedule. This has two effects: allowing teams to play on good questions, and slowly convincing others that "good quizbowl" really is better. (A friend of mine played on New Trier's quizbowl team a few times last year for the first time, and after only a few tournaments, she commented to me that she could really tell how much better "good questions" were, and that there actually was a reason to push for a certain kind of question.)

[Stained Diviner]

Mr. Riley just got good news from the IHSA. High school teams are allowed to play at EFT and other college tournaments.

[David Riley]

Still reading the latest...but I did get a letter from IHSA yesterday that gives Illinois teams the green light to play Oct 4. As we say in my homestate of Kentucky,



YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

This is your chance to play some of the old crowd, everyone - EFT October 4th is at U of I, and I'll be there with a Lawrence team or two.

Coming, Carlo/Nick/Luke/John?

[harpersferry]

It's on our calendar as potential, and I'd guess it's likely since it's practically next door as college tournaments go.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Congratulations Illinois, the permission to play college tournament is a pretty big triumph, especially since Illinois and Chicago are both known for hosting a lot.

[Siverus Snape]

Sweet action. We at Auburn will try our darnedest to make it down there. What decent (by which I mean appropriate for strong high school teams; I assume that all will have excellent questions) tournaments does UChicago hold?

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

It changes from year to year.

[BGSO]

Mr. Reinstein, I was looking around the IHSA website and came across the minutes from the advisory committee meeting and was wondering if the two "Administrative recommendations" rules 4-B-8 and 4-C-2 were approved for the season, the first one is obvious enough, but does the second one pertain to being able provide excess information: i.e. Charles Dickens vs. Dickens. Or does the rule allow for chaining answers: i.e. Dicken's Tale of two cities)

[Stained Diviner]

That part of the rules does not change. You are allowed to give two pieces of information, as long as both are correct and relevant (though of course only one of them is the answer to the question). Charles Dickens is considered one piece of information. Dickens' Tale of Two Cities is two pieces of information, and is correct if the answer is Dickens or A Tale of Two Cities, with one exception. The exception would be if the answer was Dickens and A Tale of Two Cities had nothing to do with the question. Also note that you could not say 'Charles Darnay in A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens' since that would be three pieces of information.

Of the two rules you mention, only 4-B-8 should be seen as a significant change, and it will only come up if good moderators or coaches use bad questions. 4-C-2 is just a rewording to encourage moderators to give students the benefit of the doubt in the situations we are describing--the stuff I said above would have also been true last year.

[marnold]

Sweet action. We at Auburn will try our darnedest to make it down there. What decent (by which I mean appropriate for strong high school teams; I assume that all will have excellent questions) tournaments does UChicago hold?

The only tournament we hold on a yearly basis is Chicago Open and all its side events. In terms of more suitable events for high schoolers, we've hosted EFT and ACF tournaments in the past, but this year EFT will be at UIUC and there's nothing definitive about hosting ACF. As it stands, the only tournament we're even considering bidding to host is ACF Regionals; that may be harder than the range you're looking for, but right now there's nothing specific about it anyway. We'll certainly post something in the College announcements/results section well in advance of any tournament we host.

[JackGlerum]

being able provide excess information: i.e. Charles Dickens vs. Dickens. Or does the rule allow for chaining answers: i.e. Dicken's Tale of two cities)

I've heard it called "blitzing" before. Usually happens on poorly written literature questions. For instance, a question might lead in with a list of characters, but goes on to ask for the writer that created them, not the work that they appear in.

[Tegan]

On the one hand, it is a sad testament that we have had to put so many rules into Illinois' game to protect players from bad questions .... and even sadder that there are many coaches who are mortified that these rules exist.

On the other, I hope the players can appreciate that the were people willing to stick up for them when the system won't really give them a voice.

[David Riley]

FYI--a schedule of Illinois(-area) tournaments will be available in the IHSSBCA fall newsletter. If you would like a preliminary copy, send me an email [email protected], and let me know of any tournaments that you know about but are not listed.

[JackGlerum]

a schedule of Illinois tournaments

fixed

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Um, South Bend is in Indiana, right? Also, WUHSAC should definitely be added to that document since it's right across the state line.

[Stained Diviner]

WUHSAC just got added. We include tournaments that are of interest to Illinois teams. Feel free to email Riley with additions if you have a firm date, and feel free to discuss the addition of tournaments that may be of borderline interest to Illinois teams either in this thread or by emailing me.

[JackGlerum]

Upon re-looking at the schedule, does anyone know what the deal is with Northwestern?

[Tegan]

Upon re-looking at the schedule, does anyone know what the deal is with Northwestern?

Oh, I'll tell you the deal with Northwestern, padawan .... but never in a public forum.

[Stained Diviner]

Northwestern has always held its tournament on the last Saturday in October, but they have not confirmed that date with us for next year. There could be a problem, since Illinois has switched its tournament to the same weekend.

[Siverus Snape]

U of I ABT written questions >>>> NAQT IS sets

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

Good luck to the IL HS team at this weekend's Chicago Open... except for when they play Carlo and I. Neener neener.

[AKKOLADE]

Neener neener.

what

[Siverus Snape]

Who's on the Illinois high school team?

Neener neener.

what

It must be a Wisconsin thing. We sure as hell didn't teach him that.

[harpersferry]

Who's on the Illinois high school team?

I think he's referring to the new trier+me team.

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

Neener neener.

what

It must be a Wisconsin thing. We sure as hell didn't teach him that.

Apparently that's no longer something you're allowed to pick up as a 5-year-old growing up in Des Plaines. Oh well.

But yeah, I mean the New Trier/John Brown team.

[Chichono]

Ouch. I'm the only HS player on that team, and our average age is entering college as a freshman. lol

[Awehrman]

Northwestern's deal is always a bit up in the air this time of year. We had some conflicts with Illinois over the date of our tournament last year too. Ultimately we kept that date (last weekend in October), but I'm not completely satisfied with it. We have been seeing a diminishing number of teams for several years, so I'm thinking a date change may help, but in the end it's not really my decision. Is there a better spot on the docket for us that has fewer conflicts? We've decided also to host a house-written (perhaps entirely written by me) pyramidal style middle school tournament in February. I think that tournament could potentially bring in more teams than any of our recent high school events. Part of the trouble with NU's club is that hardly any of the team is local, so we're spread around the country until school starts in late September. This means that our fall tournament planning is almost always a bit more scattered than we would like it to be.

[David Riley]

Nov 1 is better than Oct 25. Please email me [email protected] or [email protected] and I can tell you why Northwestern's tournament has declined in popularity over the last several years; I'd rather not do so on a public forum.

David Riley
Scholastic Bowl Coach
Loyola Academy
Wilmette

[BGSO]

EDIT: I need to say less stupid things

[the return of AHAN]

We've decided also to host a house-written (perhaps entirely written by me) pyramidal style middle school tournament in February. I think that tournament could potentially bring in more teams than any of our recent high school events.

ding-ding-ding!

Assuming you put out the info in late fall, you should get a fantastic middle school repsonse, as the tournament opportunities at that level are few and far between.

[Stained Diviner]

Out of 17 teams at Chicago Open,
Evan Adams, Carlo Angiuli, Bryce Durgin, and Greg Peterson got 10th.
John Brown, Ben Cohen, Jonah Greenthal, and Nick Matchen (with possible subbing by Sido) got 15th.

Considering the level of the field and the questions, these are strong finishes. Congrats.

[harpersferry]

Confirm said subbing by Sido. Including once on another team.
What I learned: I need to read more books. Also, HS teams should play college tournaments, because if you learned even a tenth of what was covered at CO (or a greater portion of a fall-level tournament) you'd dominate high school. It's a whole new world, and it's pretty exciting actually.

[JackGlerum]

http://www.pioneerlocal.com/wilmette/ne ... s1.article

A nice article about Team Illinois. Mike is the headline because it's from the Wilmette Life.

[gack1224]

Northwestern has always held its tournament on the last Saturday in October, but they have not confirmed that date with us for next year. There could be a problem, since Illinois has switched its tournament to the same weekend.

Has anyone heard anymore about this?