Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

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Do you support limiting access to off-topic channels of Discord to only non-high schoolers?

I am in high school and I support this measure.
71
21%
I am in high school and I do not support this measure.
80
24%
I am out of high school and I support this measure.
106
31%
I am out of high school and I do not support this measure.
82
24%
 
Total votes: 339

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Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Santa Claus »

Recently there's been discussion about boundaries on the Discord, which has largely crystallized around the question of whether high schoolers should be barred from all channels which are not directly quiz bowl related. In the interests of continuing this conversation in a less ephemeral medium, I have brought it to the forums. One can access the talk in the annals of the #server-discussion channel and in particular the "Boundaries Discussion" archived thread.

The key proposals:
Freddie O'Hara on Discord wrote: 2. Make the Off Topic header off limits to high schoolers [Near universal support]
3. Make the Pop Culture header off limits to high schoolers [Widespread support]
The major argument in favor of this split is that continuing to allow sustained casual interactions between high schoolers and non-high schoolers (or more relevantly, adults and children) has the potential for negative outcomes ranging from rudeness and inappropriateness to serious misconduct - acknowledging that reducing this is a priority means trying to stop it. With that in mind it is not practical, even with increased and more effective moderation, to monitor off-topic channels closely enough to prevent it; the only way, then, to meaningfully combat it is to take a more restrictive approach. The major argument against this is that it removes, or at least substantially hinders, the ability of high schoolers to participate in social aspects of the community.

I personally find the arguments in favor very convincing and think that this measure should be implemented. Conversely, I find many of the arguments advanced against it silly (in particular the accusation that it is paternalistic/pretentious, as well as all the discussion about the name of the server); of the remainder, I find the various attempts to say that potential misconduct isn't big enough of an issue to be misguided at best.

I am interested in seeing if there are any stronger arguments against this measure. I have also made this a poll to gauge community opinion and see whether opinion is indeed as split by age as many have suspected.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Father of the Ragdoll »

For context I voted that I approve of this among these options but hold a "nuance" stance

As I mentioned a few times on the discord, I am of the opinion that channels like food and pet photos are not an inherently inappropriate place for these sorts of interactions but that they need to have strong moderating presence that I do not know if we are able to implement that or if it is even worth the risk of messing it up.

If I ran the universe I would do a trial of closing off most channels but leaving a handful open to hsers with strict moderating and behavior policies and reevaluate after some amount of time (idk 2 months).

I also see why that is a potentially bad/overly convoluted/too risky/etc idea and am not opposed to just implementing a full drop of hs access to non-qb channels.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Ehtna »

Image

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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Santa Claus »

Ehtna wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:22 am silly meme
Format aside, do you really think this is an actual criticism of this policy? In my mind, supporting this argument and others of its ilk requires thinking that the issue (or even an issue) being considered here is "adults making age-inappropriate comments and high schoolers seeing them” when the focus of the discussion has been repeatedly and explicitly been directed at the question of boundaries (including in the OP of this thread) and high schoolers already are not allowed in channels where sensitive discussions are had.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Cheynem »

I also think the primary issue is boundaries, not necessarily talking about "adult" issues (although those play a role). I just don't think it's particularly appropriate or healthy for "adults" to be talking to high schoolers or minors about "off-topic" things, as innocuous as those could be. It presents the "adults" as peers or friends, when that isn't healthy, particularly since quizbowl has been dogged in the past involving older adults preying upon far younger people/high schoolers, even.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Sylvia Pankhurst »

This is a good idea. No one should be talking to Old men as much as the discord hsers constantly are. Even if nothing "inappropriate" is mentioned, the idea that you are peers IN ANY CAPACITY is already inappropriate.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Quantity of Books v. Kansas »

I'm in full support of limiting off-topic channels to adults. On a related note, is there any plan to increase the number of moderators/level of moderation in the Discord?
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Sylvia Pankhurst »

Also not to be overly harsh, but any adult whose main form of socialization or validation is the Discord is objectively The Problem here. Please make friends your own age and leave hsers and undergrads alone. It's creepy and sad.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Sylvia Pankhurst »

new proposal: you need college eligibility to be on the main discord, kick the geezers off to the "open" server
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by eygotem »

2. Make the Off Topic header off limits to high schoolers [Near universal support]
3. Make the Pop Culture header off limits to high schoolers [Widespread support]
By what metric is the support "near universal"? I've heard plenty of other less-active posters on the QB discord voice opposition to this in some form or another on other servers; like other discussions in the past (e.g. packet submission, difficulty of college nationals) the "majority" seems to be limited to the most vocal, active posters, who don't necessarily represent the general community.

Also, some of these vocal supporters seem to be motivated by a form of anti-high school prejudice, as seen by comments like
for example, high schoolers are annoying (when asked for reasons for the boundaries)

High school in bio lmao (in response to a comment about an adult's behavior)
As for the proposal itself, there are already restrictions in place prevent high schoolers from viewing the most sensitive channels like politics and interpersonal. Allowing high schoolers to discuss quiz bowl but nothing else with adults seems contradictory - you're not preventing interaction, simply restricting what they're allowed to talk about. The channels are moderated well enough that I imagine misconduct would be taking place through DMs or other private spaces, not #off-topic.

The HS quizbowl server already restricts college students from the #general channel; the planned changes would essentially turn the main QB discord into a server for college students and alumni. There's already a far larger age gap between those alumni and undergrads, than that between undergrads and high schoolers - a topic that's been brought up on Discord quite a bit.

The quizbowl server is meant to be a community server, not a college server. Plenty of other discords I'm part of don't try to impose this sort of barrier (and I can see this furthering the perception of college quizbowl being an exclusionary cabal). There can certainly be some discussion between adults and high schoolers when standards of behavior are being followed. Also, there's no reason why there can't be a publicly advertised college quizbowl server that's separate from the main one.

Age-based boundaries are well and good. But, is targeting high schoolers with top-down restrictions, while continuing to welcome much older alumni, really the best way to set them up?
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Cheynem »

eygotem wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:09 pm
The HS quizbowl server already restricts college students from the #general channel; the planned changes would essentially turn the main QB discord into a server for college students and alumni. There's already a far larger age gap between those alumni and undergrads, than that between undergrads and high schoolers - a topic that's been brought up on Discord quite a bit.
Aren't the changes restricting high schoolers from ONLY the off-topic sections? How would that impact the main QB discord's many other channels that would still allow high schoolers?

I do think that everyone is kind of dancing around the main point, which Lauren gets at--we might really need to create a channel solely devoted to quizbowl talk, closely moderate that, and kick all the other social spaces (including quizbowl-adjacent chatter like talking about old history or socialization) to their own "age groups" or "social groups" (i.e., high school age, college student, retired).
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by KAluru »

I don't particularly understand exactly what the opinion is on separation by age instead of what level of schooling, there are high schoolers who are much closer in age to college students than other high schoolers, and even within college the issue of undergraduates vs graduate students. And then there is also the age separation between alumni and college students.

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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Alejandro »

The poll was spammed by newly created accounts. Those votes have been removed and those IPs have been banned, and new users can no longer vote in polls. I've updated the database, but in case phpBB decides not to refresh the numbers, here is the current total:

I am in high school and I support this measure. [2]
I am in high school and I do not support this measure. [6]
I am out of high school and I support this measure. [55]
I am out of high school and I do not support this measure. [21]
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Sylvia Pankhurst »

eygotem wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:09 pm
The quizbowl server is meant to be a community server, not a college server. Plenty of other discords I'm part of don't try to impose this sort of barrier (and I can see this furthering the perception of college quizbowl being an exclusionary cabal). There can certainly be some discussion between adults and high schoolers when standards of behavior are being followed. Also, there's no reason why there can't be a publicly advertised college quizbowl server that's separate from the main one.

Age-based boundaries are well and good. But, is targeting high schoolers with top-down restrictions, while continuing to welcome much older alumni, really the best way to set them up?
ok lets not pretend that the rest of discord is the kind of community we want to be. Grooming is at least rampant on discord in general as it is in qb, which is one of the issues we're trying to solve with this measure. This is not a measure to exclude high schoolers from a cabal, but rather to keep them away from the adults in quizbowl who take advantage of their position within the community relative to younger players.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Santa Claus »

eygotem wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:09 pm
2. Make the Off Topic header off limits to high schoolers [Near universal support]
3. Make the Pop Culture header off limits to high schoolers [Widespread support]
By what metric is the support "near universal"? I've heard plenty of other less-active posters on the QB discord voice opposition to this in some form or another on other servers; like other discussions in the past (e.g. packet submission, difficulty of college nationals) the "majority" seems to be limited to the most vocal, active posters, who don't necessarily represent the general community.
That excerpt is in fact a direct quote of someone else's summary, which is also why it starts numbering at 2. It also really doesn't matter. This thread exists to cover any remaining ground, so all these voices of opposition should advance their arguments here (or ask someone to relate them).
As for the proposal itself, there are already restrictions in place prevent high schoolers from viewing the most sensitive channels like politics and interpersonal. Allowing high schoolers to discuss quiz bowl but nothing else with adults seems contradictory - you're not preventing interaction, simply restricting what they're allowed to talk about.
It shouldn't be taken as a given that people should be allowed to discuss quiz bowl across high school/college boundaries, but the consensus is that it can be moderated sufficiently for it to be fine. If anything is contradictory about the server, it's not that children can't talk to adults about off-topic things - it's that anyone can at all. It is a concession made because of the Discord's origins in the IRC and the dynamic nature of human communication and it is subject to the same question of boundaries as quiz bowl discussions in general - the difference is that an audience spanning a range of ages is hardly as essential when talking about college football than when talking about quiz bowl in the Quizbowl Discord.
The channels are moderated well enough that I imagine misconduct would be taking place through DMs or other private spaces, not #off-topic.

[...]

There can certainly be some discussion between adults and high schoolers when standards of behavior are being followed.
Every statement like this ends up sounding tone-deaf to me. People have explicitly described the boundary problems that happen in even more moderated social spaces - even if the majority came from other avenues, limiting high schoolers from off-topic spaces would undeniable reduce their number.
The HS quizbowl server already restricts college students from the #general channel; the planned changes would essentially turn the main QB discord into a server for college students and alumni.
No, it would make it a place where the interactions between adults and children could be reasonably monitored. And besides, how many times does it need to be said that high schoolers can still come to the main server to discuss quiz bowl (high school or otherwise)? If they choose not to enter a space because they're no longer allowed to talk about movies or something, that's their perogative. But let's not act like high schoolers are not coming to the main Discord because of changes like this.
The quizbowl server is meant to be a community server, not a college server. Plenty of other discords I'm part of don't try to impose this sort of barrier
Good for whatever server you're describing that they haven't had major enough misconduct issues to have to seriously consider imposing major systematic changes to combat it; maybe they should consider doing it anyways.
(and I can see this furthering the perception of college quizbowl being an exclusionary cabal)
I literally don't care.
There's already a far larger age gap between those alumni and undergrads, than that between undergrads and high schoolers - a topic that's been brought up on Discord quite a bit.

[...]

Age-based boundaries are well and good. But, is targeting high schoolers with top-down restrictions, while continuing to welcome much older alumni, really the best way to set them up?
This is not an argument for allowing high schoolers to remain in these spaces but for further limiting the people allowed, something Lauren has very eloquently advocated for above.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by 1.82 »

Sylvia Pankhurst wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:09 pm new proposal: you need college eligibility to be on the main discord, kick the geezers off to the "open" server
The idea that it's somehow inappropriate for adults to be interacting with other adults betrays a complete misunderstanding of why it is that high school students and adults are not peers.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Sylvia Pankhurst »

Amiable Vitriol wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:16 pm
Befriending high schoolers for being good at quizbowl has the added effect (implicit in this thread, but perhaps necessary to explicitly state) of incentivizing high school friendships with adults; if you get in with the old people, it means you’re good at quizbowl. That can further cloud minors’ judgment about what healthy interactions with adults look like and further discourage them from questioning an unhealthy dynamic.

Additionally, I think something quizbowl adults need to remember is that minors are by and large really bad at setting boundaries for themselves. They’re looking to you to do that. Just because a young person says they want to be included in a social space, or reassure you that they feel safe, doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s something that should happen— young people want lots of things, and, as adults, it is sometimes your responsibility to say no!

Thinking back to when I was fourteen, there were definitely times when I enjoyed (inappropriate) attention I was getting from older quizbowlers and, if I had been asked, would have reassured them that it was fine and good. However, I now look back at some of those interactions as unhealthy and even traumatic, because I am now an adult who realizes just how young a fourteen year old is, and how much attention from adults really damaged my social development as a teenager.

So, adults, sometimes sixteen year olds are going to resent you or think you’re uncool for excluding them from your groupchat of twenty somethings or whatever. And you know what? That’s okay! Quite frankly, a boundary that’s difficult to set might be even more necessary than an easy one.
this seemed like it should be in this thread too.
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Re: Boundaries and Being Off-topic on the Discord

Post by Cheynem »

(This is kind of a scattershot post, so I apologize):

My feelings on high schooler/adult interactions are already explicated above, so this is more about the idea of "older people" dominating social spaces like the Discord, which some posts here and some in the Discord have addressed.

I will certainly admit I'm one of the older people in the quizbowl Discord and that I talk a lot there. Most of my "day job" involves quizbowl, I have a great love for the game, and I enjoy talking about the game (I also personally know a good deal of the people in Discord, having played with them, against them, or worked with them on quizbowl projects). I don't inherently think it's bad that I, someone in my late 30s, is still involved in quizbowl.

I'll also say that I didn't really have any thoughts on what the quizbowl Discord was supposed to be when I joined. Someone linked, I joined, and in my mind, this was a lot like the old quizbowl IRC in which there were people of all sorts of life experiences and quizbowl statuses.

I have taken some of the criticisms of older people dominating the social space of the Discord to heart. I'm used to very much being on various social Discords and jumping around, talking to my friends or other social communities very quickly, so I was treating quizbowl in the same way, rapidly posting and treating people there like peers. I think that's okay in some cases, but I also understand that can lead to problematic behavior. I'd like to try to move some of the more old-dominated discussions like reminiscing about the past or historical conversations, perhaps, to other places. I'd like to not necessarily weigh in all the time on things that don't affect me as a non-active player. I'm not saying I'm going to do a good job at this immediately, but it is something I am consciously trying to think about now. I do think that trying at least somewhat to split the social spaces between older people and younger players may be very good ideas.

I don't pretend that I really know how this presence or dominance drives people away. But I think I get it a little better now.

Quizbowl is still bad about boundaries. I haven't engaged in behavior like DMing high schoolers or stuff like that, but there are plenty of times when I've caught myself, thinking--how well do I really know this person? Why am I talking to them like they're a peer or someone I've met in real life? And I do think Lauren and many others are correct about trying to reduce chances for these boundaries to be broken.

I was hurt by the harsh nature of some of the posts in Discord and on these forums about older people being involved in quizbowl. I realize that some are for rhetorical effect and my point is not to negate the point being made because my feelings got hurt. But I also want to be honest--they did hurt. I do have friends outside of the game. I don't hang out in the Discord because this is my entire identity and I'm obsessed with talking to undergraduates. I love quizbowl and I love the friends I've made in it, and particularly in the last few years when it became my career (and especially during the pandemic year), it has been a good social outlet in general. And my hope is that we can work out ways to better create a healthier, more welcoming place on Discord for everyone--that resorting to kind of over generalizations about who older people are and what they are doing in Discord may be counter-productive. Again, I want to be very clear that I am NOT saying those posts are invalid because they made me sad.

Sorry for the rambling, but I've been thinking about this a lot the last few days.
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